Supporters accuse him of turning against his closest allies and causing a firebomb. House democrats have now issued subpoenas to the pentagon as well as the office for management and budget in key offices in ukraine which allows the president to hold military missions. This comes as a second whistleblower has now come forward, claiming to have firsthand knowledge to support claims made by the original whistleblower, causing some republicans to now scramble as they try to defend the president s actions, while other republicans are staying silent. In the meantime, Energy Secretary rick perry is now responding to President Trump who says it was perry who pressured him to call ukraines president on july 25th. But perry says his push was for the leaders to talk about energy. For the president of the United States to be comfortable, mr. President , you can feel assured this country is headed in the right direction. Absolutely. I asked the president multiple times, mr. President , we think it is in the United States and in ukraines best interest that you and the president of ukraine have conversations, that you discuss the options that are there. Our Kaitlan Collins is at the white house. Tell us what youre hearing, kaitlan. Reporter all of this got started last week where the president phoned in and said he didnt even want to make that july call to the ukranian president in the first place. Instead he told these lawmakers it was the Energy Secretary, rick perry, who pushed him to do so. And there, of course, you see perry confirming, yes, he did push the president to do so, but he said it wasnt about the bidens. He wanted President Trump to call the ukranian president to have a discussion about corruption, about transparency. Rick perry is someone who has been back and forth to ukraine, i think, three times now that hes visited. In another interview hes saying, no, i didnt bring up the bidens during this sitdown with the ukranian president , and today in a statement, his spokesperson is confirming that, saying that in all the conversations hes had with these ukranian officials, including the president , they say hunter biden and joe biden have never come up during any of those conversations. Of course, the question will be whether or not the ukranians were well aware that this is something the president wanted them to look at while they were having these discussions with rick perry. And the question Going Forward will be, are House Democrats going to try to sit down with the Energy Secretary, someone who has really managed to avoid the president s ire for some time now that hes been in this cabinet position . The question now will be whether or not the president continues to try to use him as a scap derks goa scapegoat, for this ukranian call and if the republicans will support him. The president reportedly telling china to investigate the biden family. It was a joke, he says, he didnt really mean it. We have the daily beast and gloria borger. Congressman jordan said it. This is actually something trump has used before when he was talking about russia, if youre listening about the clinton emails. Whats your reaction to this . Hes such a cutup, isnt he, donald trump . Hes full of jokes. I looked back at his answer to the question from mueller and the emails and what his writers wrote was, i made the statement in jest, as was apparent to any objective objecter. It wasnt apparent to any objective observer, and talking about trade negotiations, saying, i think it would be okay for you to investigate the bidens, yori dont think thats funny. You can believe its a perfect call or you can take the pompeo route that quid pro quo is really another way of saying compromise in diplomacy, or you could take the marco rubio, its all just a joke line. Again, i dont think china or ukraine thinks its a joke when the president asks them to do something. Lets assume for a minute that hes just trolling us all and he is joking about things that are serious. I think that makes him unfit for the presidency. Best case scenario, you should get rid of him because hes joking about very serious things that would be really inappropriate for a president to joke about. We dont know what he has said to the chinese privately at this point. We know some of what he said about hong kong, for example, but, you know, there is still more parts of this onion to be peeled, and well find out what kind of joke it was. The thing about donald trump is he often says things publicly that he also says privately. I want to list ton what was really a key moment over the weekend on the sunday shows. This is one of the president s supporters, senator ron johnson. This is what he said on meet the press. I just want the truth. The American People want the truth. So do you not trust the fbi, you dont trust the cia . No, i dont. Absolutely not. I dont trust any of these guys in the obama administration. Im just curious, do you trust them now . Who are you talking about . The cia and the fbi. I dont trust andy mccabe. I dont trust james comey, i dont trust peter strzok, i dont trust john brennan. He named people who arent there anymore as part of the Intelligence Community. That said, hes also playing into this idea that everyone in the Intelligence Community is like a holdover from the obama administration, is a total political hack, which anyone with minimal exposure to this Community Knows that is total the not whats going on here. Whats the effect of the senator saying