Transcripts For CNNW CNN Newsroom With Carol Costello 20141217

Exchange for releasing you . Yeah, i think they want something thats completely unrealistic. Since im not really a prisoner, im a hostage, they took me with the idea of trading me. Reporter the landmark deal involves the release of three cubans convicted in the u. S. Of spying. Part of the socalled cuban five. For more than five decades, the u. S. Has observed a trade embargo on cuba, imposed during cuban revolution and Fidel Castros takeover of the island. In 2011, president obama relaxed some travel restrictions and last year he raised eyebrows in the cuban exile community, telling a fundraiser in miami the embargo doesnt make sense saying we have to be creative and we have to be thoughtful and we have to continue to update our policies. And, carol, the initiatives the president will announce today, im told, including a major relaxing of travel restrictions for americans, were talking about a general license to travel to cuba for practically anything but tourism. A resum slption of banking, an increase in remittances cuban americans are sending home to their families, commercial and export goods to cuba. On the diplomatic front, officials tell me president obama will move to restore formal diplomatic ties with cuba, see about taking cuba off the state sponsor of terrorism list. Why now . Officials say there have been some modest reforms on the island, they want to continue to encourage that. Officials stress this is not a reward for the castro regime but a recognition the embargo is not working and this if the u. S. Wants to change in cuba it needs to engage more with the cuban government and people. Officials say they will not let up on human rights. To that end as part of this deal, cuba has agreed to release 53 Political Prisoners from a list provided by by the u. S. And allow more access to the internet and the International Red cross and u. N. Who are on the ground, more engagement with them and the political opposition. Carol . This is just incredible because when you think about it, that u. S. Embargo has been in place for, what, more than 50 years. So this is a sea change. I want to head to cuba now and check in with Patrick Oppman, the only u. S. Reporter in cuba. Raul castro is also going to make a statement at 12 00 eastern time. What do you think that will be like . I think the headline will be the three cuban intelligence agents are returning and will probably be the largest governmentsponsored celebration weve seen since elian gonzalezs return. These men have been in enemy territory, as its referred to in cuba, to carry out a Dangerous Mission and were captured. Of course u. S. Prosecutors call those men spys and said they should rot in prison but whats next for alan gross and his attorney scott bill gert togilb hes looking forward to his first drink in five years, smoking a cigar, obviously something he spent a lot of time in cuban prisons doing, being outside, he was only outside one hour a day at best during his five years of imprisonment here and spending time with his family. Hes not interested in doing interviews, at least right away. He wants to go to his mothers grave, his mother evelyn gross passed away from cancer while alan was here in prison and he was apparently, as anybody would be, completely distraught that he was not able to say goodbye to her in person. So for him its making up for lost time. But a u. S. Official tells me this is 2 first domino to fall in a series of changes that will really reframe the entire u. S. cuba relationship and as this u. S. Diplomat told me, that it will really help u. S. Policy catch up with the reality because already the u. S. Does sell food to cuba, its one of cubas Major Trading partners despite the embargo. You have tens of thousands of american visitors coming through a somewhat confusing process but coming here legally. You have even more americans coming through third countries illegally but almost never punish sod theyll make travel restrictions much less confusing and expensive and cumbersome. And finally, theyre hoping that by loosening up some of the restrictions that theyll bring the cuban people together and that well see more and more cubans in south florida and other parts taken a active role in supporting the relatives here and get around some of the frankly draconian government restrictions on starting businesses and capitalism on the island. Patrick oppman reporting live from cuba, thanks so much. I want to head to miami now and check in with ana navarro, our political commentator. Ana, tell us a little bit more about these three cuban spies that will be swapped for mr. Gross. They were theyre part of a larger spy ring. It was initially a five spy ring who were convicted here in u. S. Courts. Two of them have already been released. These three were the ones accused of the more serious crimes. They were involved of the shootdown of the brothers to the rescue, which was a rescue mission of cuban american pilots that would fly, leave from miami and fly over the straits of florida trying to identify, locate people fleeing cuba on rafts and help rescue them. They were shot down by the cuban government over International Waters with the help of these five. Thats what they were convicted of. And these are the guys, these are the bad guys that are being swapped for alan gross. I dont hear much happiness in your voice, you seem angry about this swap. I dont like it. I dont like i dont like this idea that the United States engages with regimes like cuba in prisoner swaps and this cuba can unfairly, unjustifiably imprison an american citizen and then demand the release of spies that have tried to harm our country and have caused harm to our citizens. I think its not a good precedent for the United States. I also dont like what feels like a very unilateral change of policy. Even though ill tell