Pelosi, against beginning impeachment proceedings, may begin to rethink their reluctance. Lets go to manu raju who joins us on the hill. We all remember the fireworks three weeks ago. The attorney general did the same thing to the same committee. So more fireworks on tap today . No question about it. Expect democrats to express their outrage at what they believe is what theyre calling a lawlessstration, not listening to subpoenas, and the white house instructing don mcgahn not to show up because they say hes not to be compelled to testify because hes a senior level white house aide, and expect democrats to lay out their next steps. Namely to hold don mcgahn in contempt, along with bill barr and others, and those votes could happen in a matter of days. The fireworks are about to begin, and this is just the beginning of the process as democrats grapple with what to do now that the administration is saying no to all of their demands. Now, this is happening, manu, as you have more democrats pushing in defiance of their leadership to begin an impeachment inquiry. Does mccgahns nonappearance today in effect give more ammunition to them . Essentially, yes. A number of democrats i have spoken to from top members rank and file members, all say its time to start an impeachment inquiry. Do you believe that its an impeachment inquiry is warranted now given the stonewalling from the administration . I think the administration is certainly pushing the congress in that direction. I think its time. Yeah, i think it is. I was hoping we would hear from mcgahn and mueller, but it doesnt look like thats going to happen. So those members have some influence with the democratic leadership, and also some who are very out spoken, including freshman member like alexandria ocasiocortez, who i caught up with as well, and also said this caucus should not be hesitant in moving forward with impeachment. You know, i trust the speaker is taking a measured approach to insure that were moving around forward and being a speaker is hard, holding the Party Together is a difficult task, but i personally think so. I think we have to move forward. Thank you. So youre seeing the pressure that is building on nancy pelosi, the house speaker, who has urged a more methodical approach, a go slow approach. And im told in multiple meetings that occurred last night, this debate played out behind the scenes. Pelosi saying we need to be deliberative, theres a process. Were issuing subpoenas. Theyre saying no, were going to court. In one case, yesterday, theyre winning. They dont want to be too hasty in moving forward with impeachment, but they also dont want to rule it out. Jerry nadler, how judiciary chairman, who would oversee hoe impeachment proceeding is also at the moment on the same page with the speaker. The question is, will she ultimately bend if more democrats say its time to move forward . That is the question, as we see the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee getting seated next to the Ranking Member republican doug collins. Were going to listen to Opening Statements. Can i ask you, is the democratic strategy by leadership, at least pelosi, et cetera, to let the clock run out on this, ask for more and more, not get any of it from the white house, and then essentially push forward with impeachment akin to nixon and article iii of the impeachment proceedings against nixon and say look, theyre not turning over papers and documents. Lets listen in. We welcome everyone to todays hearing on oversight of the report by special Counsel Robert Mueller iii. Former white House Counsel Donald Mcgahn ii. I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. More than a year ago, white House Counsel don mcgahn sat for the first of several interviews with special Counsel Robert Mueller. Over the course of those interviews, he described how the president directed him to have the special counsel fired. He described how the president ordered him to lie about it. He described several other obstructive incidents outlined in the special counsels report. The president , in contrast, refused to be interviewed by the special counsel or even to answer written questions about his attempts to obstruct the investigation. Instead, to address the allegations spelled out by mr. Mcgahn and outlined in the report, President Trump relied on his preferred mode of communication. He took to twitter do call mr. Mcgahn a liar. His lawyers went on Cable Television to do the same, to call mr. Mcgahn a liar. There are reports of the president and his lieutenant exerted other kinds of pressure on mr. Mcgahn. In short, the president took it upon himself to intimidate a witness who has a legal obligation to be here today. This conduct is not remotely acceptable. The white house asserts that mr. Mcgahn does not have to appear today because hes entitled to, quote, absolute immunity, unquote, from our subpoenas. We know this argument is wrong, of course. Because the executive branch has tried this approach before. In 2007, president george bush attempted to invoke a similarly broad and unjustified assertion of executive privilege and asked his former counsel, Harriet Miers, who ignore a subpoena issued by this committee. Ms. Miers also did not appear at her scheduled hearing. Judge john bates, who was appointed by president bush, slapped down that argument fairly quickly. Quote, the executive cannot identify a single judicial opinion