this . First of all, i think this is a continuation of the last question which is republicans throwing out all sorts of in some cases mutually exclusive theories as to what happens and how to explain this and how to be an apologist. This is a real departure of the republican party, which was once thought of as the party of law and order, and in some ways the republican brand, all the things you thought you knew about republican parties, morals and law and order. If you dont trust the media, if the media is all fake news, and you also dont trust the Intelligence Community or Law Enforcement, at some point you run out of people that you might trust other than donald trump. If youve essentially nullified all these other institutions that are supposed to hold powerful people accountable, who is left to do that . This is a moment in time, but whats the longterm effect of doing that, gloria . Well, i think the republican brand, such as it was, is gone. And i think republicans now have to figure out what their party stands for. This is a party that stood for National Security, that backed the fbi and the cia. Now the president is announcing no presence in syria. There is no the kurds, hong kong, human rights. There seems to be no there there. Its about President Trump which is different from the republican party. I think what ron johnson was doing, by the way, was playing to donald trump. Because he got himself in a little bit of trouble by saying, well, i winced when i was told there might be some linkage between he didnt want there to be a linkage between military aid, right . Exactly. He had to clean that up with trump. He had to clean that up with trump, because trump, as you can tell from his twitter feed, is watching every television show. I will say, that was a demonstration of what republicans are up against with President Trump to watch ron johnson backpedal like that. Gloria, matt, thank you so much. I appreciate it. What is the significance of a second whistleblower coming forward and what can he or she provide . Plus, democrats confronted at home. Why some constituents are challenging their democratic lawmakers impeachment push. And even republicans bashing the president for abandoning the american backfires who helped fight against isis. Why he says hes betraying them and leaving them to die. You crad the chainsaws. Smart. Yeah. Ok. If youre in a horror movie, you make poor decisions. Its what you do. This was a good idea. Shhhh. Im being quiet. Youre breathing on me if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. Its what you do. Lets go to the cemetery burger i want a sugar cookie i want a bucket of chicken i want. Its the easiest, because its the cheesiest kraft. For the win win. Billions of problems. Morning breath . Garlic breath . Stinky breath . Theres a therabreath for you. Therabreath fresh breath oral rinse instantly fights all types of bad breath and works for 24 hours. So you can. Breathe easy. Theres therabreath at walmart. Senate Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell is leaving the prospects of impeachment for President Trump as a fundraising plea for his own reelection bid. In a new ad, mcconnell says as majority leader hell shut down the impeachment. We have leader steve cohen with us right now. Hes on the judiciary house committee. Thank you for joining us. Nice to be with you. Whats your reaction to mcconnell saying hell block impeachment and fundraising off of this . Well, im not surprised. I think mitch always wanted to be an offensive guard on a Football Team because thats all he does is block. He blocked merrill garlands appointment to the Supreme Court which i think was unprecedented and improper. Bills we passed on Prescription Drug prices, on reasonable gun laws, on ethics laws have been blocked by him. And now hes going to block the impeachment. So, yeah, hes trying to be the trophy winner as the greatest blocking back in history, blocking lineman. Energy secretary rick perry is now defending himself because the president has said he was the reason for the call with ukraines president. Perry today said he absolutely urged the president to call ukraine but thought the call should be about energy partnerships. He said he never mentioned the biden family. Who do you believe here . I believe rick perry. I think hes one of the few people in the cabinet who i found to be a straight shooter and i found to be a very nice guy. The president , of course, has a track record that is probably the worst of anybody in history. If he was a horse in the racing form, i think they would give him the worst track rating imaginable. Hes a provericater. I want to ask what youre watching on recess. You know these town halls are being held in other districts. Lets look at melissa slotkins town hall. Myself and six others in the class of congress all former military or former cia wrote a joint oped and came out in support of an impeachment inquiry. And i wanted you to know from me i wanted you to know from me when you fell off a cliff for me was when you joined the fight. Hes the fourth president in history to be impeached, and to impeach him on Something Like this is really stretching it. So we get a sense there for congresswoman slotkin of just the mixed response shes getting. How does your caucus plan to inform constituents, and should some democratic members understand this likely could cost them their jobs . Well, i think this twoweek break, which i was not particularly in