Idea who these women are. Theyre lying. Mrs. Trump said he will push back ten times as hard. No matter if youre a man or a woman, theyre equal. Is someone advising him to be silent . I dont think its silent when the president has addressed this. Weve addressed it extensively. Theres nothing else to add. Just because you guys continue to ask the same question over and over and over again doesnt mean that we have to keep coming up with new things to say. Weve addressed it. Weve addressed it extensively, and theres nothing new to add to this conversation. Again, the breaking news tonight, the president will not be adding to the conversation anytime soon because our source says he doesnt believe its hurting his poll numbers. I spoke earlier tonight about his reticence about this, among other things with republican congressman charlie dent. Congressman dent, are you surprised at all that the president still hasnt commented about Stormy Daniels, and hes certainly not shy about, you know, commenting on the special counsels investigation, which potentially holds far more serious consequences for him. Well, actually i think the president has played this better by i thought silence is probably not a bad strategy. It seems to me that, you know, the less he says about this, the better. So i thought thats the right way to handle it. I think he should frankly use this strategy more often on more issues, particularly with respect to you mentioned director mueller. He should be silent. So i think thats the right approach. According to the Washington Post, the president has privately been telling people he believes daniels the story is a hoax. Im wondering, do you believe its a hokax . Do you believe her allegations . Well, when people elected donald trump, i think they realized they were not electing a choir boy. So, you know, i think shes credible. I think shes credible. I thought Karen Mcdougal was credible. But, again, im not so sure that the American Public is completely surprised, you know, by these events after what we went through during the campaign and the access hollywood tapes. You raise an interesting point because weve heard from a lot of evangelicals or other Trump Supporters who say, look, were not electing a pastor in chief, you know. Were electing a commander in chief, a president. Im wondering what you make of that argument. Do you see it as the job of the president to be a moral leader for the country . Well, i happen to think its important for the president to set a good example, and i do. I think thats very important. I think the American People need to be able to trust what the president says. I do get concerned, for example, on friday when the president talks about vetoing an omnibus spending bill that he helped negotiate. I mean those types of things do concern me, or i do get concerned when he makes statements that are false in the event, ill say the canadian surplus issue when in fact the United States runs a surplus with canada. Hell say things that are factually not accurate, and i think thats a problem. I do. And i dont know how many in the evangelical community can reconcile, you know, some of their positions at this moment. They seem to be more concerned about someone who embraces their policies on a public level as opposed to maybe, you know, living by a personal code that they would find objectionable. It does seem like if the shoe were on the other foot, if, say, president obama had been facing allegations like this, i wonder if, you know, the evangelical community would have been responding in the same way or other republicans would have been responding in the same way. Oh, no, theyd be waving a bloody shirt. It would be a human rights violation. It would have been the shoe on the other foot. Theres no question about it. You know, had this been a democratic president who had been, you know, conciliatory toward the russians, for example. Im sure as republicans, wed be, you know, screaming, you know, morning to night about such a situation. Bill clinton, lets face it, i wasnt in congress back then, but a lot of folks were pretty darn alarmed and outraged and had a strong voice about the character, saying character counts. And now that the shoe is on the other foot, a lot of those same folks are pretty damn silent. The president s behavior, whether its past behavior or current behavior, more generally could impact the Midterm Elections or in what way do you think it could impact the Midterm Elections . Oh, yes, absolutely. This Midterm Election in my view will be a referendum on the president of the United States and his conduct in office. Thats what typically Midterm Elections are about, the party in power and specifically the president and his party. I think that will be the case this election, and all the other issues will be secondary or terty ari to the president. This will be a straight up referendum on the president and his conduct. So i think these issues will have an impact. Congressman dent, appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you, anderson. Lets bring in the panel. Hopefully they are not remaining silent. Ryan lizza, kirsten powers, rob astorino, Alice Stewart and frank bruni. Frank, you wrote about this, about President Trumps silence. You said it was, quote, a glaring and fascinating omission. What do you think is behind it . You know, i think weve also assumed the people hes tweeting the most about are the one whos are rattling him the most. I think it may be the case when hes not saying anything about someone, thats when hes really rattled. I think there are many possible explanations but one of the ones i wonder about is when you have someone like Stormy Daniels coming out. Shes striking what she could or couldnt say is striking one of the pillars of