that recognizes absolute immunity for senior president ial advisers in this or any other context. That simple yet critical fact bears repeating. He asserted absolute immunity claim here is entirely unsupported by the case law. Close quote, from the judicial decision. In other words, when this Committee Issues a subpoena, even to a senior president ial adviser, the witness must show up. Our subpoenas are not optional. Mr. Mcgahn has a legal obligation to be here for this scheduled appearance. If he does not immediately correct his mistake, this committee will have no choice but to enforce the subpoena against him. Mr. Mcgahn did not appear today because the president prevented it. Just as the president has said that he would, quote, fight all subpoenas, close quote, issued by congress as part of his broader efforts to cover up his misconduct. This stonewalling makes it all the more important to highlight some of the incidents that mr. Mcgahn is said to have witnessed. Let me recount some of them. We know that the president directed mr. Mcgahn to prevent then attorney general sessions from recusing himself from overseeing the investigation into Russian Election interference. On march 3rd, 2017, shortly after attorney general Jeff Sessions did recuse himself from the russia investigation, the president summoned mr. Mcgahn to the oval office. According to the Mueller Report, quote, the president opened the conversation by saying, i dont have a lawyer. Unquote. The president told mr. Mcgahn he said he wished ray kohn was his attorney. Ray kohn is known principally as the chief architect of the mccarthy hearings that destroyed so many lives in 1954, an actual political witch hunt, not the imaginary kind the president decries. Mr. Kohn served as President Trumps lawyer for a long time, defending the president against federal discrimination suits before he, that is mr. Kohn, was ultimately disbarred for unethical practices in 1986. Mr. Mcgahn refused to follow blindly into unethical behavior. Mr. Mcgahn told the president that the department of justice ethics officials had weighed in and that mr. Sessions would not unrecuse himself, and he advised the president not to have any contact with mr. Sessions on the matter. Days later, the president did exactly the opposite. He summoned mr. Mcgahn and mr. Sessions to maralago, where the president again, quote, expressed his anger, unquote. He said he wanted mr. Sessions to act as his fixer. He said he wanted mr. Sessions to undo his recusal and limit the scope of the investigation. But mr. Sessions, too, refused the president s orders. On june 17th, 2017, the president took his displeasure a step further. He called mr. Mcgahn at home and directed him to order Rod Rosenstein to fire robert mueller. Mueller has to go, the president barked. Call me back when you do it. Once again, mr. Mcgahn refused. This time, mr. Mcgahn felt the president s behavior was so inappropriate that he said he would rather resign than trigger a constitutional crisis. In early 2018, after press reports described the president s attempt to force mr. Mcgahn to remove the special counsel on his behalf, the president repeated his pattern. He summoned mr. Mcgahn to his office and got angry. Quote, this story doesnt look good. You need to correct this. Youre the white House Counsel. Close quote. President trump told mr. Mcgahn. What about these notes . Why do you take notes . The president said to mr. Mcgahn. Inquiring why mr. Mcgahn had documented their conversation. The president then told mr. Mcgahn to tell the American People something that was not true. He asked him to deny those reports publicly. Mr. Mcgahn again refused the president s order. He refused the president s order to lie to the American People on the president s behalf. Six months later, the president announced that mr. Mcgahn would be leaving the white house. The special counsel found mr. Mcgahn to be, quote, a credible witness with no motive to lie or exaggerate given the position he held in the white house, close quote. Thats from the Mueller Report. The special counsel also found the following quote, substantial evidence indicates that by june 17th, 2017, the president knew his conduct was under investigation by a federal prosecutor who could present any evidence of federal crimes to a grand jury. Substantial evidence indicates that the president s attempts to remove the special counsel were linked to the special counsels oversight of investigations that involved the president s conduct. And most immediately, to reports that the president was being investigated for potential obstruction of justice. Substantial evidence indicates that these were all quotes from the report, substantial evidence indicates that in repeatedly urging mcgahn to dispute that he was ordered to have the special counsel terminated, the president acted for the purpose of influencing mcgahns account in order to deflect or prevent further scrutiny of the president s conduct towards the investigation. Substantial evidence indicates that the president s efforts to have sessions limit the scope of the special counsels investigation to future election interference was intended to prevent further investigative scrutiny of the president and his campaigns conduct. Close quote. Those are all quotes from the special counsels report. I believe that each of these incidents documented in detail in the Mueller Report constitutes a crime. But