these cases. and what? the worst-case mario might be that you get a knock at your door from the sergeant at arms, maybe a slap on the wrist? best-case an aerial, politically, you get a badge of honor that you stuck it to the man. they were really more afraid of ignoring a doj criminal subpoena then a congressional one and they took their chances time and time again that the doj wouldn't prosecute you for laughing at a congressional subpoena. you know what else? in the past, that very thought process paid off. but now, this conviction, well this series of convictions, now puts the light back in the dog because when you are facing some jail time suddenly people start to take your requests more seriously. now, people like congressman jimmy jordan of ohio who, incels, you will recall was roundly criticized for, shall we say, not prioritizing congressional subpoenas aimed at him. now he is in leadership. so the big question is what we see the flood gates began to open and subpoenas about everything from the highly consequential to the trivial. all now of course having the weight of the threat of what these convictions can bring and that is now behind them. will it then mean greater transparency, more accountability on the issues that matter to you or will it be about retaliation? joining me now to discuss, california congresswoman barbara lee who is running for the senate seat that will be left vacant when senator diane feinstein retires next year. congressman lee, it's nice to see this evening, thank you so much for joining. i have to ask you because, this has been on my mind all day long thinking about this conviction, the subpoena now is back, really, it has some tease again. but, as you know, republicans have the house majority and they has not been shy to date talking about things that they intend to use against, perhaps, democrats. this is now an opportunity for some kind of, maybe not-for-tat, but okay, subpoenas mean something we are going to use them. what is your thought? >> nice being with you, laura. my thoughts on this, first of all, navarro and others have really chosen to side with the insurrectionists and they are getting justice at this point. secondly, we have to know and recognize that the republicans, the maga extremists republicans, are not doing their job for the american people. they are not delivering, there are not making life better for everyone. they are not ingesting inflation or the cost of living, addressing affordable health care or housing. they're going to do what they do, that's who they are. but the public understands what is taking place and i just have to say that i believe, and i have said from day one, that dome trump was running a criminal enterprise out of the white house. that is what is taking place. so, these are maga extremist republicans will do what they have to do or do what they want to do based on their own agenda, but we have a system of justice in this country that we are seeing play out now. of course, the wheels of justice are sometimes slow, but it is happening and that is what it's important. >> you know who's agrees with you congresswoman lee, about the idea of a criminal enterprise, the fulton county d.a., fani willis, who has got of course charged him and 18 other codefendants with accounts under rico the criminal enterprise statute. talking about what happened leading up to january 6th and of course overturning, or attempting to overturn the results in fulton county and georgia. that same d.a. wrote a scathing letter to your fellow person in congress, jim jordan, i'm going to quote here, your job destruction as a legislature does not include criminal law enforcement, no or does it include supervising a specific criminal trial because you believe doing so will promote your partisan political objectives. she's not really pulling any punches here and, as you know, people have been very, very, well, critical of her and other prosecutors who have gone after donald trump on behalf of her communities. so, his colleagues, by the way, they have been pointing out, when it comes to cases like this issuing subpoenas or trying to have an investigation about fani willis in particular, does this now open up a kind of pandora's box that this is now fair game and she might have to respond? >> what they are doing, all with all these maga extremist revelations, they're trying to took up what actually took place quite frankly. and they're going to do whatever they are going to do. but, what is important is to recognize that jordan and these maga extremist republicans are trying it to blur the lines in terms of our democracy, in terms of the three branches of government. they are interfering in activities and complaints and lawsuits that they don't have jurisdiction over. and so they are just trying to protect donald trump, they are part of his client, they are part of his cold, and in fact they need to, in the public i think is understanding this more and more and more, so they are going to do what they do. the public has to weigh in big-time, but i think that you see this system of justice working. >> congresswoman, the public is starting to weigh in more and more. cnn has a new poll out today and it shows that about three quarters of americans say that they are seriously concerned about president biden's age, that it might affect his physical, mental competence,'s ability to serve out another full term. you are also vying to fill a seat in the senate now that will be left vacant by someone who has been under the spotlight for quite sometime amid health declines and concerns. do