the president s vanity. He has spent many years of building the persona of the irresistible ladys man. He used to brag about it on howard stern. We had a debate where he assured us everything below the belt was just fine. He knows that someone like Stormy Daniels is going to talk about various facets of their actual encounter. She found it pathetic she was pointing to himself on a magazine cover and said does this work with most women. She talks about spanking. She said she didnt find him attractive, didnt want to have sex with him. I think this stuff bothers him. I think this was the kind of thing he knew she might say and i think hes running away from this because its part of his identity that freaks him out. The other thing you wrote recently or in that piece was about traditional president ial etiquette is gone, and traditional president ial ethics are gone, which unfortunately i tend to agree with you because we all knew this about donald trump. We all knew this was part of his character. We all knew that he was a ladies man and philanderer. But a lot of people elected him anyway. And as charlie dent said, people stood behind him. Republicans stood behind him because of his policies. I think at this point we have to just accept the fact that we knew we had a flawed candidate in the republican party. I worked really, really hard for someone who had ethics and integrity to be the republican nominee, and he didnt make it. We ended up with donald trump. I think at this stage of the game, we have to understand this is who we have. He is tremendously flawed, but at the end of the day, he is our president. And clearly the reason hes being quiet here is because he knows hes wrong here. He knows that these women despite their careers and playboy playmate and porn stars, he knows that theyre right, and theres nothing he can say about it. And attribute thats why we have rob, why do you think hes being silent . I think its the right kind of thing to do because once he opens his mouth on this, it will be never ending. It amplifies the story. It does. It will give credence to what she has said whether its right or wrong. In the interview i was one of the 22 million who watch the it because of curiosity. I think thats what a lot of people wanted to see in this and what she could possibly say. I learned two things. One, spanking, which is completely salacious. And the second about a threat, which was not salacious. It was uncorroborated. So i didnt really learn anything new from this. This is old news. It has nothing to do with what hes done in the white house, which is a very big distinction. People are making an issue about the nondisclosure. Just go back to when that was signed. He was well down in the polls. So it wasnt like they were doing this to potentially hold the lead and win the white house. Are you saying it was just a coence dense that she was asked and signed a nondisclosure agreement 11 days before the election . Thats what Michael Cohen is saying. I think what is the case, its less political because everyone predicted he was going to lose at that point. Nobody had him winning the election 11 days before. But more an embarrassment to he and his family. Isnt there just a simple legal explanation . Not that donald trump usually takes the advice of his lawyers, and we know with the mueller investigation, hes constantly tweeting against their advice. But it does seem like theres a simple legal explanation for why he hasnt spoken about this. The whole argument of stormys lawyer is that cohen broke the nondisclosure agreement so its null and void. Thats one argument theyre making. And otherwise that trump didnt sign it. So trump is out there talking, giving oxygen to this that hurts his case. Right. The other thing is they think they have a strong case on the merits of the nondisclosure agreement. They want to get this into court, back into arbitration behind closed doors. Out of court and into arbitration. Exactly and make it go away. I think this is an example of trump listening to his lawyers and pursuing the smart legal strategy which is to shut up. I think thats what so interesting about it, kirsten, is legally its the smart thing to do, to remain silent. But there have been so many times when the p has just ignored that advice. Hes basically under investigation now because he ignored advice that he was given about how to deal with the fbi, right . How to deal with the counsel. So i think he ignores people even when it can put him into serious legal jeopardy. So i dont really i dont know if that makes sense to me. I think its more what franks saying frankly. Also anyone whos following Stormy Daniels on twitter, i wouldnt get in a fight with her, you know. I mean shes hes met his match for sure if he tries to get into it with her. And i think it could become very ugly for him very quickly. Lets also remember hes married. He has a wife who is not very happy about this, we can assume. And i think that thats a factor in his thinking. And another part of remaining silent, hopefully hes learned you dont continue to add gas to a fire. And a lot of times he has these stories that arent positive and he tweets and pushes it out there and it further elongates the story and makes a oneday story a longer story. I think hes wise to be silent on this. Hopefully in their mind it pulls it back. But lets take the sex out of it. Lets take what happened out of it. The real problem for him as ryan said is the legal complications here, the fact that they potentially paid people off and potentially threatened people. Thats the bigger concern. The sex in my view is between he and melania. For the American People, its about the lies and the coverup and the potential threats that i think the president needs to be concerned