for the department of justices policy of refusing to indict any sitting president , i believe the president would have been indicted and charged with these crimes. I am not alone in this belief. Over 900 former federal prosecutors from across the political spectrum whose job was to determine when the elements of the crime have been satisfied have stated, have agreed that the president committed crimes that would have been charged if he were not the sitting president. And i believe that the president s conduct since the report was released with respect to mr. Mcgahns testimony and other information we have sought has carried this pattern of obstruction and coverup well beyond the four corners of the Mueller Report. The president has declared out loud his intention to cover up this misconduct. He told mr. Mcgahn to commit crimes on his behalf. He told mr. Mcgahn to lie about it. After the report came out, the president claimed that mr. Mcgahn lied to the special counsel about what happened. Then he directed mr. Mcgahn not to come here today so that the public would not hear his testimony and so that we could not question him. President trump may think he can hide behind his lawyers, as he launches a series of baseless legal arguments designed to obstruct our work. He cannot think these legal arguments will prevail in court, but he can think he can slow us down and run out the clock on the American People. Let me be clear. This committee will hear mr. Mcgahns testimony even if we have to go to court to secure it. We will not allow the president to prevent the American People from hearing from this witness. We will not allow the president to block congressional subpoenas. Putting himself and his allies above the law. We will not allow the president to stop this investigation, and nothing in these unjustified and unjustifiable legal attacks will stop us from pressing forward with our work on behalf of the American People. We will hold this president accountable one way or the other. It is now my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the judiciary committee, the gentleman from georgia, mr. Collins, for his opening statement. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for all that have gathered here. Again, here we go again. The theater is open. And the summations are coming in. In fact, right now, were running over the norms of congressional oversight, dabbing at the edges of running roughshod on the constitution, asking for things we dont, but i am glad about one thing. I am glad the chairman read into the report today the Mueller Report. Im glad he quoted as he said this is a quote directly from the Mueller Report. I wish my chairman would read the rest of it that he has been offered to read, which he has chose not to read. But he did leave out one thing. He left out something in the Mueller Report from just now. He read mcgahns testimony beautifully, but he left out what he doesnt want to have to come back to and the frustrating thing that has brought us here again and again and again. That is the conclusions. There was no collusion. There was no obstruction charges. Theres nothing here. After two years of doing this, we can read it in, you can talk about how you dont like it, you can talk about what you would like to ask, but at the end of the day, were reading the quotes that make the headlines. But were also not going to read in the bottom line of what was actually concluded. The democrats are here trying again. The Mueller Report concluded there was no collusion, no obstruction, because the report failed to provide damning information against the president. The majority claims we need to dig deeper. Deeper than the two years of investigation conducted by what is considered a prosecutorial dream team because it ended without charges against the president and his family. They closed up shop without giving democrats anything to deliver to their base. Now the democrats are trying desperately to make something out of nothing, which is why the chairman has again haphazardly subpoenaed todays witnesses. That move has insured the witness will not testify. You know, this is becoming a pattern. The chairman knew this, i believe, when he sent the subpoena last month, but instead of inviting the witness to testify voluntarily and working with mcgahns counsel to find a mutually agreeable time and scope for testimony, the chairman rushed to maximize headlines by issuing a subpoena. That was the third in four months. More subpoenas than the prior chairman issued in six years. The chairman has several ways out here. He took none of them. The chairman could have invited the witness to testify volarily. That was the practice in the 1990s when the white House Counsel testified before congress, but the chairman did not do that. Instead, he launched at a subpoena at the witness out any followup with the witness lawyer. He could have testified behind closed doors, but you wouldnt have been here and the show would not have been as exciting. A closeddoor conversation would not have generated those headlines and everything that were looking at today, even gaveling in todays hearing without a witness is theatrical. The cameras love a spectacle, and i m glad to see that we dont have chicken on the dais. The chairman orchestrated todays confrontation when he could have avoided it because hes more interested in the fight than the fact finding. Taic the Mueller Report. More