you something, carol, theres only so much that the president can do through executive order. Im sure theres much more he can do, but the u. S. Embargo is codified 2in law. That means it needs to be decodified in law. Its not something he can do away with so easily with the stroke of a pen. Theres regulations that hes going to be able to change but the core of the embargo, you cannot change it because its codified in law. I think hes going to face a challenge from legislators, from congress on this when Congress Comes back because there are cuban americans in the appropriations committee. There are cuban americans on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. There are cuban americans in leadership roles in the House Foreign Affairs committee and i dont think that theyre going to roll over and play dead with the president taking these unilateral actions without weighing in with congress. I know that youve reached out to lawmakers and talked with them about the president s pending announcement. What did they tell you . Well, first of all, they didnt know. I was amazed that frankly i knew from cnn before even senator bob menendez, a democrat and the current chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee had been informed. None of the cuban american members of congress that represent an enormous amount of the Cuban American Community in the United States had any previous knowledge about this or were consulted about it. Which also tells you that the families of the brothers to the rescue pilots that were shot down, the victims of these spies that had been convicted and were in u. S. Custody, you know, also didnt know. So its come as a surprise to everybody and its a very unilateral action by the Obama Administration. Ana, stand by. I want to bring in cnn Global Affairs analyst bobby ghosh, hes on the phone right now. Hi, bobby. Hi. Hi, bobby. Not only does this deal involve a prisoner swap but it also reinstates diplomatic relations with cuba, at least some. It takes cuba off the list of terrorist states. It eases travel restrictions, it eases banking regulations and it also eases trade in some ways. It sounds like the United States is well on its way to normalization on its relations with cuba, right . It certainly does. The prisoner swap is not entirely surprising if you followed the course of this administration this administration only a couple months ago did a major prisoner swap with the taliban where we released several freedom Guantanamo Bay in exchange for an american citizen. So doing a prisoner swap with cuba is potentially less controversial than that. But the democratic relations, the restoring of diplomatic relations, thats a whole different order of change and thats going to be much more controversial. The administration 1 clearly trying to do this by executive fiat. Im less certain about whether it can actually pull that off. Its something the president has hinted at before. It has been flagged in many different places, the New York Times only i think a month or two ago did a major editorial on the subject so if youve been reading the tvs about cuba, you knew Something Like this was coming but this is still quite an ambitious plan to change something that has been unchanged for five decades now. So youre saying there might be constitutional issues . Oh, there are definitely constitutional issues, as ms. Navarro said. Its one thing for the administration to try and work some things out through executive decision but this is something written in american law and at some points sooner or later this thing thereof go before congress. I dont think its a given that it can be passed through congress. This congress is a lot different from, lets say 20, years ago, 25 years ago, American Attitudes towards cuba are quite different than they used to be so there may be a 5050 chance this will get through. But it still has to go through that process and as weve sween so many other important things, neigh goes through congress these days is highly controversial, gets slowed down by all kinds of legislative minutiae and becomes polarized and this was polarized from the getgo. Its been an issue for the past 50 something years. Let me ask you this question. I would suppose one of the president s arguments would be look, the embargo hasnt worked for 50 years because the castros remain in power today. If not fidel, his brother raul. So obviously the embargo hasnt worked. Democracy has not been restored to cuba so maybe we have to go down another road. Yeah, there is something to be said for that. The reasonm t embargo hasnt worked is because its a unilateral embargo. The United States is pretty much the only serious country in the world has has an embargo. Almost every other major country in the world does business with cuba. But that hasnt changed cubas attitudes towards its own people. The fact that britain, canada, europe in general does business with cuba hasnt softened the cuban leaderships record on human rights the way it sort of runs its country and keeps its people in poverty. Will the the United States ending that embargo, will that make a big change . I guess we have to see. But my feeling is that the castro administration, whether its castro the elderly or castro the younger has not done enough to loosen the its grip on its own people. You can begin to trust a dictatorial or oppressive regime when it begins to give its own people a little bit of a break. We havent seen enough of that out of cuba and its going to be hard for the Obama Administration to argue that, well, if we give these people this regime, some leniency, then theyre going to go and be nicer to their own people. Thats a bank shot at best. Bobby ghosh, thanks so much. Cnn Global Affairs analyst. I want to head to Little Havana in the city of miami, florida. Alina machado has been talking to some people there. What are they telling you . I