Kamala harris and that first democratic debate that seems to have shaken up the president ial race. I was talking with you and jill. You said you were expecting to have a target on your back. But the intensity of some of it. Did you see the questions about your past positions from the perspective of race being as relevant as they are . No, and i dont think theyre relevant because theyre taken out of context. What i didnt see is people who know me. I mean they know me well. Its not like its somebody that just came out of the blue and didnt know anything. Its so easy to go back and go back 30, 40, 50 years and take a context and take it completely out of context. You know, i get all this information about other peoples past and what they have done and not done. And, you know, im just not going to go there. If we keep doing that, we should be debating what we do from here. For example, this whole thing about race and busing. I think if you take a look, our positions arent any different as were finding out. With senator harris, who said she sees it as a tool, not a must in all circumstances. Yeah. Well, look at my record. Busing is about policy, mr. Vice president. No, its not. I think its about principle. When you look back on your record on it, you were not in favor of busing. It was a different time, there were different applications. Why not just own it and say i was against it but now ive changed. I was in favor of busing that was de jurae busing. If the court ruled that there was a law passed, a circumstance that a county, a city, a state did that prevented black folks from being somewhere, that was wrong, you should bus. I even went so far in the middle of that busing controversy saying id use helicopters if that was necessary to make the point. That was in a town meeting that got very hot. But what the issue is now, and it was then, voluntary busing. We supported it. We supported it then. By the way, barack and i as president and Vice President we provided money for voluntary busing for cities that wanted to do it. Im saying when you look back in the 70s you said i think busing doesnt work, its an asinine concept. Busing did not work. You had overwhelming response from the Africanamerican Community in my state. My state is the eighth largest black population in the country as a percent of population. They did not support it. They did not support it. Look, the question is how do you equalize education in every area . And i put forward the most aggressive plan to do that and ive been pushing it for a long time. For example, title i schools, schools with a disadvantage, i propose we go from 15 billion a year to 45 billion a year. We should bring people in and have preschool from 3, 4, 5 years old, before kindergarten. Look, every child out there, every child out there is capable, but they live in circumstances that make it difficu difficult. From the time they get to school they have heard three or four, five Million Words spoken. Theyre at a disadvantage. I totally accept that. Number two, 65 out of 100 jobs point out you need something beyond a high school degree. So what are we doing . Were sitting around here as if its an insoluble problem. I get it on the policy. I never have viewed the busing back and forth in that debate as about policy or application of how to effect civil rights. Its about consistency and would you be better than what were dealing with in the white house which is people wont tell the truth about things. If busing didnt work, then it made sense you werent for it back then. Why say you were for it . Theres three different pieces. I was for voluntary busing. Number one, i was for busing where the court showed that a legislative body took an action preventing black folks from going to a school. The difficult piece is this is 50 years ago, people dont understand the context. The third one is do you have an administration through their nonelected officials, department of housing, decide every school should be equally balanced across the board. Thats a different issue. The way to deal with that problem is what i did from the time i was a kid. I got out of law school, came back and became a public defender. I fought for putting lowincome housing in suburbia. I talked about eliminating red line. I talked about School Districts should be consolidated in ways that made sense so in fact why didnt you fight it like this in the debate . In 30 seconds . Come on, man. What happens most in the debate, mr. Vice president. People blow their time cue. Youre the only person ive seen that said you were out of time. What i didnt want to do is get in that scrum. Take me out of it. I thought boy, i really like the way thats being conducted. Theyre really showing themselves to do really well. Come on, man. But theyre going come after you. Sure theyre going come after you. Were you prepared for them to come after me . I was prepared for them coming after me but i wasnt prepared for the person the way she did. She knew beau, she knows me. But what i do know, its the good and the bad news. The American People think they know me and they know me. Since that occurred, i had the most soughtafter endorsement for the mayor of atlanta, a black woman whos a great leader, endorse me. Ive had numerous members of the black caucus endorse me. Are you worried with the poll slippage with africanamericans after the debate . No, no, these folks just came. Im making the point