than 99 of the Justice Department has offered to the chairman for an entire month, and hes refused to look at it. The attorney general who volunteered to testify before the committee, the chairman changed the rules for the first time in the 200year history, thus blocking barr from testifying. I cannot emphasis this enough. The track record demonstrates he does not actually want information. He wants the fight but not the truth. The closer he actually comes to obtaining the information, the further we run from it. The democrats claim the need for the witness to investigate the obstruction of justice. Robert mueller spent two years running it and then closing it. Were a prosecutorial body, but lets talk about the Mueller Report for a second. Its really interesting to me that the Mueller Report was actually within 24 hours of coming out, the chairman and the majority subpoenaed for all of the documents. In fact, we have an illegal subpoena that actually the attorney general to provide documents he cannot legally provide. Thats been covered in this committee for the last two weeks exhaustively, and even the panel that was with us last week agreed that the subpoena asked the attorney general to do something illegal. By exposing 6e information. That was his own witnesses who said that last week. Whats interesting to me is that we have subpoenaed the documents, we have subpoenaed that we want underlying documents, stuff we cant get, but the one thing we seem to avoid is mr. Mueller himself, the one who wrote it. We have asked since april about mr. Mueller coming. But every time we seem to get close to mueller, mueller gets pushed on a little bit. I havent seen a subpoena here. Well get back to subpoenas in a moment, but think about that. You want the work of the author but you dont want to talk to the author. Keep that pinned for just a moment. When we look at this, 99 of the information is at the democrats fingertips and its Mueller Report, the attorney general offered to speak to speaker pelosi, and they have offered and they have refused. The majority wants to fight, they want the drama. After the Administration Made volumes of information available, the congress harangues the administration for not complying with the subpoenas. They abruptly cut off negotiations and rejecting olive branches by the administration. This is what i want to come back to something my chairman said a moment ago. His quote was in his Opening Statements that our subpoenas are not optional. We found out a lot about subpoenas over the last month or so in this committee. I found out subpoenas maybe now are not optional. Lets add to the list. Subpoenas are also a discussion starter. A subpoena is to give us better standing in court, not my quotes, the chairmans quotes. What is it . Is it a legal document we have talked about all along and the forceful document all attorneys actually use or a discussion starter . Is it to help our standing in court or is it we dont want it ignored . At this time, it is amazing to me that the accommodation process, and we talk about the committee and the chairman talked about our oversight. I agree with the chairman on this point, this committee and all committees have oversight, but its also the sacred responsibility of the chairman and the majority to use it properly and to not headlong rush into subpoenas when you dont get what you want. When we dont get what we want, we subpoena. The first was the acting attorney general. We subpoenaed andthen backed off. Everything has become a race to get a headline. The accommodation process, not happening. The accommodation process, never here. So dont be fooled. You may have come, you may have an opinion that says everything is wrong with the Mueller Report and the president is guilty, but dont undercut congressional oversight because you cant wait. Thats the problem we have right now. And so the question is, are we tearing at the fabric of congressional oversight . It was really interesting to hear some of that last week. When you have a committee that has issued subpoenas that asked the attorney general to do something illegal. When you have subpoenas when no accommodation process has been in place. You have contempt issues with no process and no time going through. I just submit to you this, whatever uropinion on the Mueller Report, great. Glad you have it, but you didnt get it here today and youre not getting it from this committee because this committee undoubtedly doesnt like the author and want to talk to the author of the report. They just want to talk about the report and make innuendo and attack the president. In the middle of the day, when this committee who has charge of immigration, who has charge of intellectual property, woo wehave touched none of with a crisis at the border, we have an admission that the economy is good, jobs are happening, unemployment is at its lowest rate. I guess at the end of the day, we cant find something that the Mueller Report lets them hang their iword, impeachment on, which they cant even agree on because the president is continuing to do his job, and were here again with the circus in full force. With that, i yield back. Mr. Chairman . Thank you, mr. Collins. Who seeks recognition . Strike the last word. The gentleman from tennessee. Move to adjourn. Motion is made to adjourn. Mr. Chairman. Motion to adjourn is not debatable. All in favor. Aye. Opposed. No. Recorded vote. A request for a recorded vote . The clerk will call the roll on the motion to adjourn. Do we have the clerk . Mr. Nadler. Aye. Mr. Nadler votes aye. Ms. Lofgren votes aye, ms. Jackson lee. Ms. Jackson lee votes aye. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen votes aye. Mr. Johnson of georgia . Mr. Johnson of georgia votes aye. Mr. Deutsche. Ms. Bass. Ms. Bass votes aye. Mr. Richmond. Mr. Richmond votes aye. Mr. Jeffries. Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Cicilline votes aye. Mr. Swalwell. Mr. Lieu. Mr. Lieu votes aye. Mr. Raskin. Mr. Raskin votes aye. Mr. Jiappall. Ms. Jiappall votes aye. Ms. Demings votes aye. Mr. Correia. Mr. Correia votes aye. Ms. Scanlon. Ms. Scanlon votes aye. Ms. Garcia. Ms. Garcia votes aye. Mr. Nugus. Mr. Mugus votes aye. Ms. Mcgath votes aye. Mr. Stanton. Mr. Stanton votes aye. Ms. Dean. Ms. Dean votes aye. Ms. Mucarselpowell votes ay erk. Ms. Escobar. Ms. Escobar votes aye. Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins votes no. Mr. Sensenbrenner. Mr. Chabot. No, and this is disgraceful. Mr. Chabot votes no. Mr. Gohmert. Mr. Gohmert votes no. Mr. Jordan. Mr. Jordan votes no. Mr. Buck. Mr. Buck votes no. Mr. Ratcliffe, mr. Ratcliffe votes no. Ms. Robey. Mr. Gates. Mr. Gates votes no. Mr. Johnson of louisiana. Mr. Johnson of louisiana votes no. Mr. Bigs. Mr. Mcclintock. Mr. Mcclintock votes no. Ms. Les co. Ms. Reshentholler votes no. Mr. Klein. Mr. Klein votes no. Mr. Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong votes no. Mr. Stuby. Mr. Stuby votes no. Anyone who wishes to vote who hasnt voted . Clerk will report. Mr. Chairman, there are 21 ayes and 13 noes. The motion to adjourn is adopted and the hearing is adjourned. So there you have the hearing from the House Judiciary Committee. Right now, jerry nadler, the chairman there, opened the proceedings with an empty chair for don mcgahn. The white House Counsel who has skipped the hearing at the instructions of President Trump. We heard from jerry nadler there, his concerns, he says according to the Mueller Report, the president committed offenses for which he would have been charged if he had not if he was not the sitting president. We also heard from the Ranking Member, republican doug collins, and he called the entire hearing theater. He said that the democrats in the hearing had even refused to go read the unredacted portions of the report, which are at the Justice Department at the invitation of the attorney general. They have been invited to come read that, and he said they had even refused to come see what theyre now fighting over. We now obviously have the hearing has now been adjourned. We now wait to see what the democrats will do, what will chairman nadler do . Will he hold don mcgahn in contempt of congress simply because he has refused to show up to even answer questions at this hearing . Now, we have a panel joining us to discuss what we just saw. With us is david gergen and ilya shapiro. Ilya worked with mcgahn at an International Law firm more than a decade ago and has remained on friendly terms. Thanks for joining us. Well be right back to discuss a little more about what we saw. Okay, well stick with the pictures there from the hearing. David, first to you. Tell us a little bit about what you think happens next as a result of what we just saw. Well, i think the chairman very much wanted to have a chance to delay the case out of obstruction by the president and lacking don mcgahn, he just gave us his own rendition of what the problems are and why he thinks the president , if he were not president right now, would be charged with criminality. I think what happens next is he gives it a couple days, let everything sink in, and then hes going to issue a contempt citation, and i would assume that very quickly he will take this to the courts. It clearly, on two fronts now, were going to have courts getting engaged here and giving us judgments. The trump team lost a round yesterday on one of those fronts, when a federal judge said you have to produce your financial records. But they think they can do better in the upper courts. And i think that all of this may be were going to have two or three sets of court cases going on for a while. Well, lets see, ilya, one of the things i think jerry nadler brought up in the hearing just a minutes ago was the idea that in previous cases, courts have ruled, including during the bush administration, courts have ruled that you cant just ignore a subpoena. You can show up and say that youre claiming executive privilege on behalf of the president. The president has claimed it. Why didnt, do you believe, don mcgahn do that today . Theres not much precedent. Setting aside the example of watergate when it was an impeachment inquiry, criminal investigation, different sort of situation. Theres been one District Court ruling which chairman nadler alluded to about Harriet Miers tf testimony from the District Court in d. C. That was quickly stayed by the d. C. Circuit, and there was a settlement. Thats why theres not much precedent and the Supreme Court has never ruled because these sorts of things tend to be worked out. There are cooperation agreements or a negotiation of some sort. But i dont think that one District Court decision is really going to be deciding, particularly given this has been the accepted practice of administrations, all administrations of both parties going back decades. Im sure well go to court. But