think for the most part people a r happy alan gross is free. Regardless of who you ask and how they feel about the other things, theyre pleased by that. But in talking to cubans here, particularly the older generations, theyre very disappointed. Theyre angry by the fact that the United States is going to be swapping these three prisoners with cuba. Theyre also very upset about the easing of restrictions, economic restrictions. This is something that for this generation, for the people who came here in the 50s and 60s is a big, big deal. Theres a long history of hurt, of families who went through a lot when they left cuba and then came here and never returned to the island, leafing behind their families belongings, everything they knew because of the castro government. So you can imagine for people like that who hears about these changes, its not a good thing for them. They feel the u. S. Government is giving in to castro. Carol . All right, Alina Machado reporting live from Little Havana in miami, thanks so much, alina. I want to head to washington now and bring in justice reporter evan perez. I know youve been digging for information. Tell me what you got. Carol, i spent a lot of time in miami, i was a reporter down there and this was the cuba issues, something i spent a lot of time covering there when i was with the urinal and the Associated Press and ill tell you, as alina mentioned just now, you do have a generational divide on this issue. You have older cuban americans who will be upset about what the president is planning to do. But heres the thing, younger cubans, cubans who came and demographically most cubans now in this country are people who probably came from cuba after 1980 where the big boat lift that happened and increased the population, most cubans in recent years are economic migrants and these people dont have the same feelings about the castro government and about the embargo as some of the older generation do. So thats whats driving this. This is why the Obama Administration feels that they can do this and the consequences politically are really not going to be that bad. I mean, i remember going to press conferences down there in miami for many years where this was something democrats, republicans, would never touch. That has begun to change and soon the first democrat in decades to actually twin cuban vote so this is something that hes actually been trying to move towards for some time and i think youre going to see in the next few days a reaction from republicans, bob menendez, the senator from new jersey, is a cuban american and hes going to probably be very opposed to this. But i think the administration feels that the political moment is right, carol. You know, i tend to agree with you only because, you know, americans are traveling to cuba in droves. Right. They come back with wonderful stories. Ive heard from dozens of my friends, they want to go to cuba. They dont really remember, you know, being to the days of the cold war and the intense fear and hatred americans had toward fidel castro. Of course, people of my generation absolutely do remember but the Younger Generation really doesnt. They dont. And carol, the other thing people ask and this is something my cuban american friends down there in miami that i always talked about is why is it that you can travel freely to china, vietnam, you dont need to go to the Treasury Department to get a license to be able to travel to north korea and yet cuba, 90 miles away from u. S. Soil, you have this restriction and its something thats always been a very difficult thing for everyone to explain, really. And the Clinton Administration had tried to do some of this back in the 1990s, tried to ease some of these travel restrictions and then, of course tcas trow government shot down these brothers to the rescue planes and everything changed again. And so whats going to be key here is how raul castros government behaves in the next year or so, whether they do anything that sets this effort back again. Its really all on them whether or not they can make sure that this relationship doesnt get set back after what president obama is really going on a limb for in this announcement today, carol. Evan perez, thanks so much, i appreciate it. I want to bring our viewers back to havana cuba, Patrick Oppman is standing by. He has new information about the negotiations to release alan gross. Tell us more. These negotiations were so fraught, living here in cuba, we heard little bits of information over the past months and the u. S. And cuba have been talking really since ever since alan gross was arrested here about freeing him. But its only been the last few months that weve seen as were entering the end of the Obama Administration really pick up steam. But theyre so sensitive that nobody would ever admit cuban or u. S. The negotiations were taking place so it relies on back channels and people were just afraid that even if any information leaked out that it would scuttle the whole process. And the u. S. Got certain concession bus they did not get everything they want as youd expect in any negotiation. For instance, the u. S. Did raise the possibility of having u. S. Fugitives, there are dozens of u. S. Fugitives, some with Million Dollar price tags on their heads in cuba and they raised that possibility and they were told no, theyve been giving asylum by fidel castro, they would not be sent back. Of course the u. S. Would like to see freer and open elections here, thats not going to take place any time soon. Theyd like to see a more liberal media out of state controlled hands, thats not going to happen any time soon. But you are seeing gradual changes. For instance cubans can travel anywhere in the world that accepts them, all they need their government 1 pa a passport. Up until a few years ago they needed government permission every time they left the country so in that