about and americans. There was a time when he was relatively quiet on mueller too until he stopped being quiet, right . He never mentioned mueller by name until just recently. Right. So far i think hes doing the right thing legally and hes doing the right thing for the country. He should be spending his time preparing for his summit with kim jongun. Hes got more important things to be doing. I think its worth noting with donald trump that you simply never know, and it may also be that he doesnt have something he needs to distract from right now. But tomorrow he will have something he really needs to distract from, and well want everyone to Start Talking about Stormy Daniels so they wont talk about the crazy thing hes done tomorrow. So i think we need to be careful about predicting that weve seen some kind of pattern here. Youve raised this idea as well that you cant underestimate just the personal aspect to this. I mean hes got a wife obviously. I dont know what he has said previously to her, if that contradicts what Stormy Daniels is saying. You know, this was allegedly shortly after she gave birth. There could be just a very big personal element to this. Melania trump knew when she married donald trump, i think she knew she wasnt marrying a choir boy just like americans knew they werent electing one. I dont think she was ready to be publicly shamed and to see headlines every day about what he was doing. When she was raising a child who had just been born, i think weve seen a lot of signs of estrangement here. If not making that worse is served by not tweeting about Stormy Daniels and bringing attention to it himself, thats a strong motivation not to do it. When we come back, more on the president s belief that he can give this story the silent treatment and why his aides may disagree. Also ahead, ryan lizza talked about the president listening to his lawyers. Just one problem, hes now got fewer lawyers to listen to. High powered attorneys seem to be lining up to stay off the legal team. The president denies this. Well talk about that ahead. Behr marquee presents its got potential. I think itll look really, really good without the stripes. Margo and sam had a vision, brought to life in one coat. Whatever your home may hand you, behr through it, in one coat. Behr marquee, 1 rated interior paint. Guaranteed in 1,000 plus colors. Find it exclusively at the home depot. Directv gives you more for your thing. Your toprated thing. That five stars, two thumbs up, 12outof10, would recommend thing. Because if you only want the best thing, you get the 1 thing. Directv is rated 1 in Customer Satisfaction over cable. 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Most pills dont finish the job because they dont relieve nasal congestion. Flonase allergy relief is different. Flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. And 6 is greater than 1. Start your day with flonase for more complete allergy relief. Flonase. This changes everything. Were talking tonight about the conspicuous lack of talk from a man who rarely ever holds back. President trumps silence about Stormy Daniels, listen. The president watches 60 minutes. If hes watching tonight, what would you say to him . He knows im telling the truth. According to the Washington Post, the president did watch. Back now with the panel. So senior white house officials according to the Washington Post believe Stormy Daniels story, at least again according to the post. Does it Say Something that the president s own staff believes this . I think they say they believe it. That doesnt necessarily mean they believe it. Look, many polls show that six in ten americans believe these women and they dont believe donald trump. But the reality is recent poll numbers for the president s Approval Ratings are up. Right. So why would he talk about it . Why would he change the i dont agree with their comms strategy on, this but why would they change course given the fact that people know this is true, and its not affecting how they view him and his Approval Ratings as president. So i believe theyre going to continue the status quo, deny, deny, deny. The narrative of donald trump as philanderer and womanizer is much more benign than the narrative of donald trump as commiter of Sexual Harassment, right . And actually which was the more dominant narrative until Stormy Daniels kind of emerged on the scene. So in a certain kind of way, i actually think this actually helps in that it kind of buries that other story, which was a massive story during the campaign. It still should be a massive story, not about consensual things he did, but about nonconsensual things hes accused of doing. I said this when we talked about it before. Maybe as i woman i saw this as a little differently. I found it very different than the Karen Mcdougal interview in the sense i thing Karen Mcdougal was a little older. She was at least in her mid30s when it happened whereas Stormy Daniels was 27 years old and he was 60 years old, and it was clear what she said to you that she didnt want to have sex with him, and she felt sort of pressured to do it, and i think he knew that. I think he cups oomes off at particularly sleazy. In the Karen Mcdougal scene, she was saying he was wonderful and kind. I think with Stormy Daniels, its a 60yearold man and a 27yearold woman who is the same age as his daughter and shes talking about his daughter and she feels like i have to have sex with this guy. To your point, hes almost turning it into almost barter. Hes dangling an appearance on the apprentice, so it comes to feel like paid sex. First of all, if she decided to do it to get on the apprentice, that was her decision if thats the way she want the to go. She said to her credit it was consensual. She never felt pressured