to you, i dont see it. People know who i am. I dont believe theres anybody out there that believes i have anything other than a keen and consistent interest in making sure every child these are all our children. Heres the question. Did you rewatch the debate . No, i didnt. Why not . Well, i didnt have an opportunity to rewatch it. And besides, my measure is how people react outside, getting on a train, getting on a plane, walking through an airport, walking in a parade, just going to the grocery store. I got no sense, i really mean it, no sense. Heres the tough question for democrats. They need a warrior, okay, because not to agrandize, not to lionize, but this president knows how to fight in the ring one on one. Kamala harris is friendly fire. Cory booker is friendly fire. How can democrats have confidence that you can take on the biggest and the baddest when youre having trouble sparring in party . I dont think im having trouble sparring. Its how you want to spar. Look, im the guy at the time, everybody talks about things that change. I took on samesex marriage. I took on a whole range of issues. I took on arms control. I took on dealing with russia with the arms control agreement. I took on putin in terms of iraq i mean, excuse me, in terms of what was going on in ukraine. Ive taken on these leaders around the world. Im the guy thats gone in and met them. Ive taken on all these leaders. I mean this is ironic. Ive never been accused of being not being able to spar. Ive been accused of being too aggressive. But the game has changed. And you think that whats happening with harris is anything compared to what would happen with you and this president . No, but Everybody Knows who this guy is, come on, man. Come on. How do you beat him . I beat him by point who i am and who he is and what im for and what hes against. This guy is a divider in chief. This guy is acting with racist policies. This guy is moving to foment hate. Nothing about him worries you . Sure it worries me in the sense im looking forward to this, man. You walk behind me in a debate, come here, man. You know me too well. The idea that id be intimidated by donald trump . Hes the bully that i knew my whole life. Hes the bully that ive always stood up to. Hes the bully that used to make fun when i was a kid and stutter and i smacked him in the mouth. Look, this is not but i think the American People wanting a president who has some dignity, who has a value set, who is actually trying to restore the soul of this country so when they turn on the television, they look up and their kids say i want to be like that guy or woman. There are domestic agenda items i want to tick through. Sure. But you have made a big point of saying the threat here with the Current Administration is abroad. Both. What exactly bothers you abroad . What bothers me abroad is, look, the idea that we can go it alone with no alliances for the next 20 or 30 years is a disaster. How are we going to stay with stateless terrorism without doing what ive been able to do with the president , put together coalitions of 50, 60 nations to take it on . I come out of a generation where we were trying to be the policemen of the world. We cant go in every place. We need allies. He is absolutely dissing them. He is embracing kim jongun who is a thug. Hes embracing putin who is a dictator, and hes stiffarming our friends. Hes threatening nato, to pull out of nato. Come on. He said hes gotten nato to give more money to their defense because of his tactics. Oh, come on, man. And by the way, the idea that nato let me put it this way. If he wins reelection, i promise you there will be no nato in four years or five years. You think there will be no more nato if hes reelected. I went to the conference we have. The first speech stood up, the chancellor, the former chancellor of germany stands up and she says we have to go it alone. We cant count on the United States. Why did we set up nato, chris . So no one nation could abuse the power in the region in europe that would suck us in in a way they did in world war i and world war ii. Its being crushed. Look at whats happening with putin. While putin is trying to undo our elections, he is undoing elections in europe. Look whats happened in hungary, look whats happened in poland. Look whats happening. You think that would happen on my watch or baracks watch . You cant answer that but i promise you it wouldnt have and it didnt. So with north korea, the idea of reaching out, president obama, Vice President biden wanted to do more than that. The republicans used to whack you on the head, you cant be nice to people that are enemies. Hasnt this president done what you wanted to do by reaching out to kim. He gave kim legitimacy. He ended our relationship as a practical matter with south korea and japan as a united front and left china on the hook. He put us in a position where he said by the way, i love the man. He hasnt done a thing, kim jongun. What have we done . Weve suspended exercises. Look, i come out of the arms control era. Guess what, theres two ways you do this. You work or your defend. You say hey, man, dont screw with us. You move, this is whats going to happen. This is going happen. But in the meantime what you do is you deal with your allies and also those who arent with you. Do you think china wants any part of north korea becoming a Nuclear Power . So what do you do differently with north korea