sense the government made the claim that cuban citizens are more free to travel than u. S. Citizens. Cuba is the only country in the world theyre banned from traveling but it sounds like that that will be changing. Were hearing alan gross is traveling towards the United States. Its only about a 45minute flight from havana to the u. S. So he must be, you would assume, in u. S. Air spice by now. Hes expected to probably briefly address the media, is what his attorneys told me. Enjoy time with family and then decompress. Hes really gone through a wringer here. Up until a few weeks ago it told me they werent sure if he was going to be released and they felt if he wouldnt be released now this crucial period while president obama is in the last months of his presidency that he might very well likely die in prison. This sets the stage as well between the next expected meeting between president raul castro and president obama which takes place in panama. It will be the first time cuba is invited to the summit of the americas so obviously there will be more for them to talk about there as they take this first but yet quite historic step towards closer u. S. cuba relations. Patrick oppman, thanks so much. Im back in a minute. Hello. Im an idaho potato farmer and our big idaho potato truck is still missing. So my buddy here is going to help me find it. Here we go. Woo who, woah, woah, woah. Its out there somewhere spreading the word about americas favorite potatoes heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart associations go red for women campaign. If you see it i hope youll let us know. Always look for the grown in idaho seal. Its about getting to the finish line. In life, its how you get there that matters most. Like when i found out i had a blood clot in my leg. My doctor said that it could travel to my lungs and become an even bigger problem. So he talked to me about xarelto®. 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But the box office may not be the only place sony takes a hit. Two former employees have filed a Class Action Lawsuit against the country after the hackers got access to information like Social Security numbers and medical conditions. The suit reads in part an epic nightmare much better suited to a cinematic thriller than to real life is unfolding in slow motion for sonys current and former employees. Their most Sensitive Data has been leaked to the public and may even be in the hands of criminals. Now, one of the films stars, seth rogan, is telling Stephen Colbert he expected backlash but he felt the film should portray what life is truly like under the kim jongun regime. We did not think they would love the concept of the movie, to be totally honest. But more than anything, i mean, we wanted to make a movie that had kind of one foot in reality . Thats something that we as filmmakers like and think is interesting as audience members as well. Did you think about changing his name at all. Like calling him fill jong un . [ laughter ] we did. And then we thought, like, whose feelings are we trying to spare by doing that . Kim jongun . All right, so lets talk about all of this. With me laurie segall. Brian stelter is senior medica k0 r respondent and will ripley 1 in tokyo right now. I want to start with you, will, because this thing is having repercussions there, too. Tell us. Well, you know, japan and north korea are very close neighbors so while for audiences in america filmmakers in america it might seem like a distance joke, north korea is a very real threat for people in japan, a threat theyve dealt with for decades, north korea has kidnapped japanese citizens in the past and forced them to train spies. They routinely fire projectiles into the sea of japan and now theres new fear that sony and Japanese Companies and the japanese government could be vulnerable to a major cyber attack because the suspicion here is that north korea is somehow behind this. Its just getting worse and worse. Brian, youve heard of a major movie studio thats going to pull the movie, movie chain, i should say. There are four or five big companies. One has decided they wont screen it. They havent said it publicly. Are we going see amc, rezbhal tho regal, will they not air the movie . I think thats possible. Sony still has some hope. But they could choose to put it online if not. So youve been looking into these hackers. Are these hackers responsible . Could they carry out a 9 11 style attack . Do we know . Its hard because we dont exactly know who these hackers are. But one of the things that were wrapping our head around is the idea of cyber terrorism. The idea that these arent just credit card numbers, these are very personal this is so much person information and theyve made good on those threats. Their next threat is physical terror. Will they make good on those . I dont know. But were seeing people who say i dont want to go to the movies on Christmas Day which is a big day to go to the movies because i just dont feel comfortable, i dont feel safe. You have former employees suing so youre already seeing the damage of this cyber terror. And im sitting here feeling sad about that. That anyone would sit at home and think to themselves im not going to go to the movies because im worried about a terrorist attack from some hammers. We have to take it seriously but this is incredibly farfetched, carol. I just think i dont know, like i value my freedom of speech and i dont like when people scare me into doing things that are against my patriotic duty. Thats what terrorism is, its trying to instill fear and i dont think we have to let them. Im glad people are coming on line, people like judd a tow who said i am now going to see this movie. Of course he has a stake in the movie, too. Lets not give him too much credit. Well, people without skin in the game are saying we have to see this movie because we can not let these threats