you see the same criticism applicable to president biden in the way that it is being described? >> president biden, the biden harris administration has delivered for the people, and i think what is important is to look at the experience and what in fact has been done over the past few years since the biden harris administration has been in office. the inflation reduction act, passed the transportation bill, passed the chips bill, creating good paying union jobs, coming forward with areas that had not been even discussed as it relates to the climate crisis. so we have to look at what the president has done, we have to evaluate what he has done and what he is going to do in the future, and remember that experience counts. he has delivered for the american people and i am confident that they are going to evaluate him and grade him based on their lives and how their lives are getting better. we have not completely addressed inflation, but we are moving in the direction where people and the cost of living is becoming a heck of a lot better for many people, not for all, but getting better. so we have to keep on this course. >> i don't want to gloss over something you said, and it was something that i hope the audience has not missed because, frankly, the nuance of it is becoming more and more apparent in political talking points on the other side of the aisle. you said the biden harris administration. now, one of the things that has been said by at least one republican hopeful, governor nikki haley, former ambassador to the u.n., which was taken as a very crude and crafts notion that she thought that, somehow, because at his age president joe biden would not be able to survive his term and the now statements being made is that a vote for president biden is really a vote for a vice president harris. now, you are from california and obviously she was in the senate there. she was the attorney general, there you are quite familiar with her work obviously. she has taken a lot of criticism about her position as this advice president, a lot of criticism about her trajectory or ability to become the president of the united states having run before, obviously unsuccessfully. why do you think she is being targeted in particular as the talking point about what a vote for biden would mean? >> well, the biden harris administration has done a phenomenal job delivering for the american people. vice president kamala harris is a woman of color, she is a woman, very first time we have had a woman of color or a woman in the white house serving as our vice president. oftentimes people don't know how to even deal with this and it is really a shame and disgrace. so, she is doing her job. when the clinton administration was, in the clinton gore administration, when the bush cheney administration where we talked about the bush cheney administration. we are talking about the biden harris administration and the accomplishments that they made and what they are going to do in the future to make life better for everyone. >> being judged definitely as a black woman with a platform i have no idea what you're talking about congresswoman barbara lee, it's something that i should be familiar in some way shape or form. i hope you realize i'm waking you nodding in some way shape or form right now. nice to be with you this evening. >> nice being with you. >> i want to bring in david schoen everyone, steve bannon's lawyer and also then president trump's defense lawyer in a second impeachment trial. david, it is good to see you tonight thank you for joining me. i have to ask you about what i have been thinking about all day, the news has been covering the fact that there was this guilty verdict about navarro being in tempt of congress, i'm thinking about the future what this will mean of course in congress. what will it mean for subpoena power, what it means for a whole host of issues. you are probably thinking about it because your client, steve bannon, also had similar charges against him and convictions and he is now appealing. so, when you heard about navarro now having this guilty verdict what went through your head >> i think his conviction was a foregone conclusion once the judge ruled on the issues of law in case immolated the rulings in bannon's case, although a major difference in navarro's case is that the judge found that mr. neuronally proved executive privilege, had invoked and in our case it's not a question about that it was invoked by the president's lawyer, justin clark, and then during the course of the, just before the trial, president trump confirmed that he had invoked executive privilege and that was admitted to the jury. there are a lot of similar issues but steve bannon's case, one thing that has to be pointed out is that, maybe this gives mr. navarro some hope, the judge in steve bannon's case who ruled against him on all the legal issues, also let him out on bail pending appeal and made a specific finding that i've never encountered before in a case. that finding was that the trial judge found that it is likely that the ban and conviction will be reversed and that the legal issues he rules on, while his hands were bound by a court of appeals decision, cannot comport with moderate definition of willfully, or their judicial definition of willfully. it thinks there is a problem with the law and the conviction will be reversed. >> when you look at that issue and, of course, all these matters are going on appeal there is no doubt that navarro's case will also be appealed. he thinks all the way to the supreme court. your issue of