and china . With regard to north korea with china, i make it clear that were going to move our defenses up, as we did before, and were going to make sure that we have the capacity to deal with it near term. Im going to let south korea and japan know were there for them. We are their nuclear umbrella. Were there for them. China, if you dont want us in your throat here, if you dont want us in your face, do something. Do you stop the trade battle with china . Do you go back to tpp . By the way, the idea that this trade battle makes any sense, is benefitting anybody, is absolutely ludicrous. Just ask the farmers here or around the world i mean around the United States and the manufacturers. Its killing us. What we should do is we deal with china i had a conversation with xi before i xi jinping before we left. And he said, well, you know, remember they set up their nofly zone. I said were not going to Pay Attention to it. He said what do you want me to do, just withdraw it . I said no, but just understand were going to fly through. Well fly a b52 through it. We are a pacific power. Were not going anywhere. Understand. Thats the reason why you have security because weve allowed stability in the region. They get it. But what theyre doing now is were not dealing with chinas problem for us. Chinas problem is theyre stealing intellectual secrets. Deal the same way. You say ive got to invest here in the United States and you want to know able to invest here and you say we want to invest in china but youve got to have a 51 owner . No deal, man. Deal for deal. This administration is fighting the same fight, isnt it . No, theyre fighting trade. Trump thinks its about trade deficits and trade surpluses. Its not about that. While hes tweeting, china is going to own the 5g market. In fact theyre spending billions in artificial intelligence. What are we doing . Theyre doing a whole lot of things that make no sense for us to stand still. What would you do differently with north korea, slam the door on them again . Yeah, id make it real clear. You want to talk, you want sanctions lifted, show me something ahead of time. Show me. They havent tested a missile. They have it all done. Theyre sitting there with missiles that have capacity and Nuclear Capacity right now. Theyre not giving up anything. Covered a lot in that interview. There is still more to come. More from cnns interview with joe biden. Hear what he has to say about congresswoman alexandria ocasiocortez and what he calls the battle of the center left of the party versus the way left. And later, President Trump says he can get a Citizenship Question on the census with an executive order. But can he legally . Particularly now since the census is being printed and the Supreme Court has ruled . This is the couple who wanted to get away who used expedia to book the Vacation Rental that led to the ride which took them to the place where they discovered that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. Flights, hotels, cars, activities, Vacation Rentals. Expedia. Everything you need to go. But allstate actually helps you drive safely. With drivewise. It lets you know when you go too fast. And brake too hard. With feedback to help you drive safer. Giving you the power to actually lower your cost. Unfortunately, it cant do anything about that. Now that you know the truth. Are you in good hands . Here are evenonere reasons to join tmobile. Do you like Stranger Things . Sure you do. Thats why netflix is on us. Two unlimited data. Use as much as you want, when you want. Three no surprises on your bill. Taxes and fees included. Still think you have a better deal . Bring in your discount, and well match it. Thats right. Tmobile will match your discount. Welcome back. Im jim sciutto in for anderson tonight. Tonight we have excerpts of cnns exclusive interview with joe biden. He and my colleague, chris cuomo, spent time talking in iowa thursday about President Trump and the immigration debate, but they also discussed the state of the democratic race for president as well as the issues that both define and divide the Democratic Party today. Here now is more from that interview. You versus the rest of the field on the economy. Theyre all going big, 70 tax rates, free college, rearchitecture of the economy, a forgiving debt for college, which happens to be the biggest asset on the american governments balance sheet. You do not believe in those things. I dont believe in the way theyre doing that. For example, i think there should be health care for everyone. I have a plan how to do that thats rational and will cost a hell of a lot less and will work. Too incremental . No. Would you bring back the individual mandate . Pardon me . Would you bring back the individual mandate . Yes. Would it be popular . Yes, it would be compared to whats being offered. Heres the deal, chris. Were in a situation where if you provide an option for anybody who in fact wants to buy into medicare for all, they can buy in. They buy in and they can do it. But if they like their employerbased insurance, which a lot of unions broke their neck to get and a lot of people like, they shouldnt have to give it up. The flip of that is if you dont go my way and go their way, you have to give up all that. Whats going to happen when you have 300 Million People landing on a Health Care Plan . How long thats going to take . Whats it going to do . In the meantime a lot