win. So i would guess that sony, its headquarters in japan, is looking into who these hackers are. Whats the word from where you are about who these hackers are . The official word that sony is telling us is that the investigation is ongoing but you can guarantee that behind closed doors right now and around the clock, really, sony is actively trying to figure out who is behind this. Because they have a major stake here, being a japanese company, they have to answer to the japanese government whos not very happy that sony executives here even green lighted a production like this. But theres also Something Else to keep in mind. You talk about the power of a cyber attack. If, in fact, north korea is behind this, think about how this levels the Playing Field for so many decades. North koreas military has kind of been a joke. People havent really taken their Nuclear Program that seriously. But if they have the capability to paralyze a Major American Company and cause this much destruction and fear in the United States, what kind of a message does that send to the rest of the world. Exactly right. You know, the other worrisome thing, in my mind, is that this could have a Chilling Effect on the way people make movies and what they decide to put into movies. The New York Times interviewed seth rogan and asked him, you know, did you ever have a conversation with executives about maybe not putting in the assassination of kim jongun in your movie and seth rogan says nope, were going to have it in. He was adamant that should stay. But they could have created a fictional character. They could have done that. Or maybe not assassinated. But on the other hand, if they had done that, that gets into selfcensorship. I spoke to a security researcher and the first thing he said right as this was happening, he said loor willa millions they lost and the millions they will lose because this hack is very bad. He said this will cause selfcensorship. It probably wouldnt have been worth it for them. And they might not say, hey, were going to sensor this but these will be discussions that theyre going to have to have behind closed doors. Ill just say this. A precursory glance at the inbox of what came out of the Sony Pictures ceo, this is a new type of violation. I mean, these personal details that people are combing through that are readily available online. Can you imagine if your inbox for the last year was available for anybody to look at . This is a new tune of robbery in this new digital era. I think its something we really have to take seriously. Let me ask you this because i read this seriously. I dont remember where, forgive me. But the disseminators of this information being stolen from sony, they were reticent to turn over the information because, you know, no real crime was being committed in their minds. But now that theres this terrorist threat from these hackers, cant they be forced to turn over where theyre getting this information from . I mean i know were not attorneys. Im thinking to myself these are coming from anonymous email accounts and reporters are getting links to other anonymous web sites where these documents are dumped, i dont know how much of a digital trail is accessible. Somebody knows somewhere, though. The way that they this works now, because you have Something Like the network where its very difficult, where it scatters the servers its very difficult to say where this stems from. I think the conversation everyone is having and what changed when they actually is a physical threat of terror is now this theres a different conversation as to when youre looking through those, if even you even look through those because through theres now a real physical threat. Ill have to leave it there. Thanks to all of you. Laurie segall, brian reason stelter, will ripley, i appreciate it. Im back in a minute. Soft holiday music ] can you help me up . [ snow intensifies ] [ sleighbells ring in the distance ] aleve. All day pain relief with just 2 pills. Get back to being you. Come from all walks of life. If you have high blood sugar, ask your doctor about farxiga. Its a different kind of medicine that works by removing some sugar from your body. Along with diet and exercise, farxiga helps lower blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes. With one pill a day, farxiga helps lower your a1c. 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Ask your doctor about farxiga and visit our website to learn how you may be able to get every month free. I want to go back now to our breaking news out of cuba. As ive been telling you all morning long, alan gross, a contractor for the American Government, has been released after five years in a cuban military hospital. He was arrested back in 2009, he was caught smuggling satellite equipment into cuba. 234 exchange for gross release, a prisoner swap. This is where it gets controversial, or one of the areas in which it gets controversial. The American Government has agreed to release three of the socalled cuban five thats a group of cuban spies convicted on espionage charges. They served decades in american jails. Three of them will be released back to cuba in exchange for mr. Alan gross. Lets talk about this. Congressman sam farr, democrat from california, is on the phone right now. Welcome, congressman. Thank you. What great news. Give me more of your reaction to this news. Well, i visited with alan gross in may and he was in very frail condition. Weve been advocating to the president to release alan gross, to get the Prisoners Released because two of them have already been released and i think, frankly, this is a very modern mature move by both countries. Its long overdue. This has been a failed policy for some 53 years. We have a lot of americans that have been traveling there illegally. The enthusiasm to get there and be legal and be able to import and export goods. I think its long