executive privilege is different than what navarro is talking about because navarro did claim that trump instructed him to invoke the privilege. the judge found, no, i don't think, so there is no evidence of that. so it's a little different in that argument. but, the novelty of what you are describing, remind me, what do you mean that there is something that is likely to be appealed? is the fact that there was a contempt of congress because he didn't fight with the congressional subpoena so what would be the likelihood of being overturned? >> there are a number of extraordinary issues, conked did use militias to be appealed. what you are focusing on is the definition of willfully. the statute requires that you prove that the defendant willfully defaulted on the subpoena. however, this statute is unique in the way that the d.c. circuit is construed in the 1961 case called lick of okee. it says it doesn't matter what your reason is for not showing, up unless it -- it doesn't matter. and so, therefore, if you were a lot of executive privilege, or in this case, or large not only on executive privilege but his lawyer gave testimony in this case through affidavit declarations that he instructed bannon, it was not his privilege to waive, he was not permitted as a matter of law to testify or to comply with a subpoena in any way that was not his choice. and bannon hired the lawyer, but the judge said that i understand that, but you cannot rely on the advice of counsel. he goes, that is used to knock out whether it was willfully. i don't care, the law doesn't care if it with willful or not. you had a subpoena, you didn't show up, you didn't comply, therefore under -- you are guilty. but then the judge said that i think the volley is wrongly decided. that's not what we mean, the supreme court said that in 2019, 2022, that willfully means an intent to do something that the law forbid. you have to have a guilty conscience of mind. that isn't understood here, the only way he can comply with a law was not comply with a subpoena and he said to ticketed committee let's go to court. take it to a judge, if you judge orders me to comply i will comply. sorry, i cut you off. >> no, no, it's okay, i invited you to speak and i want to have the conversation and i'm glad to hear your insight. you're talking about bannon, i also want to distinguish about what is happening with navarro because law the arguments erasing in support of bannon, some will obviously be raised by council for navarro. but, there is that distinction of course in what trump said in the privileged executive when a court has ruled. little willful-ness though, for the layman listening, which is the big majority of the population, when you hear willful you think okay, well, you were told to do something. it did you choose did not to do it or what? and if you didn't have the evidence to support that you were instructed and you had the privilege behind you or some reasonable basis like that and you didn't comply, isn't that willful enough? that is going to be a hurdle for navarro and he also spoke about that on the courthouse steps. but, taking a step back to david, when you look at the big picture for all of this, right, some of the people now are using the congressional subpoena power themselves to the question the lady of congressional subpoenas, have now undermined the gravitas assigned to it. is that going to impact, do you think, the ability of future people to be subpoenaed and to fight? it >> i think you put your finger on a very important issue and, not surprisingly, i think a lot of people ought to be asking. so because you are asking it they will be. i think that is right. we have this retaliation business, nobody is tougher than representative lee and she spoke about this a few minutes ago with you. i think that is right. on the other hand, you have a movement in congress that has some measure to it. do you member of the january six committee wasn't convened, mccarthy and these others are raising holy hack that they violated protocol never been number four, they had no ranking minority member, but they convened a group called blagult bla g, that endorsed what happened. that the rules were followed and all that. i suspected that mccarthy, now that they are in the majority, they filed a minority race back then that that's the we are going to reconvene black and that the committee wasn't properly convened. there is no minority, member violated this rule not, rule of what we do see that kind of retaliation. we haven't yet, but if he meant what he said and i think, to be consistent he has to do that now. so, i don't know where it ends. >> -- has given them some bright ideas of our. if only david sean they had something to talk about beside the subpoenas. if only there was a government shutdown looming at the end of this month. well, i guess that is a different matter for congress entirely. nice to talk to you. >> nice to talk to you, thanks very much. >> coming up next everyone, there is breaking news. what rudy giuliani is doing tonight to try to pay his legal bills and what it has to do with the former president named donald trump. ♪ chevy silverado has whwhat it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? 