its not at all clear how that court will rule. There is a very strong argument that to allow the candid advice by senior advisers, the president can invoke this kind of testimonial immunity. Thank you, ilya, thank you, david. We have jim and poppy rejoining us from new york. Jim and poppy. Thank you, evan. Slight technical difficulties there, which we worked out. Good to have you three smart people there to help us break down. We appreciate you having our back. What happened . Ilya shapiro, thanks for coming on. I wanted to ask you, youre saying that the Court Precedent here that nadler is sighting is not relevant. Why . Not that its not relevant. Its not decisive. Theres one District Court ruling from about a decade ago that was quickly stayed by the d. C. Circuit, the federal appellate court. And thats it. Then there was a settlement. And president s from both parties have asserted this kind of privilege, this kind of testimonial immunity, so were really, you know, this is open field that the lawyers are going to be working on. But just to be clear, president s have claimed executive privilege before. This is a blanket claim across multiple investigations, documents, witnesses, et cetera. David gergen, you worked with handful of president s through the years. Have you seen anything this broad, and is that relevant . Certainly not since nixon have we seen as broad a scale and as formidable a stonewall as were seeing here. I think some distinctions are in order. Listen, the courts have spoken clearly about the president s right to invoke executive privilege, whether its for his general counsel or for other people in the white house. Then the question becomes, when that person, when the president does not invoke executive privilege and waives it in effect, for mcgahn to go and talk to the mueller people, which he did, does that invocation of executive privilege then waive the mcgahn or the president , the executive privilege. Does it waive executive privilege when mcgahn is asked to testify in the congressional, to the Congressional Branch of government. The courts have simply not addressed it as best i can tell. Instead, what we have are a series of internal documents that the office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department saying that the president , giving this president some ammunition to say if your aide testifies in front of one branch of government, it does not waive executive privilege when he goes in front of the congress. That has not been tested. Its what the president is asserting here is broad immunity for everybody. That goes way beyond anything the courts have looked at, and i think its an expression or an assertion of a hugely expanded executive authority. So david, let me ask you just on that. To jims really important point, which is this is broad. This is just across the board. Were just not going to cooperate with anything. Documents, testimony, none of it. Heres the thing. You worked in the nixon white house. And the final article of impeachment, article ii, against president nixon. The president , quote, has failed without lawful cause to execute, to produce papers and things directly and dually authorized by subpoenas issued by the committee on the judiciary. Sound familiar . That was 1974. In refusing to produce these papers, richard m. Nixon substituting his judgment as to what materials were necessary in proposed the powers of the presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the house of representatives. Whats different if anything today on that front . Well, i think that was the third article of impeachment. Nixon stonewalled and refused to cooperate, and the house of representatives was moving to vote. That was an Impeachable Offense. And they had the votes to drive nixon out. But whats different, i think, though, poppy is that in nixons case, there was also an underlying crime. You know, if you go to article i and article ii, there was an underlying crime, and the trump people are claiming, basically, youre not obstructing if theres no underlying crime. Is that true . Is that true, justin amash, that was part of his case. The republican congressman in his analysis post the Mueller Report, one of the points he made is actually we should defer to the lawyer here, do you need an underlying crime . Because justin amash, republican congressman, he made the point that courts have found in fact that obstruction by itself is enough because the presumption is law enforcement, if youre obstructing, they cant establish there was an underlying crime because youre obstructing the investigation. What does the law say . Youre asking me now . Yeah. Because youre a lawyer. Sure. I must say, sorry to disappoint, but i think i agreed with most or all of what david set out for you there because each of these responses to each of these subpoenas is very different. A subpoena cannon that we were expecting since the november elections, and for example, the ruling by the judge in the trump Accounting Firm disclosures yesterday, i think that was very well reasoned, but thats a very different issue. Thats his own separate nonpresident ial business dealings. Here were dealing with the testimony of a former aide. The attorney generals testimony he objected to being questioned by counsel rather than members. Theres a push back, but each one is a separate issue. Can obstruction of justice be its own crime . Absolutely. Martha stewart, lots