of people are going to be in trouble. In terms of the economy, chris, ive been proposing for a long time look, i know im middle class joe, i know it doesnt mean im sophisticated. The middle class built in country. You didnt have wall street build this country. How did they do it . You gave people a chance. You let them maintain their dignity. How can you have dignity without having health care or access to an education . How can you have dignity unless you live in a neighborhood thats not fouled by whats going on. How do you convince the party that these more advanced ideas, like all in on medicare for all i wouldnt call them advanced. But theyre popular in the party. Well, by the way, watch. Thats what this election is about. Im happy to debate that issue and all those issues with my friends because, guess what, again, look who won the races. Look who won last time out. We had and by the way, i think ocasiocortez is a brilliant, bright woman. But she won a primary. In the general election fights, who won . Mainstream democrats who were very progressive on social issues and very strong on education, health care. Look, my north star is the middle class. When the middle class does well, everybody does well. How do you better for them economically if not with these 70 tax rates . Three things. One, i do raise the tax rate to 39. 5 . I do in fact eliminate the ability for them to write off capital gains. I would raise billions of dollars, raise the Corporate Tax rate from 20 to 28 . It was 36, to 28 . Trump will say but thats what brought the economy up to where it is is these tax cuts. Ask these people who work in this restaurant how that economy came up for them. Ask them how good they feel about it. Ask them how the stock market has helped them. Ask them how driving us 2 trillion more in debt has helped them. Do you believe that undocumented people should have health care in this country . I think undocumented people need to have a means so they can be covered when theyre sick. Thats what i think we should be doing by building more clinics not just for undocumented but other people, when theyre ill, when theyre sick. People need this is just common decency. Youre not going its unpopular. I know it is. Well over 50 people polled say undocumented people here should not have health care on our dime. Let me tell you something, in an emergency they should have health care. Everybody should. Anybody in our country. How do you say youre undocumented, im going to let you die, man. What are you going to do . The idea about i hear this stuff about how theyre killing Social Security, et cetera. Those that have jobs, guess what, they have increased the life span of Social Security by close to a dozen years. I mean we got this this is part of what trump is playing on. It works for him this issue, the idea of law and order versus a left that seems like its open borders because it means its lawless. You have people who are running close to you now who are saying decriminalize coming into the country illegally. Do you believe that should be decriminalized . No, i dont. No, i dont. I think people should have to get in line. But if people are coming because theyre actually seeking asylum, they should have a chance to make their case. I would be surging as we did and barack and i did surging folks to the border to make those concrete decisions. The other thing, chris, is why are they coming . The reason the vast majority of these people are coming from guatemala, honduras and el salvador, theyre in trouble. Crime rates are high, education is terrible. On guatemala you cant turn on a light switch on half of the mountain. What do we do . I put together a 740 Million Program with republicans at the very end saying well make a deal with you. You do the following things to make your country better so they dont leave and we will help you do that. Just like we did in colombia. What did we do . We went down and said okay. I was one of the architects in colombia. I said heres the deal. If you have all these crooked cops, these federal police, were sending our fbi down. You let us put them through lie detector tests. Let us tell you who you should fire and tell you the kind of people they should hire. They did and began to change. We can do so much if were committed. What do you say to people that say the new ideas, i see warren, sanders, harris, you poll lower than them on ideas for the future. What do you say to them . I say take a look at my ideas. Take a look at my ideas. I havent seen those polls. I havent seen where people said what ive seen around the country is the vast majority of democrats are where i am on the issues. Weve got to be aggressive. And theyre big ideas. The big idea on education, on health care, on dealing with the environment. I mean its i love how all of a sudden i wish i had been labeled as moderate when i was running in delaware back in the days when it was 80 of your party says its center left isn. No, i am center left. Farther left is getting amplified. It is. Center left, thats where i am. Where its not is way left. Now look, but thats what we can find out. Thats what this debate is about. Do you think you need, if you win the nomination, to have a female vp . I think it would be great to have a female vp. If i dont win, it would be great to have a female president. But the question is whose issues are best prepared in their wheelhouse . They have demonstrated