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( ♪ ) all right, there's breaking news tonight everyone. donald trump is hosting a fund-raiser for rudy giuliani. we are learning just how deep in debt the onetime trump attorney is now. here to discuss -- a former federal prosecutor and contributing writer for politico and sarah matthews with his trump's white house deputy press secretary. good to see both of you here today. first we begin here, because the headline, trump is headlining and event to try to get rid of giuliani some money. i think it costs about $100,000 a plate, but there is might be millions of dollars in debt. this is something significant that, one, he is even headlining, it right? and two, how is he supposed to climb out of this particular debt, sir? >> i mean, he is facing so many issues, rudy giuliani, in terms of all of these cases. if you look at the georgia case where he has also been indicted. you look at the doj case, they are also pursuing. and then he also has the defamation case where ruby freeman and shaye moss the election workers in georgia have won that case and it hasn't been determined, i believe, what he is going to have to pay for that defamation case. but he is facing a lot of financial burden here and i think that trump knows that rudy giuliani is a central figure in all of this and that, if he were to flip, it would be very harmful for him. so, he is a trying to keep rudy giuliani and his good graces, keep him on his side saying what he wants him to say and he does that by helping him pay his financial fees for these legal burdens that he is facing. >> what do they say, keep your friends close keep your enemies closer? keep your codefendants within your own body at that time. it's getting less and less attractive at enticing to be an ally of trump in these matters because of the mounting legal fees, one, but also there are now codefendants, in a number of cases. what we are seeing a little bit of a shift. but some of the accountability, taking a step back, if you look and i want to put up a list for people to get an idea of what we are talking about. this is the fallout, everyone, the fallout since january six. he got all of these people who's been, named got convictions. i would note enrico tarrio is one. what, 22 years in prison? rudy giuliani, as sara mentioned, the 780 million bucks he has had to pay. that is just a few of the things that are going on. i mean you have been a federal prosecutor, does this tell you that you are having an easier lift now as the cases go on? these are not really test cases any longer in the same way, there might be proof of concept. >> i think all of these things represent positive steps towards accountability under the laws surrounding, obviously, the events of the 2020 election. the efforts to overturn the election. the other thing that we know as lawyers is that these things take a lot of time. they can travel very strange paths and it is important i think to try to put these things into context. in the navarro and then involved to q, shuns bannon is still out on bail pending appeal. navarro may find himself in the same position. both of them are banking, or at least hoping, that trump will potentially pardon them. that was very much in the realm of possibility. and giuliani is liable for civil damages but that's not a criminal case it is still going on and so how much giuliani may have to pay those people is yet to be seen. so, this is so very much a story that is ongoing and will be going for years, but these are definitely positive steps. >> speaking of navarro, sarah, his role as a white house adviser obviously, when you think about the role that he played, take us behind the scenes a little bit. was he kind of an omnipresent figure? was he around a great deal? did he really have the ear of the president to think that he would have that executive privilege benefit and get the president to support him here? >> yeah, so, peter navarro's title at the white house was that he was the trade advisor. but, honestly, he stuck his nose in just about anything he could. he had a strong hand in our covid response. he also had a strong hand in trying to overturn the 2020 election results and so not necessarily part of his job description but he definitely tried to influence other matters outside of that and so -- >> he was welcomed to that as? well >> i don't know if he was always necessarily welcome, but he was known to just walk into meetings, barge into things, and make himself a presence and these things and try to be part of the discussion. he was someone who was a longtime loyalist and supporter of trump. it was a die hard maga person and he was with trump from the beginning and obviously is still with him to this day. so, i think that it is a little interesting to me that he chose to not just comply with the subpoena, it seems like an odd thing to fall on the sword for. he could have just gone in, complied with a subpoena like many other trump allies did. the people who didn't want to answer the questions before the january six committee just pled the fifth. so i don't understand peter navarro trying to seem like he is some martyr for doing this when, if he could've just avoided this, honestly, but it is interesting and we will have to see how it plays out. >> why did he do that? many people went in, negotiated in advance, they either told him why they weren't, or pled the fifth mobile times. what was the logic there? >> my honest answer is some combination of arrogance and stupidity. honestly, i don't see how he could've found himself in this position. there were so many easy ways to avoid this outcome and he seemed's to have blown right past them. >> i mean, he's not the first person to step on the rake in washington d.c.. ankush khardori, sarah matthews, thank you both so much. well, that man hunt that we have been covering for, what, eight days? now it is heating up for the escaped murderer danelo calvin conte. tonight lawn force mint or confirming that they have saw him again. we'll go live to pennsylvania, next. de hug. tween milestones like this may start at age 9. hpv vaccination—a type of cancer prprevention against certain hpv-related cancers, c can start then too. for most, hpv clears on its own. but for others, it can cause certain cancers later in life. you're welcome! now, as the “dad cab”, it's my cue to help protect them. embrace this phase. help protect them in the next. ask their doctor today about hpv vaccination. bath fitter is a better way to remodel your tub. a custom-made watertight fit and high quality materials mean a beautiful tub and a great value. bath fitter. it just fits. visit bathfitter.com to book your free consultation. more shopping? you should watch your spending honey. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? ohhhhhh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. well, the man hunt for the escaped murder in pennsylvania is heating up at this very moment. state police confirming another sighting of danelo cavalcante, this is a very evening, but no details yet as to when or where and why haven't they captured him? yet we are learning that please have now shifted their search location in just last hour. for more want to bring in cnn's brian todd who's in westchester, pennsylvania for us tonight. let's roll through this timeline for a second since the escape, because i want to see how many times in the past week there has been sightings of him. look at this. it is 8:51, you have got 9:45, you have him walking up that jailhouse wall. we are still in all of that. 9:40, five officers notify central control of the missing inmate. 9:48, officers informing that he was no longer in the prison, it isn't locked down a few moments later and you have got a siren of that sound. and then you go to friday, you've got sightings around 11:30 pm by a resident of the area. the next day, on saturday, 1:43 a ring camera at a resident as well, monday september 4th is walking north of a security camera at longwood gardens. 9:33 he is spotted walking again around noon on thursday, the possible fighting, and that now this evening just in the last hour, brian todd, they are now shifting their search. what can you tell us? >> that is right, laura, it's a very interesting timeline. several sightings that you mentioned in the last now almost eight days since his escape. we can tell you that we learned a short time ago that the search perimeter has shifted slightly west of where it was a few hours ago. it has shifted slightly west, but it still includes parts of longwood gardens, another significant piece of information tonight. a couple of hours ago we learned that there was another sighting of danelo cavalcante this evening. that means that this is the first time in one given day that we have had two separate sightings of him. the first one was about almost 12 hours ago, so this was in fact two sightings within the span of about 12 hours. the first time that that has happened in one day since he escaped. what we can also tell you is that longwood gardens, for a period, was shut down, they had moved the guests out of that facility and out of that park and that they had told employees, at one point during the evening, to shelter in place. at one point during this evening they were searching an area of interest in longwood gardens. i can tell you, unequivocally, that this search perimeter has been extremely fluid. our team here, we are not far from that search permit, or by the, way. we have felt it physically. a lot of time we would put down in one place, the police would ask us to move to another. then squad cars would come by at high speeds with lights flashing and we would be asked to move to get another place. so we physically have been moved around quite often tonight, so we can feel how fluid this is. and, we can tell you that, my colleague erin cooper spotted a couple of different things. he spotted a tactical unit, officers with camouflage gear, tactical guests carrying long guns. he's boarded a horse unit not long from here. they have deployed several different types of assets at pretty high speeds. a lot of fluid movement, fast movement tonight all-around this perimeter area as it has shifted. now, experts will tell you that that is not unusual in a search like this. the search perimeter often shifts. but i can tell you that it has been extremely fluid within the past 12 hours, laura. >> brian todd, thank, you we will keep on top of this story for us, i can only imagine about what the family of the victim's thinking that this person is out and not able to be found at this point. thank you so much. i want to bring in our former president warden cameron lindsey. cameron, thank you so much for joining us tonight. i have so many questions, there are so many people about the fact we are now on day eight of this extremely dangerous person who has been convicted and sentenced to life in prison still out on the loose, sightings around the area. this was the second prison escape it seems from this ear alone. i have got to ask you, you have been awarding. how does that happen and what is going wrong that it is able to happen? >> well, a number of things. first of all, this is extremely unfortunate and extremely disappointing. it is really, anytime there is an escape from a correctional facility i consider that the quintessential failure in the profession of corrections because whenever you have an escape, it is a mission failure. because the mission of any correctional