overdue. Now congress has a lot of work to do because we have a very onerous law called the helmsburton law and we certainly have to go back and repeal that, or amend it. Does it bother you, the prisoner swap aspect of this . Because cubas going to get back these three cuban spies, theyre they were spying for cuba on United States soil. Theyre responsible for the deaths of some humanitarian aid workers. Should this swap have taken place . Is this a good thing . Well, remember theres that trial which was held in miami has been appealed as to whether it was even a fair trial and theres new evidence that our government influenced the media there very strongly to get those convictions. Weve already allowed the release of two prisoners before their terms were finished so i think these other three prisoners have been there a long time, paid their dues. I think weve been swapping prisoners in other parts of the world. We hear more about cuba prisoners and less about the other ones but i think this is all president s have done prisoner swaps but we open up all kinds of opportunities for americans. This is a great advantage for us and that pressure will bring reforms within cuba. Not only has the United States agreed to this prisoner swap but its agreed to reinstate diplomatic relations, to take cuba off the list of terrorist state, ease travel restrictions, ease banking regulations, even ease some trade with cuba. This supposedly being done without the consent or discussion with lawmakers. How do you feel about that . Well, some lawmakers and in fact probably the majority voice of congress has been trying to get the president to do this for a long time every country in the americas has those president s have asked our country to lift the trade embargo on cuba. Theyre all they all have diplomatic relations, canada, mexico. All the other countries we have a summit coming up. He was asked by the president to allow cuba to come to the next summit. This is the next step to bring the hemisphere together. But still kurks be has long been guilty of serious oau man rights violations. Should at no time president have consulted with congress before he made these moves. Well, weve been doing trade with diplomatic relations and trade with vietnam and they have Human Rights Violations, so do many other countries. I dont think the way to deal with Human Rights Violations is isolation. I think its engagement. Thats whats happening. This is a very major decision by both countries to approach the relationship. I think weve lost congressman farr but thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate the democrat from california being here. I want to bring in thor halvorsen, hes the president of the human rights foundation. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Is i have to tell you, the congressman was wrong on the facts, wrong on the law and wrong on human rights. Its really sad that a member of the u. S. Government would say such things that are so outrageous on this show. Comparing alan gross someone engaged in Civil Society and human rights work with men who murdered innocent people trying to leave cuba. Again, its embarrassing that a member of the u. S. Government would say such things. I understand you were recently cuba and you were mistaken for alan gross . Well, actually, the last time i was in cuba was about two or three weeks before alan gross was arrested and ironically some of my friends thought that it was not al lane gross that was arrested but it was me that was arrested so they were relieved in the one sense but on the other hand it was traj thick happened. Alan gross, one of your guests earlier, described him as a u. S. Asset and that is an outrage. Hes no more a u. S. Asset than cnn or any Civil Society organization or business in the United States is a u. S. Asset. Alan gross was in cuba to deliver cell phones, to deliver material as in educational material, things that are not possible to have in cuba because cuba is a totalitarian country where there is no internet, where there is no freedom of speech, where there is no freedom of assembly, where you cant get a subkripgs to Time Magazine or the economist or Even National enquirer and alan grosss work was trying to break the monopoly of information that they had, that the cuban government has over its people. A 50 to 60yearold dictatorship and what he was trying to do is no different than what my organization does in cuba or in north korea where we try and also break the monopoly of information that that totalitarian country has over its people. So its wrong to describe us as if were spies. Were not spies. And when you look at the condition of mr. Gross, he lost 100 pounds. He lost sight in one eye. He has trouble walking. So cubas care of him certainly hasnt been great. Well, cuba has cuba uses propaganda and pressure to get what they want and the United States could have had alan gross released within weeks of his imprisonment and the Obama Administration chose not to pressure the cuban government. Instead they decided to just lets have dialogue and lets figure out how to do this. The United States government has enough leverage where it could have had alan gross released within a matter of weeks, especially financial pressure on cuba. And anyone who thinks about the embargo and says that its whats causing economic problems in cuba doesnt understand that the embargo restricts American Companies from doing business in cuba. Except with some exceptions. And the list of exceptions is thousands and thousands of products and industries and every other country in the world trades with cuba so you can get chilean wines and you can get swiss cheese and you can get french ham. The idea that poverty in cuba is caused by this embargo is an outrage. The poverty in cuba is caused by the fact that the government controls all employment. The government owns virtually all