they know how to deal with them . Would you consider not having a woman as vp . Look, heres the first thing about being a vp. Ive learned. And that is that in todays environment, theres so much a president has on his or her plate, they need someone they completely trust, that theyre simpatico with, they have the same approach, political approach, and you can delegate significant authority. The president when he delegated authority to me from the moon shot to ukraine, he gave me the authority to make decisions because he knew i knew where he was. He knew that i knew something about it and he knew we were simpatico so thats what im looking for. Do you think a democrat ticket can win without a woman in one of the two slots . The answer is yes, but i dont think i think it helps having a woman on the ticket. And theres a lot of really qualified women out there. Is Kamala Harris, assuming she doesnt win outright, is she still somebody you would consider as a running mate . Look, one of the things im not going to get into, because it got used before, is when i was asked i dont even have the nomination and im presuming who i might pick as a Vice President. Thats easily flipped on me and saying biden is being arrogant. Biden thinks ill have him as my Vice President. So im not going to comment on any individual. A woman came up to me, i guess it was, i dont know, a month ago. I guess i was in new hampshire. Said all right, im almost done. Why shouldnt i vote for a woman . I said you should. If you think that person is most qualified at the moment right now to deal with our problems, vote. Im not suggesting you shouldnt vote for women. Look, i have spent my career from writing the violence against women act before that to say my daughters and granddaughters can do anything, and i mean anything. Anything that i man can do. Anything. And so i dont have a doubt in my mind. If i started naming some of the people around the country, women who are not running for appellate as well who are fully qualified to be Vice President , again it would be again, youre awful presumptuous. So theres a lot of really qualified women out there. Last question. In terms of what weve seen from joe biden, i remember your hey, jill. Last question. Last question, i promise. Okay. Well be there in a second. Last question, i promise. The last time i talked to him about politically with you, beau, beau biden said to me nobody fights like my father. What does that mean to you to fight harder than anybody else . I think it means two things. One, to fight without being personal. To fight and convince the role of a president is to persuade. Persuade. Not just go out and fight. If they want someone to clench fists bare knuckle fist closed hand, closed heart, they got one of those guys right now. Thats not me. I have been pretty darn good at bringing people together. The whole idea of america is that when were together, theres not a damn thing we cant do. Look, the most incredible response i always get for the last three years is i talk about how optimistic am i about the future. People know it. They feel it. They know it. They understand it. And we cant stay in this state. What are we going to do . What are we going to do if we cant get along better, and part of it is persuasion. And people looking at you say i know what he means, hell stay with what he says and hell do what he says hes going to do. And i think thats part of leading. Well soon find out. Thank you for the time. Quite a conversation. Toward the end of that interview you may have heard two members of the biden team pushing to ending the interview. One of those members was wife, jill biden. She and her husband sat with chris for part of the interview and you could see that on monday night on cuomo primetime where we will hear her reaction to Kamala Harris attack on her husband. Straight ahead here on 360 a lot to deconstruct from chris time with the former Vice President and democratic frontrunner. When we return, our Political Team weighs in on what he had to say. Keep in mind, biden has seldom granted oneonone interviews thus far in his campaign. Lots to talk about, coming up. Most people think a button is just a button. That a speaker is just a speaker. Or that the journey cant be the destination. Most people havent driven a lincoln. Discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. Right now, get 0 apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles plus no payments for up to 90 days. Only at your lincoln dealer. Too many peopleents a restless nights sleep. Theres a better choice. Aleve pm. The only one to combine a safe sleep aid and the 12hour painrelieving strength of aleve. That dares to last into the morning. So you feel refreshed. Aleve pm. Theres a better choice. 