favor of but i think its been productive, adam schiff and the Intelligence Committee has stayed focused on this, as hasie jij Elijah Cummings with the president dealing with an International Situation and a country that promised military aid as an abuse of power condition on this investigation of his rival, joe biden. I know it could be difficult in some peoples districts. I listened to congresswoman slotkin and i think she and her colleagues did the country a service by coming together and writing that oped and describing their position. Theyre all former navy, cia intelligence people. They told why they resisted impeachment in the past but this action calling a foreign power in conditioning, and wed like you to do a favor and cut off the military aid they needed was do you think this will cost some of the colleagues their jobs . I dont think so, because i think it was the right thing to do, that the president should be impeached for doing this its against all laws. George washington warned us as far back as his election not to get involved with foreign entities. American elections are supposed to be determined by americans. And we shouldnt be having russians involved. Russia was involved. The cia, the fbi, the justice department, the Mueller Report all said it. Trump still doesnt believe it. And now apparently senator johnson doesnt believe it. We cant be operating in an area where some people hear the truth and some people refuse to hear the truth and get what they call fake news and they just discount the truth. Slotkins town hall, most of the people were supportive of her position, i believe. There were people in hot hats that yelled out and hollered, but they were the minority in that crowd. She handled it very, very well. They did this on the Affordable Care act and came out in town halls and made their voices heard but in stronger numbers. That was a strong response. Slotkin wasnt that strong and the truth is i want to be clear on what we just watched, congressman. There were constituents there who were not wearing red hats and they were asking thoughtful questions and they had concerns. I just want to be clear about that. I do, unfortunately, congressman, im out of time, so we will, of course, see you again very soon. Congressman steve cohen, thank you very much. Brianna, i watched it, too, and she handled it well and they were not the majority in that crowd. But i think people will support congresspeople that support holding up their hoet oath in supporting the constitution, and thats what america is about. Congressman, thank you. Very good to see you. Youre welcome. So even though the president seems to be his own whistleblower, another one has come forward. Well have the details. Plus with his explosive decision of pulling out of north syria, the president is accused of leaving americanbacked 40s forces to die in a slaughter. Some things are too important to do yourself. Get customized security with 24 7 monitoring from xfinity home. Awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Call, click or visit a store today. Tabbed in the back. Thats how kurds in syria are describing a stunning and sudden policy reversal by President Trump. The white house announced the withdrawal last night of use troops in north syria along the border with turkey, effectively clearing the way for an invasion by turkey forces. Turkey is targeting kurdish fighters who worked with the u. S. Troops to defeat isis in the region. President trump says the kurds were paid for their help and the u. S. Will only fight when it benefits the u. S. But just a few months ago, the president was adamant that the u. S. Would protect the kurds. He had a 65,000man army at the border and he was going to wipe out the kurds who helped us with isis. We took out the caliphate. We have 100 of the caliphate. And i called him and i asked him not to do it. They are, i guess, natural enemies of his or turkey, and he hasnt done it. They were lined up to go out and wipe out the people that we just defeated the isis caliphate with, and i said, you cant do that. And he didnt do it. President trump is already getting pushback from within his own party. Senator Lindsey Graham who is usually a staunch trump defender, criticized the decision. I expect an american president to do whats in our National Security interests. Its never in our National Security interest to abandon an ally who has helped us fight isis. Its never in our National Security interest to create conditions for the reemergent devices. And President Trumps former ambassador to the United Nations nikki haley was even more blunt significant leaving the kurds to die is a big mistake. With us now is Major General sparks, he is a commander general with the Navy Intelligence center. He has a lot of experience in this area. I want to start with these buffer zones were seeing. What does turkey control . What do they want to grab here . What turkey is trying to achieve is this buffer zone along the border here with syria, primarily because they want some standoff with the kurds. As has been indicated, the kurds, in multiple forms, have been doing a lot of heavy lifting for the United States in our desire to try to eliminate isis. Isis is now isolated. The caliphate is essentially destroyed. They still remain in syria. But turkey would like to have this border so that there is room for them to have a safe zone because turkey views the kurds you know, 20 of the turki turkish population is kurds. They