of people get convicted of lying to the fbi without a conviction, beyond that, for example. For Insider Trading or whatever else. Thats a judgment to be made. We should also remember that you can impeach someone for something thats not a crime and something could be a technical crime and not be an Impeachable Offense which is ultimately a political judgment. Evan perez, to you. Im just reading here some of the comments that congresswoman alexandria ocasiocortez made to manu raju. Quote, i think impeaching and choosing not to impeach when theres an abundance of evidence could also be construed as politically motivated. Key cant be scared of elections. We need to uphold the rule of law. It seems to us like the last 24 hours has changed things a great deal within the democratic party. But its not just her on the far left. That its representative cicilline, representative jamie raskin of maryland, saying to their leadership, enough is enough. Another empty chair. When are we going to push forward on impeachment . Are you feeling that, evan . Yeah, i think you are seeing the pressure build on the leadership in the democratic side. Look, i have to tell you, i think the president is essentially daring them to do that. I think the president looks at this process and believes that he can run out the clock as david laid out. Look, this is going to take a long time. But he also laid out some kinks in this particular case that are different from other cases, right . The fact that this Mueller Report is now out, and so the question is, a judge will have to say whether some of the stuff he has already testified to, to the special counsel, the fact that is now public, does that mean that that is still privileged . That that privilege has been waived. Thats a big question for the judge. The question is how quickly do we get there. Is that something thats going to take a couple years . If you heard jerry nadler and doug collins talk about this, they pointed out that in the bush administration, there was a fight like this. It began in 2007. It didnt get settled until 2009, at which time nobody cared anymore. Thats the gamble the president is making right now. He wants to run out the clock, and hes daring the democrats to begin what is going to be a very political process, because he thinks it will help his election prospects. 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Lets go to abby phillip at the white house. So this is really interesting because this is his financial records from before he was president. Obviously, the white house didnt want this to happen, and now theyre fighting back with an appeal. They are. Theyre fighting back on what could be a particularly important case because in this case, the white house and the president s lawyers lost this battle. A federal judge, d. C. District court judge, said that congress does have an oversight interest. They have a right to demand these documents and this Accounting Firm does in fact have to turn them over. This appeal could halt that order, which, you know, at the moment, they have six days. This Accounting Firm has six days to give over the documents. With this appeal, they could get a stay that allows them to stop the documents from being turned over, but it really sets off this legal battle about what is Congress Oversight ability. What is the ability of the white house and the president to stop these kinds of oversight activities. And this judge in his ruling made it very clear that impeachment is not the only mechanism for congress to go forward with some of these inquiries. I think that will be particularly important and have reverberations on a lot ofthies these other cases Going Forward as the white house tries to push back on, you know, more than two dozen cases here in which congress is seeking documents, seeking testimony, seeking information from companies, from individuals associated with the white house, as they pursue all of these oversight inquiries. The president and his lawyers are making it clear, though, theyre going to fight this. Theyre not going to take the rulings sitting down and hoping down the line they can get some Court Decisions that are favorable to them, but right now, they have lost this one, and theyre looking for a round two, an appeals Court Decision that might be in their favor. Particularly to stop these documents in the next week from being released to the democratic oversight committee. Yeah. Six days and counting now, right, abby . Have to move fast on this one. We appreciate the reporting. Well be right back. Mom, whats for dinner . Just water. Lots and lots of water. You wouldnt feed your kids just water, so why starve your plants . Feed their hunger and get twice the results. New miraclegro performance organics. Last year, the department of Veterans Affairs partnered with tmobile for business. With va video connect, powered by tmobile, vets can speak to their doctors from virtually anywhere, and get the care they deserve, without it counting against their data, so they can return to their most important post. Soulmate, best friend, or just dad. The va provides the care, tmobile provides the coverage. Car vending machines and buying a car 100 online. Vented now weve created a brand new way for you to sell your car. Whether its a year old or a few years old, we want to buy your car. So go to carvana and enter your license plate, answer a few questions, and our technowizardry