of the businesses and lords it over their people so the castro brother cans take and keep this loot. There is an argument to be made, i suppose, that the embargo has been in place for, what, more than 50 years, and it hasnt worked. The castros are still in power. Why not take another road . Thats an excellent argument to have and one that the organization that im involved with, we dont have a position on the embargo. But what is important is if people are going to have a discussion on the subject like a member of the u. S. Congress like congressman farr, they maybe should have a little more knowledge about what the facts are as opposed to going with talking points that are being spread by the cuban government and its allies. Cuba is a dictatorship and inviting it to be a part of a democratic gathering of nations is no different than if suddenly we invited the government of north korea. The u. N. Exists for people to theoretically have dialogue with each other and look where that has gotten us. The fact is that isolating nations that are human rights violators does work. It does make a difference. Sanctions made a difference in south africa during apartheid, it made a difference in chile during the pinochet regime. Interesting how people pivot and change their point of view on the subject depending on the ruler. Im going to have to leave it there. Thor halvorsen, thank you so much for joining me, i appreciate it. I want to bring in congresswoman barbara lee, a democrat from california. She joins me on the phone. Welcome and thank you for being with me this morning. Thank you. Really happy to be with you. Happy that youre here. So you just returned from cuba four days ago . No, no, i returned from cuba, actually, last night. I was with i actually led a sevenmember delegation to look really, quite frankly, at the Public Health system and all the issues around scientific research, diabetes and tell me what you think of this . Oh, i think this is a major step. I have had the opportunity to meet with alan gross on four occasions. I know the case very well. I was listening to your prior speaker. We dont need to go into that in detail. I tell you one thing, its about time this takes place. Also its about time that the president really looks at this failed 50year policy and begin to normalize relations. The American People deserve that, they deserve to be able to travel to cuba and we deserve normal relations so we can move forward and put the issues both countries want to talk about and need to talk about regarding whether its hue human rights, whatever it is. It begins with normal diplomatic relations. Very Important Development and im very pleased its happening during chanukah and the holiday season. I wanted to ask you this, if the president should have conferred with the elected representatives in this country before. Well, weve been conferring with the president , many, many years since hes been in office. Also hes doing within what his executive power. The president has certain authorities that he needs to exercise when in fact it has to do with his office as the presidency. This is a policy that needs to change the president s doing everything he can do within his executive power to do it and Congress Needs to do what we need to do to fully begin to lift the embargo. I know cuba very well. I understand the issues around cuba and my first visit and ive been now at least 21 times in 77. 1977 as a staffer to one of the first congressional members who visited cuba and this is congressman rondell lums who was then calling for an end to the embargo and normal relations. Recognizing both sides had economic, political issues to address. And so this has been a long time coming, the president did absolutely the right thing. We need to move forward now and begin to engage in normal relations so the American People can participate in educational exchanges if they so choose, they can visit cuba. I get it, i want to ask you one question. In your mind what has raul castro done to deserve this . Give me one thing . I dont think its about what any country has done to deserve anything. We have normal relations with vietnam, we have normal relations with china, we need to move forward to work with president raul castro to make sure that normal relations between the United States are respectful and that in fact all of the issues that we care about as it relates to cuba. Like what . What about Human Rights Violations . All of those are on the table. What about human rights violation . Has castro done anything tangible about that. Any Human Rights Violations need to be addressed but also remember the president has always talked about Human Rights Violations everywhere in the world and we have to really recognize that you cant do anything about human rights if you have an embargo where youre not engaged in talks and discussions i think with more americans going cuba, when you talk about democracy, when you talk about issues of free speech, all of those issues are issues that both sides need to talk about, address and come together and deal with. But remember, this is going to take two countries engaging, you cant be isolated from the rest of the world if, in fact, Human Rights Concerns which there are many Human Rights Concerns again everywhere in the world. You have to have some form of bilateral engagement to address them. All right. Ill have to leave it there. Congresswoman barbara lee, thanks so much for your insight this morning. I appreciate it. Ill be right back. 