to do it. She felt this was an adult she wanted to make for whatever reason. Getting into the humanistic side of this, barron is 12 years old. He goes to school and hes got to hear all this stuff about his dad. I think as a father, the president doesnt want to have to talk about this. But also as a country, except for the left in lpolitics and te media really, everywhere i go when i Start Talking to people at my kids games, nobody is talking about this obsessively. We watched it because we were curious, but this is not consuming america like its consuming, you know, the seven of us tonight. Maybe he should sl thought about that before he actually went ahead and cheated on his wife before just a crazy thought, you know. I dont disagree with you on that, but it was done, and it was done a long time ago. Its not affecting him as president , per se. He didnt do it in the white house. If more women come out and, you know, say, oh, you know, i signed an nda or i signed a deal with the National Enquirer to stay silent, if theres a steady drip of this or more information comes out about an alleged threat, do you think ma matttha matters or is he teflon on all these issues because it was baked in because of the allegations made during the campaign . One of the things that those in the evangelical community have said is that they forgive him for past transgressions as long as it was before he ran for office and before he was president. But in my view, the constant drip, drip, drip, and like i said, take the sex out of it. This is about lies and coverup and silencing women who are put in uncomfortable situations of their own choice or not of their own choice. But in my view, people are going to start carrying when they realize there is a long history of lies and coverups. Charlie dent says hes concerned about the Midterm Election. I dont think so. Honestly, i dont think its top of the mind on most people. If the economy is doing well, thats going to play more of a role. If the economy tanks, thats going to i agree the economy is going to have a bigger role. For starters, this notice of corn sensual versus nonconsensual, all of this boils down tot objectification of women and youve seen in alabama and pennsylvania and virginia, youve seen women coming out to vote. I think if this continues going into the midterms, this is going to be a turnout factor. These women are going to come out to vote in greater numbers and theyre not going to be voting for donald trump. I think in the sense that it wont matter, i dont think those evangelical voters are going to move. Barring him becoming prochoice and putting a liberal on the supreme court, i dont think those voters are moving. I dont care if he had an affair right now honestly. I think frank is right that the women who it will bother are more of these suburban women who are already pretty agitated, and it could just make them a little more enthusiastic. And to the consent issue, this is, again, what me too is kind of about. This isnt actually necessarily consensual the way that youre saying that it is. Monica lewinsky forever said completely consensual. I have no regrets. Guess what, now shes reevaluating it in the midst of me too and saying actually, now that i look back on it and i was a 23yearold and he was the president of the United States, thats not actually true consent. I think he was acting like a predator personally. Does her view matter . Shes told anderson it was completely consensual, she was not victimized. She doesnt want to associate herself with people who were truly assaulted. She says that very clearly. Then as she described her thought process in the moment right. I talked to a lot of women who said, wait a minute, maybe she doesnt recognize it as such, but who are saying, oh, i deserved this. I put myself in a bad situation. Bad things are going to happen. I deserve this. I got to do this. One of the things about these situations and i think it also applies to Sexual Harassment, it applies to a wide range of issues is women dont want to think of themselves as victims. They dont report Sexual Harassment because they dont want to feel like they think im empowered. Im not the kind of woman who gets sexually harassed. So then they dont report it. Its the same thing. I understand she doesnt want to think of herself as a victim. But im telling you shes 27 years old, and hes 60 years old. Hes a billionaire. Shes an adult film actress. I think he took advantage of it. When we continue, more lawyers turn down the chance to work for President Trumps legal team as the russia investigation continues. Allergies with sinus congestion and pressure . You wont find relief here. Go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritind. While the leading allergy spray relieves 6 symptoms. Claritind relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. Claritind relieves more. Get ready for the wild life with one a day mens. A complete multivitamin with key nutrients, plus b vitamins for heart health. Your one a day is showing. Internet providers promise Business Owners a lot. Lets see who delivers more. Comcast business offers fast gigspeeds across our network. At t doesnt. We offer more complete reliability with up to 8 hours of 4g Wireless Network backup. At t, no way. We offer 35 voice features and solutions that grow with your business. At t, not so much. We give you 75 mbps for 59. 