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Call, visit or click today. Joe bidens interview with chris cuomo is ripping across political establishment tonight. Here with me for some perspective, van jones, a cnn political commentator. David gurgen, a cnn Senior Analyst as well as columnist and Kirsten Powers also a cnn political commentator. Thanks to all of you interrupting your holiday weekend. So after the debate last week, van, you said that Vice President biden had a breakdown, your word, that he had the most to lose and he lost it. Do you think in this interview that he regained some of that . Look, i think hes clawing his way back. Heres the thing. He does better in a oneonone opportunity where he can really explain himself. Part of the challenge that hes got, and i talked to him a couple weeks ago and said, listen, you are so earnest. Would you please be less earnest . Youve got to get yourself into a position where you can explain in short, simple sound bites what you want to do and how youre going to get it done. I think the challenge you have with him is hes been in public life so long, hes done so much, hes trying to tell you so many things about what hes done and so many things about what he wants to do, so many positive things can get lost in his thoughts. He does better in that oneonone opportunity than giving speeches. You put up against ten other people, nine other people, its hard for him to penetrate the way he did in this interview. David gurgen, does that biden style, is it fundamentally not suited to todays style of campaigning . Im not so sure. It may well be van is right about going oneonone hes more comfortable. I also felt that when he talks about policy and where he wants to go, starting to draw more distinctions between his own views about, say, medicare for all or high tax rates and it turns out he really is closer to the center than he is to the far left. I think that i think thats what came across in this interview, especially the last half that we watched on policy. I thought he was much more effective. I think thats where the votes are, a lot of the kind of things hes talking about. Kirsten, im curious what you think about that. For instance on tax rate, he talks about raising the top tax rate to 39. 5 . Not 70 . Most americans dont support that or on health care, even among democrats, though many say they support medicare for all, when theyre told no more employerfunded Health Care Plans, biden mentioned particularly union folks fought hard for that. Is he closer to the majority of democratic voters than a lot of the progressives in this campaign . I think its hard to say necessarily. Is he closer than maybe Bernie Sanders is . Yeah, probably. Is he closer than where cory booker or Kamala Harris are . I dont think so. I dont think that hes that wildly different from where they are. And so i think that Bernie Sanders in particular has staked out a position where he wants to have extremely high tax rates on the very wealthy, which actually most americans do support. So i think people understand that its not on the middle class, its just on wealthy people, you do get more support there. But biden is trying to position himself as the sort of mainstream guy who is just like everybody else and that he is in touch with sort of has his finger on the pulse of the Democratic Party and i think that remains to be seen. Van, does he . Does he more properly have his finger on the pulse of the broader democratic voting base here than, say because he goes right after aoc, for instance, in this interview and says shes fantastically well spoken, shes inspiring, et cetera, but that her positions are further to the left than most democrats. Is he right . He may well be right. The thing about him, and i think what did come through in the interview, was this is a guy, hes a beloved figure in the party and in the country for a reason. He cares about real people. Whats so endearing about him is he doesnt really want to fight the democrats. Hes so reluctant to even raise a word of criticism, he just wants to fight donald trump. So hes seens athe older guy but hes actually about a year ahead of himself in terms of where we are in this process. He doesnt want to fight any of those people. But to your question, i do think that we cannot tell yet how much of this enthusiasm for these more bold proposals is just coming from Party Activists and from the twittersphere versus if you really have a big shift to the left among actual voting democrats. Hes making a bet that actual voting democrats are more reasonable and soberminded than the phenomenon that some of the other candidates are chasing. Its so amazing to watch this guy. Dude, youve got to beat these people up. Youve got to put them over your knee, spank them and throw them out the door to get the nomination. He doesnt want to do it. Hes got to make a tshirt or bumper sticker. Come on, man. Thats sort of his position. A quick thought, david, before we go to break . Yeah. I think hes not necessarily closer to the progressives and the activists as van said but hes much closer to where the voters in the general election are, and thats what is serving him well. Fair enough. Stand by, everyone. Well take a short break. More on joe biden and the 2020 race. Also the latest on the president s ongoing battle over the Citizenship Question in the upcoming census. He says he hasnt given up. Stand up to chronic migraine with botox®. What if you had fewer headaches and migraines a month . Botox® prevents headaches and migraines before they even start. Botox® is for adults with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. 