facility is to safeguard the community and this not only did not happen on the last day of august of this year, but it happened in may as well. so, it really has to make you wonder what is going on. i think what i would say, you have got a guy here who was a sentence, a two-time murderer. he is in a county jail. jails are typically for pretrial sentence inmates, this individual, as you know laura, was sentenced inmate and was awaiting designation to a pennsylvania state department of corrections facility for services sentenced. in my humble estimation, and it is always easy to monday morning quarterback, but in my estimation once this individual was found guilty and sentenced he is a sentenced inmate at that point. from my perspective, i think that the most prudent thing to do would have been to remove him from the general population and isolate him in a special house unit pending designation to transfer to the prison where he was going to serve his sentence with the state. >> that's really important point. to think about why he was in that particular location. of course we have seen this video of him crab locking up the wall, we have learned now that he got on the roof, he went through razor wire, apparently, and was able to escape somehow after that. i want to take a step back though and think about this timeline that shows his escape and that he was missing for a period of time, nearly an hour, i would mention, according to the timeline. nearly an hour before the prison even noticed he was gone. now, what does that signal to do? is that a staffing issue, a matter of somebody turning maybe a willful blind eye? do you have suspicions here or do you look at this and say this happens far more often than you think? >> no, it does not. i worked as a practitioner in jails and prisons for 25 years and i was never at a facility where escape was affected in my entire career. it happens, but, as i say, it is the quintessential failure in this business. when you look at this individual, the way that he crab walked up the roof and off the premises, you could argue that since the administration did not remove him from the general population and isolate him in special housing, if they are going to leave him in general population than he should have been under closer supervision. for a two-time convicted murderer in a county jail who is facing life, and this guy is obviously extremely dangerous. so if he is not going to be in the special housing unit, then he should have been under some type of closer supervision. so, it is hard to tell if this can be attributed to a lack of funding, a lack of staffing, and in terms of him being able to crab lock up the side of that wall, and as i read, it was described that he was able to push through razor wire. i can tell you from experience that either they are not using enough razor wire, or it is not installed properly. in my experience, and looking at this guy going up the wall, he's not wearing body armor. he's not wrapped in a blanket or something to protect him from razor wire. nobody in my opinion is going to be able to push through sufficient razor wire, minus body armor, without getting shredded up. as you have a from video evidence over the last eight days or so, this guy does not appear to be significantly injured. >> cameron lindsey, i want to note that he was convicted of murdering one person here in the united states and had a warrant out for his arrest for a suspected homicide in brazil where his national. all the insight you just gave is so valuable, to think about how all of this happened and what should have been done and what could be done. out of, course my mind goes to what is the prison population now like in that particular facility? what are they thinking? surely they have hurt something by now. thank you for joining us. >> yes ma'am, thank you. >> tonight there is new cnn polling that shows president biden, well, he is got to some serious ground to make up with 2024 looming. about 425 days away, but who is counting. we will go through the numbers next. except t the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we leave so much ununtapped potential on the tab? this is a next level bed, for a next l level you. my circadian rhythm is kicking your circadian rhythms butt! it's not a competition. i know, but i'm still winning! so, it is a competition. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number. so many people are overweight now and asking themselves, "why can't i lose weight?" for most, the reason is insulin resistance, and they don't even know they he it. conventionalstarvation s don't address insulin resistance. that's why they don't work. now there's golo. golo helps with insulin resistance, getting rid of sugar cravings, helps control stress and emotional eating and losing weight. go to golo.com and see how golo can change your life. that's golo.com. ♪ ♪ when you have chronic kidney disease... there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ well, there is bad news everyone and it has really bad news if you're joe biden and you're talking about our brand-new cnn poll. the president's job approval standing at just 39%, that same poll shows him neck and neck with republican front runner donald trump, with trump at 47% and biden at 46%. the president also a distinct lack of enthusiasm from members of his own party among democratic and democratic-leaning voters. 