95. Thats more speed than at ts comparable bundle, for less. Call today. With the news that two more attorneys both from the well known chicago firm winston and stron are declining to work for President Trumps legal team, you got to wonder whos left out there. The answer seems to be two right now, white House Counsel ty cobb and outside attorney jay sekulow. Over the weekend the president tweeted its much ado about nothing. Quote, many lawyers and top law firms want to represent me in the russia case. Dont believe the fake news narrative that its hard to find a lawyer that wants to take this on. Fame and fortune will never be turned down by a lawyer though some are conflicted. Problem is that a new lawyer or law firm will take months to get up to speed if for no other reason they can bill more, which is unfair to our great country, and im very happy with my existing team. Besides there was no collusion with russia except by crooked hillary and the dems. Theres so many parenthetical phrases in that. It was a big runon sentence. What does it say that he appears to be having trouble finding ysome of the big firs are saying we have a conflict because people in our firm are representing other people in the russia investigation. This job is becoming a little like the drummer in spinal tap. People disappear under strange circumstances. I always love a spinal tap reference. If you havent seen t you should by the way. Dating myself now. They dont want to work for him because he is doesnt listen to them, right . Or they are in liberal oriented firms that are embarrassed to take on the president as a client. There are a ton of attorneys in washington, d. C. And republican attorneys, you would think i mean just in terms of career visibility, you would think somebody would want to take this on. I talked with several attorneys over the past few days about this. Some that i know are very liberal. Some i know are very conservative, and they also basically ran down the same laundry list of why they wouldnt take the job. Its that the president is unpredictable. He is not transparent. He is not truthful. He is someone that would be a difficult client. He doesnt listen to advice. Hes someone that clearly would always always tries to act as though he knows more than everyone else, and sometimes he doesnt pay. And thats why i think a lot of times what they told me the most skilled, expert lawyers wouldnt take that for all of those reasons, but more than anything, he wont take their advice. And any man that is his own lawyer has a fool for a client. Thats what a lot of the lawyers are afraid of. They come on. He doesnt listen to them, and they look foolish. Asha, youre teaching law at yale. You say that shes got that the president has got to get, i mean, a really star, brilliant attorney. Yeah, this isnt a Convenience Store robbery for my cousin vinny. There are all kinds of different issues here. Theres obstruction. Theyre Campaign Finance issues. Theres, you know, potential financial crimes and constitutional issues that he can if he has a good lawyer, can actually put them out there. And theres a ton of attorneys on the opposite side. One attorney who i know who is familiar with some of those folks describe them as like a team of ninjas. Like they are in their respective fields, they are top of their fields. Exactly. They are on top of all of the doctrinal aspects of constitutional law and in the weeds prosecutorial experience. So he has a formidable legal team and he has all the money in the world to get the best legal representation, and its amazing that he cant. Hes kind of like that character from peanuts, pig pen, you know . Hes got this legal hot mess cloud that kind of follows him, and i think when youre a lawyer looking at it, youre like, this guy fires people. Theres porn stars with secret contracts. Theres random russians that pop up. I mean how are you going to come up with a theory of the case and how can you trust that your own client is going to be honest with you because your own credibility is on the line if you represent yourself for the record, pig pen was one of my favorite characters. Hes a great character. Does it concern you that right now its jay sekulow and then ty cobb, who is i talked to one of the attorneys today who was mentioned as one who declined, and it wasnt true. He has a very big law firm, who their firm is conflicted out. So thats the reason why they cant do it. And whether its perceived or real conflicts, these big firms wall it off and say no. Whether its gibson dunn, sullivan cromwell, these are huge firms. I do think youll have an attorney or several attorneys. Youll also have, you know, sometimes an attorney is reluctant to go part of a team when theyre not the lead attorney or that the advice that this he would give or the strategy they would take is not where its going to go. So they back off because he is a difficult client, though. Well, yeah, but al capone had an attorney. John gotti had an attorney. How is it that the president of the United States cant find an attorney . I mean none of these explanations really make sense. This is a dream job for most washington attorneys. You know, you figure out the conflicts. You leave the firm. You get rid of the client. Its the president of the United States. Theres something about donald trump that is highly, highly unusual in this situation. Look, donald trump has had trouble finding people for Foreign Policy jobs in his administration too because most of the people know that you come out of your experience with donald trump looking a lot worse than you did. Look at rex tillerson, right . But the difference is if you go to work in the state department, at least youre going to get paid, right . If youre the lawyer for donald trump, you get humiliated, right . And you may not get paid. So i think thats a trouble whammy. Attorneys represent murderers, right . You have an excuse as a lawyer that you dont have if youre in the state department or according to Michael Cohen, has actually paid to represent donald trump. Thats going to be a daunting president for people. You lose money on the deal. We got to get