calculates your cars value and gives you a real offer in seconds. When youre ready, well come to you, pay you on the spot, and pick up your car. Thats it. So ditch the old way of selling your car, and say hello to the new way at carvana. Severe weather right now. Powerful storms moving from dallas to kansas city. Youre looking at live pictures out of el reno, oklahoma. This is just outside of Oklahoma City, where you can see major flooding has forced a number of people out of their homes. Look what they have to do to stay safe. Moments ago, rescuers deployed a boat to homes surrounded by water. Ed lavendera was there as they were being rescued. Tell us what youre hearing from these families. Hey, jim. This is the Oklahoma City swiftwater rescue team. They have been working with the el reno swiftwater rescue this morning. The floodwaters here, the boat is up. They have rescued about ten people here just off of this street that were on, called elm street. And were in el reno, here, and this is where the flood waters, sixmile creek is in the distance, and the floodwaters have come up slowly overnight. We talked to some of the families pulled out of here. Ten people in all in the last hour and a half or so. They say they had gone to bed last night and when they woke up this morning, their homes were essentially sitting on aisland surrounded by water. Rescue teams were brought in and all pulled out. Mostly adults, but four childrening having to go through all of that. A rather traumatic experience for the young kids, seeing all of this unfold as the flood waters creeping into their homes. These people want to get out as quickly as possible. In all, this has been an operation going on all night. Oklahoma city team tells us they have rescued about a dozen different operations. The el reno folks say they have done about 40 swiftwater rescues in the overnight hours. It has been an incredibly busy morning and overnight hours here in el reno, which is about 20 miles west of Oklahoma City. Jim and poppy. Ed, look at these pictures, and when we started, when we came to you, there was a sweet little maybe 4 or 5yearold girl in the rescue boat. It has to be terrifying for those children. What about major roads, major highways being affected by this . As you said, youre just about 20 miles outside of Oklahoma City. Right, so theres just south of where we are is interstate 40. That connects Oklahoma City all the way into the texas panhandle. And the portion of that interstate has been under water for much of this morning. Traffic impassable. Imagine the interstate completely shut down there, and one of the local firefighters told me hes been working on the El Reno Fire Department for 33 years and hes only seen that interstate flood three times in his career. Okay. Ed lavendera, good to have you there. How many lives affected by that. Imagine if thats out your front door. Other news we have been following, a brief but intense hearing on the floor of the House Judiciary Committee. Its over already without its star witness. Again, so what happens next . At this hour with kate bolduan starts right after the break. New tattoo studio brow pomade from maybelline new york. For up to 24hour sculpted brows. New, from the tattoo studio brow family. Only from maybelline new york. Eh, not enough fiber. Chocolate would be good. Snacking should be sweet and simple. The delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. Glucerna. Everyday progress another wireless ad. Great. So many of them are full of this complicated, tricky language about their network and offers and blah blah blah. Look. Sprints going to do things differently. And let you decide for yourself. 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Nothing. Nothing. He broke his oath of office. Hes defying you. Hes laughing at you. And hes getting away with it. This is our democracy. But congress is part of the system and the system is broken. We have to fix it. Need to impeach is responsible for the content of this advertising. With venus, youre in charge of your skin. So, write your own rules. Because no one gets an opinion on why you shave or how you show your skin. Youwhen you barely the clip a passing car. Minor accident no big deal, right . Wrong. Your Insurance Company is gonna raise your rate after the other car got a scratch so small you coulda fixed it with a pen. Maybe you should take that pen and use it to sign up with a different Insurance Company. For drivers with accident forgiveness, Liberty Mutual wont raise their rates because of their first accident. Liberty mutual insurance. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Hello, everyone. Im kate bolduan. Thank you so much for joining me. Another subpoena ignored. Another empty chair testifies, and now House Democrats are debating the question to impeach or not to impeach, and for the first time, signs that some Top Democrats have reached a Tipping Point here. Just last hour, former white House Counsel don mcgahn refused to appear before the House Judiciary Committee following a directive from the white house and defying a subpoena from the committee chairman, jerry nadler. Nadler still held the hearing, facing an empty chair to make his point, and said this. In other words, when this Committee Issues a subpoena, even to a senior president ial adviser, the witness must show up. Our subpoenas are not
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