67% said that their party should nominate someone other than biden. democrats and the hill weighing in on the dismal numbers earlier today making it pretty clear that biden, well, he's got some work to do. >> i think the people basically have spoken loud and clear that they're not happy with the two choices. >> there's no doubt about it, the poll say what they say. >> >> 14 months until an election and there's a lot of work we have to do. >> well, joining me now, marc mccann and former adviser to george w. bush and john mccain, executive producer of the circus. as well as cnn political commentator and democratic strategist paul -- . got every both here. let me get with you paul, it might be a little bit odd that we are just playing or showing the west virginia senator as the first democrat to have something to say about those, but he did -- something about it. they're trying estimate crossed brush this off, to say that there's a lot of ground to make up. there is a lot of time. even a week is a century in politics. but, this is a lot of ground to cover. >> well, it is. i think that both are right. the most important numbers, 425. he has got world enough of time, as the poet said. this is not unprecedented. i brought a poll, six in ten americans think that the president should not run for reelection. if you were to run, he will be trailing his likely opponent. a large percentage, 35% of people who voted for him last time won't vote from next time. that ronald reagan. that's what they're writing impulse about reagan. he ran in 49 states. i worked for bill clinton in the summer of 1995 he was trailing bob dole, but by the end of 19 it you five he was ahead by 19 points. what happened? this is where i criticize biden's team. some of this is just the -- e has to do seven things, i'll be quick. i put them in alphago that'll order so he can remember them. attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack. if he has time, june 8th. he is trying to win an argument, not election. when 70% think you are moving in the wrong direction, you're not gonna get a lot of people saying thank you, good job, thank you. you can get people say forget you. that's what he's gotta do, he's got a draw contrast. >> mark, we'll bring you into the cause conversation as well. when we think about how this is going to play out and what this says, one really surprising thing that i thought about the poll was that there was nikki haley who seemed to be besting biden by six points in this poll. he is not actually dusting donald trump or even one of the front runners in the primary, but that she was not in the center of the stage for the debate as you remember. that was ramaswamy and governor desantis. what does this idea that nikki haley, who can't really make a lot of headway in the rnc polling and debates, might be the person on this poll to say that she bested him by six percentage points? >> listen, if i administer new stirred truth serum the polling might admit it, but almost everybody knows that nikki haley would be by far the best republican nominee and the greatest threat to joe biden. i'm sure in white house conversations they are the candidate that they fear the most for lots of reason. she is a woman, a woman of color, she had a great debate, she spoke truth on trump being a terrible nominee for the party, she spoke truth about spending, i think that paul is the best in the business and he is right about reagan and clinton, but here's the problem they didn't have. they weren't going to be 86 at the end of the second term. this is a problem that joe biden cannot fix. he can spend all the money that he wants, but the problem that, even among democrats, he has lost 14 points in terms of inspiring confidence in the last six months. he has lost 19 points in terms of his perception of the stamina first serve. that's among democrats. so, he can tell his story about everything that he has done, but the thing that he is concerned about is this age and that he cannot fix that. >> so, first of all, paul, do you think it is time at this point now for a third party candidate? because i think, in many ways, the dye has been cast in terms of who is likely to be this rematch potentially in 2024. a lot of time to go by, but is this an opportunity for that based on what you said? >> that is for mark. >> i'm sorry, i thought that was for paul. yes, of course i do, 80% of the country does not think that biden should run. 70% plus don't think that trump should run. nobody is happy with either of these nominees, potential nominees of the parties. so that creates a huge opening, and historic, unprecedented historically, to have two potential nominees that are so unpopular. so it creates an opening a mile wide for that potential, absolutely. >> real quick ball? >> the most impregnable readout in american politics is the trump base. he is going to get 45, but he can't get 50. he has never won a day in his life at 50% of support in america. so the surest way to elect trump is to run a third party candidacy. it's simple rhythmic. any third party candidate will elect trump, period. whether it is from the center, the left, anything. because they're not going to take votes away from donald trump. he always said that he could shoot a man on fifth avenue and not lose any votes. a civil jury found that he sexually abused a woman on fifth avenue a didn't lose any votes. so this, i understand if it is, there's good meal behind, it you're going to elect trump 100%. i will bet mark mckinnon's life savings, which are a lot higher than mine. >> i don't want to get into this battle right now gentlemen, mark mckinnon, paul, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opipinion. 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