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We know their rates are good, we know that theyre always going to take care of us. It was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. It was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say oh we cant beat usaa were the webber family. Were the tenneys were the hayles, and were usaa members for life. Get your usaa Auto Insurance quote today. Back now with our Political Team and their take on chris cuomos interview with the former Vice President and democratic frontrunner, joe biden. Back with the panel now. Kirsten, i do want to start with you because talking about that point, is joe biden closer to the broader Democratic Base than the other, particularly more progressive candidates. Your thoughts on that. The thing that we have to remember is pretty much every poll has shown and any of us know anecdotally is the number one issue is can you beat donald trump. So the focus on joe biden is saying im more in touch with you, i believe the things that you believe. What he really has to be showing is i can beat donald trump. Thats the most important thing. So maybe to a certain extent hes trying to say more people believe what i believe and so theyre going to vote for me. And thats part of his electability argument. But i think the biggest thing is are you going to be able to go toe to toe with trump and deal with anybody who is different than anybody else youve been up against. There was another president ial candidate in recent memory who rewrote the book on the way he did interviews. He called into Television Shows repeatedly and did his own rallies all the time, which were broadcast live. He did pretty well in 2016. Can joe biden say, yeah, ill go to the debates. Ill just do sitdown interviews. No, no, no, hes got to get in the ring with trump. Hes got to go mano a mano in the ring. I do think one element of who can beat donald trump is, do the voters want the person and what comes with him. There is a lot of anxiety in this country about people other than joe biden winning the democratic nomination. Thats not the person they think can beat donald trump if theyre for a lot of far leftwing propositions that are extremely expensive and will drive away working people. So you do have to find somebody who not only is tough in the ring but has a set of ideas that are persuasive. Van, joe biden made the case, right, he called he called donald trump a bully. He said i know this bully, ive dealt with bullies before. Im going to push back. You remember his famous line a couple of years ago about take him behind the schoolhouse and punch him in the nose kid of thing. How is he selling that point that im the guy that can go in the ring against trump and beat him . I think that case got dinged up a little bit when Kamala Harris went after him, and he really just wasnt able to answer it on his feet in that moment. I think he was very honest in saying he was prepared for some of that, but he wasnt prepared for the more personal and emotional attack that she launched because, frankly, he knows her pretty well and she knows his family pretty well. I thought that was one of the most telling things. He said, listen, i just didnt expect that. I think when i was watching that i said this guy doesnt look like, at least tonight, that hes ready to go head to head with donald trump or really with anybody. And so i think hes going to have to prove himself again to the American People that he can be that fighter that his son was talking about. He does have a history of fighting, but i think he lost some of that electability argument by performing so poorly against Kamala Harris. Crucial to the 2020 election is this question of the future elections, the Citizenship Question in the 2020 census. President trump today seemed that this was all over. He said, well, i might still go after it. Have a listen, i want to get your reaction. You need it for many reasons. Number one, you need it for congress. You need it for congress, for districting. You need it for appropriations. Where are the funds going . How many people are there . Are they citizens . Are they not citizens . You need it for many reasons. The president giving an innocent explanation for the addition of that question, although theres a lot of evidence that this was politically motivated because it would lead to an undercount of immigrants and therefore increased representation for gop candidates there. Is this issue not dead for the 2020 census . Do they have a legal path . Can the president fight this . I think hes going to try to fight it. The Supreme Court did say you could come back and give us a different reason for wanting to do this, and so i have to say that im surprised that his own administration didnt know that he would do this, that he would want to take that obviously as far as it could go and see if they could pro veevail on this. He has presented it as we just need to know whos living here. He just said really what its about which we all know. Its really about redistricting. Its really about trying to drive down numbers of people in certain communities so it will benefit republicans. And the chief justice in his decision was skeptical of the arguments of the government. Van jones, david gergen, Kirsten Powers, i hope you have a happy july 4th weekend. Coming up next, a 15yearold storming wimbledon. Coco gauff had another marketwatch today. Can she keep her winning streak alive . Its coming up. [alarm beeping] {tires screeching} {truck honking} avo life doesnt give you many second chances. 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That does it for this hour, the cnn special report state of hate starts right now. Announcer the following is a cnn special report. America is at war with itself. Young people openly racist, walking the streets of the united state