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Im pushing it real good i want to end with fun so lets lighten the mood. Two brothers on opposite sides of the political aisle found out youre never too old to be scolded by your mother. Brad is the former communications for the Democratic National committee, dallas a republican is founder of a Public Policy nonprofit in North Carolina and yesterday on cspan while talking about the film they got a surprise call from their mom. Lets go to joy in raleigh, North Carolina. Hey, somebody from down south youre right im from down south. Oh, god, its mom. And im your mother and i disagree that all families are like ours. I dont know many families that are fighting at thanksgiving. Is this really your mother . Yes, this is really our mom. I was very glad that this thanksgiving was a year that you two were supposed to go to your in laws and i was hoping and im hoping youll have some of this out of your system when you come here for christmas. I would really like that. I would really like a peaceful kxas and i love you both. Let me jump in because this was was not planned. She called in on the normal line. Since you did call in, whats it like to raise these two boys . Well, it hadnt been easy. [ laughter ] no truer words have ever been said. We love you, mom. And i love politics. Their dad and i both love politics, we followed the entire country. I know that we have to take responsibility for them and theyre both very passionate about what they believe in and i love that about them but i hope they just kind of get this out of their system. I just love the expressions on their faces. You guys look like scolded schoolboys. I felt scolded. Let me tell you something, ive been around this game a long time and it takes a lot to find somebody that can make me speechless and my mother did it yesterday. Although, joyce, i have to say, you are responsible for your sons. You raised them to become the men they are. Thats right thats correct. And i am i am basically proud of them. Basically. I just dont want a reporter at my house this christmas. I have eight grandchildren and of course thats loud enough. Somebody said it was the most exciting clip in cspan history. Exciting and cspan i love cspan, but exciting and fun are not usually two words you put together with cspan. But look, i cant lie here on cnn. I dont know that were going to give mom what she wants because i got to tell you, i dont know that a leopard can change his spots. Come the next election, my brother will be staring down at 50 and i just dont know that we can change thanks, dallas. Since we put a beatdown on his side this time i got a few licks i need to give him on this election. So i dont know if i can lie to my mama who i love. Brad, let me ask you this question because my mother forbids me to talk about anything political because we have very different views so i can relate to the conversation you had on air with your mother joy. But why cant you guys resist fighting or arguing or debating politics just for an hour or two during dinner . I mean, carol, we try. It is so hard, though. We are engaged in this political combat virtually every day of our lives. We have decently high profile jobs in politics, we clashed over obamacare i won that one, by the way. But in any event but man its so hard when youre a whole kind of your life, your day, your career is so tied up in these issues and were polar opposites so we cant even have a theoretical discussion of these things without getting into arguments. Carol, lassie cant stop being a dog. Bill clinton cant stop checking out women. And we cant stop stop it, dallas. We cant stop talking about politics. If we didnt we didnt joy, i feel your pain. Youre upsetting your mother, stop, i have to end it there. Mom loves it. She loves it. She loves us. I want him to hush right now. I love you, mama. All right. I love you, honey. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here. Merry christmas that was awesome. All right, we have to get serious and get back to the breaking news. As you know, an american prisoner held captive in cuba for the past five years his name is alan gross, h efs released in a prisoner swap. Three cuban spies in jail here in the United States get to go back to cuba if exchange for mr. Gross. Weve been talking to ana navarro, our cnn political analyst for some time this morning. You just got a call from the weiss. Tell us about it. I did. Obviously they are monitoring the news and watching cnn. They tell me that it is not a prisoner swap for the three spies and alan gross, that it was a swap of the three cuban spies for a high level u. S. Intel asset that had been held in cuba for over 20 years who they are not going to name. And then the humanitarian release, the good act by the cuban government of doing a humanitarian release of alan gross who had been held for over five years. Obviously as i speak to bob menendez, i just read his statement he put out. Ma r corubio and all the other cuban american members of congress, i dont think anybodys buying that. Its a stretch but thats what the white house was saying. It was not a swap of three spies for an american being held in prison, it was a swan of three cuban spies for a high level u. S. Intel asset. So a u. S. Spy in cuba was being held for the past 20 years. Had you heard about that . Do you know anything about this other this american spy that was being held in cuba that the white house is telling you about . She cant hear me. I was wondering why she didnt answer me. This is getting more and more interesting. Raul castro, the president of cuba will also give a News Conference in his country that will happen at noon eastern time. Of course cnn will continue to follow this breaking news throughout the day. Thank you for joining me today, im carol kos toll low. this hour with berman and michaela starts now. Hello, everyone. Im john berman. And. And im michaela pereira. History is being made at this hour after more than a half century of tension and diplomat diplomatic silence between the u. S. Its releasing alan gross from prison after five years. A series of genuinely breathtaking developments. Cuba is also releasing a u. S. Intelligence asset, a spy, whos been locked up in cuba for more than