have labeled them a terror organization. Thats what turkey is trying to achieve. So isis is isolated, the caliphate is destroyed, but what will this do to isis . Whats the concern . The purpose of the buffer zone is exactly to allow turkey has less to do with isis and more to do with turkeys relationship with the kurds and to achieve some standoff, primarily. Turkey feels like it can take care of itself. What it doesnt want to have to do is be in a position to have to go after kurds and have an International Body to keep the kurds away from turkey. The president says right now he doesnt have anything off limits, he is going to destroy the turkish economy. Quite bold. What do you make of this . Turkey has indicated its got a pretty independent stance globally in terms of its relationship. Lets be frank. Turkey is a nato partner. The United States and nato are in a better position with turkey on our southeastern flank there. And turkey has a burgeoning relationship with iran and they have tradia relationship with r. That is against what were trying to achieve. When you hear Ambassador Nikki Haley say were leaving the kurds to die, this is our american forces. What message does this send to other potential future allies . Thats the problem. The kurds did tremendous fighting not only on seizure objective but on their own to go after isis. We had a shared view in terms of the challenges of isis. And the kurds could do tactfully things we couldnt. Those who are on the fence need to decide if the United States is a place they want to be, be aligned. We want them on our side. This sends a lot of doubt in their mind when theyre making those decisions. How sddoes the u. S. Treat thr frechblt friends. Thank you. Thank you. What the whistleblower coming forward means for impeachment of President Trump. One gop senator casting doubt on the credibility of the cia and the fbi. Biopharmaceutical researchers. Pursuing lifechanging cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs. Like a way to fight cancer by arming a patients own tcells. Because its not just about the next breakthrough. Its all the ones after that. You may be at increased risk for Pneumococcal Pneumonia a potentially serious bacterial lung disease that can disrupt your life for weeks. In severe cases, Pneumococcal Pneumonia can put you in the hospital. It can hit quickly, without warning, making you miss out on what matters most. 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Can be a little more. Like plants. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Hour 36 in the stakeout. Limu emu doug as soon as the homeowners arrive, well inform them that Liberty Mutual customizes home insurance, so theyll only pay for what they need. Your turn to keep watch, limu. Wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. We are back with the bombshell revelation that not one, but two, whistleblowers have come forward with accusations on the president and his interactions with ukraine. Joining me now to discuss is National Security analyst and a specialist in whistleblowing cases, calvin. We know there is one whistleblower, but the new report talks about two whistleblowers. What do you make of that . These whistleblowers share solidarity with one another. These are all Government Employees that presumably worked together inside the administration at one point. The fact a second whistleblower is coming out in a very public way through the public media acknowledging the whistleblowers presence, that just shows solidarity that these concerns were so big that they had to be mentioned by, not just one person, but two. This person is weighing on this persons conscience so much that they had to make a whistleblower disclosure or at least start the process. Do you think theres more than two . I think there could be. The intelligence general, the watchdog for first revealing the whistleblowers complaint, interviewed multiple whistleblowemployees with relevant knowledge. These people could possibly be whistleblowers and could have their own knowledge. What if theres more than two . Is there strength in numbers here . There certainly is. The Inspector General sub stant waited the first whistleblowers complaint as credible. That means if other people are coming out and saying the same thing, thats just a green check mark of the credibility of the first whistleblower and its more facts for the congressional committees to actually look into as part of the impeachment inquiry. Did you find it interesting the attorneys stressed firsthand knowledge . One of the attack lines, although it doesnt actually legally matter, republicans have said, oh, this is just hearsay of this first whistleblower that weve seen, hes just reporting things hes heard about the conversation. Even though what he reported, actually, he was very closely, like exactly to the transcript. Whats with this firsthand knowledge claim . I think that is a response to the president s defenders here. They are all saying the first whistleblower did not have firsthand knowledge, which, again, is a meaningless, nonlegal description. But the fact the attorneys are saying this whistleblower has firsthand knowledge is important. Thats something the whistleblowers can use to eit democrats can use to impeach or not impeach the president. Irvin, thank you. Now theyre going to the credibility of the top Law Enforcement agencies. I just want the truth. The American People want the truth. You dont trust the fbi, you dont trust the cia . No, i dont. After james comey, ai dont trut any of these guys in the obama administration. Do you trust them now . No, i didnt trust thecm bac then. Former cia operative robert baer is joining me now. Bob, how concerning is it for the chairman of the Homeland Security to be saying this . Its very concerning. They demoralized the federal government, especially the fbi. Th these hard right conspiracy theorists are claiming there is a deep state, that there is an underground program defining this. You have them saying, should i risk my retirement to go after one of these subjects because theyre truly worried about ending up like the former fbi director mccabe, under some sort of indictment or threat. Demoralizing, thats all i can tell you. What do members of the Intelligence Community, when they hear things like this, do . Do they just plod along and kind of do their jobs and keep their ears closed and do the work . Or are they demoralized . Or is it both . Theyre demoralized. Lets say there is a russian case that comes up. If youre an fbi agent, should you take it on or just turn the guy away . I cant give you specifics, but in a lot of cases theyre turning them away. This is doing major damage to the u. S. Intelligence. You imagine they are literally selfediting the cases they take up because of where the president is on these issues . I know they are for a fact. They dont want to touch it. Theyre very worried. Theyre saying, look, this is the commander in chief. We take orders from the commander in chief. Chief Law Enforcement officer. And if he doesnt care about the facts involving russia or north korea or iran or the rest of it, its not our business to change this. And thats the state of the government. I have never seen it so bad. So what does that mean for the National Security of the u. S. When that happens . It means were less safe. Lets take syria, pulling out of syria. Were less safe. This president is endangering lives by closing off the Intelligence Community, because it is factbased. He doesnt like the facts and its hurting us. Bob baer, thank you so much. Rereally appreciate your perspecti perspective on this. The Supreme Court packed with cases on a bunch of hot button topics, but will they take up a land case of how they define rape . We have a case that is letting rapists walk free, next. Versibl. Ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. Humira can help stop the clock. 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Good could have used a little salt. Visit geico. Com and see how easy saving on renters insurance can be. Itheres my career. s more to me than hiv. My cause. And creating my dream home. Im a work in progress. So much goes into who i am. Hiv medicine is one part of it. Prescription dovato is for adults who are starting hiv1 treatment and who arent resistant to either of the medicines dolutegravir or lamivudine. Dovato has 2 medicines in 1 pill to help you reach and then stay undetectable. So your hiv can be controlled with fewer medicines while taking dovato. You can take dovato anytime of day with food or without. Dont take dovato if youre allergic to any of its ingredients or if you take dofetilide. If you have hepatitis b, it can change during treatment with dovato and become harder to treat. Your hepatitis b may get worse or become lifethreatening if you stop taking dovato. So do not stop dovato without talking to your doctor. Serious side effects can occur, including allergic reactions, liver problems, and liver failure. Lifethreatening side effects include lactic acid buildup and severe liver problems. If you have a rash and other symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking dovato and get medical help right away. Tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis b or c. Dont use dovato if you plan to become pregnant or during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy since one of its ingredients may harm your unborn baby. Your doctor should do a pregnancy test before starting dovato. Use effective Birth Control while taking dovato. The most common side effects are headache, diarrhea, nausea, trouble sleeping, and tiredness. So much goes into who i am and hope to be. Ask your doctor if starting hiv treatment with dovato is right for you. Our next story is a cnn special report about military sexual assault, so a warning that what you are about to hear is graphic. As the Supreme Court begins its new term today, it will decide whether to take up a landmark case on how the military prosecutes rape. At issue are rapes and assaults that happened between 1986 and 2006. It sometimes takes years for victims to come forward. The Supreme Court are siding with rape victims, including one who raped two women who had them thrown out because of a ruling from a different court. Do they overrule the military Justice System . I sat down with three women whose lives have been turned insideout by this military court decision. Ive been asked over and over and over and over and over again, what is it that you want . My answer has been the truth to be told. Jennifer elmores father is retired twostar general james grazioplane. She said she was three years old when she first remembers him sexually abusing her. We came home from visiting my grandmother in upstate new york. He took my underwear down and he masturbated himself, touching me. I knew not really what was happening, but i knew i was terrified and this was very bad. The abuse escalated to rapes, she says, and continued for years. In 1986, her mother, ann marie, wrote to a Family Member that her husband was taking perverted libertys with my child and had made an attempt at sexually molesting jennifer. She was sleeping, thank god, and i caught him before he got started. Anne marie grazioplane, who was still married, told them her words had been distorted. They charged the general with three counts of rape but he never saw his day in court. Thats because the military Appeals Court ruled in a separate case that states rapes between 1986 and 2006 will be stopped. In total they declined to prosecute at least ten alleged rapes from that time period. Five victims saw military courts vacate them. They get their rank back, they get their benefits back. They also dont have to register as a sex offender. One of the instructors, Sergeant Richard collins, raped and beat her i hit him in the face and he became enraged, he punched me in my face, when i woke up he was inside of me. Collins was sentenced to 16 years in prison, he served just two before beak released. After it happened, i didnt think anyone would believe me. D. K. Whose identity cnn is not disclosing was raped in 2005. I told him no, i didnt want to. The next morning when i woke up, i was in a lot of pain, i had blood all over me. I had bruises on my thighs, i was extremely swollen, i couldnt sit down. Then she called Michael Briggs on the phone. You probably remember me as anna yes. Air force investigators were recording the call. You raped me, you destroyed me. For eight years i have had to live with this by myself. I cant talk about it, i cant tell anybody. You took everything from me. Why . I didnt know the repercussions, and even if i did, i wasnt i was selfish. I was i need to hear you say youre sorry for raping me. I am sorry, i have been sorry, i will always be sorry. For what i did to you. Briggs was convicted in 2014 but a Court Dismissed his conviction this year. An attorney for briggs says he maintains his innocence. Now, the Trump Administration has asked the Supreme Court to overrule the top military Appeals Court. The demepartments goal is t make sure that justice was served. Hes arguing that congress did not intend for there to be a statute of limitations for sexual assaults in the military, at the time that d. K. And harmony were raped. What the government is saying is, first of all, the armed forces got it wrong, and the Supreme Court should correct that, but also in a larger sense, is saying, this is very important to larger military policy. The military declined to comment on ongoing legal matters. But the pentagon is struggling to confront an epidemic. Reports of sexual assaults have risen dramatically in the armed forces. Up 38 from 2016 to 2018. Dawn christiansen was chief prosecutor until 2014. And now advocates for victims of military sexual assault. He says the military needs to hold rapists accountable. If a rapist knows that he or she will never be held accountable. They are disincentivized to change. It sends a bad message to the entire force that this is something we dont care about. Jennifer has sought justice elsewhere, in virginia, where there is no statute of limitations for rape. The retired general is scheduled to stand trial in january on multiple rape counts, he has yet to enter a plea. Im grateful i have a chance that others have not gotten who are struggling with essentially being told youre not worth, which is what a victim hears and knows, youre not worth something different. For d. K. And harmony, all they can do is wait and watch the Supreme Court in the hope it will decide to hear their cases. If the Supreme Court chooses to take on these cases, it would be a first. The justices weighing in on Sexual Misconduct in the me too era, all with its newest Justice Brett kavanaugh who wrooz confirmed last fall, amid allegations that he sexually assaulted a woman when he was in high school. With another whistleblower coming forward now, republicans are trying to defend the president s demands that Foreign Countries investigate foreign rivals by saying its all a joke. How the president s defense has responded to this. You dont need to go anywhere dad, this is your home. The best home to be in is your own. Home instead offers personalized Inhome Services for your loved ones. Home instead senior care. To us, its personal. Home isome things are too important to do yourself. Get customized security with 24 7 monitoring from xfinity home. Awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Call, click or visit a store today. Hi, im brooke baldwin, youre watching cnn, for President Trump and his allies, the push to dismiss concerns of the whistleblower with the president of the ukraine just got harder, this is why. A second whistle blower has now stepped forward, someone with firsthand knowledge of the conduct described. That is according to attorney mark zaid who is representing the first whistleblower. And this person who is a member of the Intelligence Community has spoken with the Intelligence CommunityInspector General. That as three house subpoena, the pentagon and the White House Budget Office you can add rick perry to the list of top Trump Officials ensnared in this whole thing. Let me take you back to friday, and that phone call about that perfect call between House Republicans and President Trump. In a bit of a plot twist, the president told lawmakers he didnt want to talk to zielinski, despite