another quick break in. Coming up next, the border wall, remember that . Whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico maybe not so much right now. Details ahead. Vice president pence told a political audience in north dakota today that the border wall is a certainty. When it comes to building the wall, he said, quote, were going to build it all. For his part, President Trump is now at least thinking for paying for that long promised border wall by getting the money from the pentagon, not from mexico. In a tweet over the weekend, the president wrote, quote, because of the 716 billion gotten to rebuild our military, many jobs are created and our military is again rich. Building a great border wall with drugs, poison, and enemy combatants pouring into our country is all about national fence. Build wall through m. M. Of course means the military. Sarah sanders tackled that at at White House Press briefing. That tweet this weekend, does he mean that he wants the military to pay for the border wall . Can you speak generally to that . Again, im not going to get into the specifics of that, but i can tell you that the wall is continuing to be built currently and were going to keep pushing forward until its fully completed in the way that the president feels is necessary to defend the country. And isnt it true at this point that mexico is not going to pay for that wall . Im not going to go beyond what the president s already said. I think he still has plans to look at potential ways for that to happen. Thats a very long way from the daily rhetoric that then candidate trump used during the election, which became an important part of his campaign playbook, a daily ritual. We are going to build a great border wall, and whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico who . Mexico it will be a great wall. Mexicos going to pay for the wall. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. Mexico will pay for the wall. And mexico is going to pay for the wall, and they understand that. Mexico is going to pay for the wall, believe me, 100 . A trip down memory lane. Back now with our panel. The Washington Post is reporting that part of what may be behind this move is the fact that the president s frustrated that Television Coverage of the congressional spending deals didnt include that talked about the Television Coverage talked about how it didnt include building the border wall, which i guess, if that is true, would be yet another way that television is sort of steering this president at least in some of his tweets. Hes definitely getting criticized by a lot of conservatives for this deal. Look, this was his last chance probably to get funding in his first term for the wall. So i think we all know mexico is not going to pay for the wall, and he had a deal on the table from the democrats. They actually were going to fungd the wall, something they were totally opposed to but they wanted in return to get the daca issue taken care of for the dreamers. And he didnt want to strike a deal. So now hes kind of out of luck because in order i mean the military reportedly is not interested in this idea, and even if they were, he would have to go back to congress to get the money approved, and thats going to be impossible. I mean hes tried to get mexico to pay for this wall. Hes tried to get congress to pay for the wall. And now hes trying to get the military to pay for the wall. The only thing he hasnt tried so far is a gofundme campaign. In each of these cases he had absolutely no understanding about the process by which that would happen, right . He never actually explained how mexico would do that. He had a deal on the table with congress and democrats to make this happen, and i think frankly what happened there is his hardline, more ideological immigration advisers realized that they would rather prevent daca from happening than have that wall because anyone who really knows the immigration issue knows that the wall is not, you know, going to do much. So that was scuttled. And now he doesnt understand how the budgeting process works. You cant go to the pentagon and say, hey, you just got all this money from this bill. He says theyre rich now. Right. Congress actually specifies exactly what the pentagon can use that money for, which is a pretty basic part of the constitution. I keep thinking about all those other republicans who are on the debate stage and during the primaries who were all saying, you know, this is not going to like it was essentially a persuasive argument he was making and it was very tough for them to argue against, and yet they all knew 24 was not going to work out exactly as he was saying. We all knew at all those debates, sitting backstage much waing him say that, we all knew that was not going to happen. As many people realize, mexico will not pay for the wall. But the coverage in my view that has really gotten to him since the omnibus spending came out and no funding for the wall is the hard core conservative pundits on another network that hammered him because they really went to the well for him and went to bat for him because they really believed he was going to get this wall built. And when it didnt happen and they criticized him, that is why he floated out this idea of maybe having the military pay for it and find some other way to fund this. He is really trying to convince his base, and i think rightfully so and i think its good for him to do this, telegraph to them im still trying to fight for this wall because i promised you that. In terms of keeping his base happy, how important is this wall . I think next idea is tax on tacos or something. I think, look, you know, that was a metaphor. Most people understood that mexico wasnt going to pay for the wall. Really . I think a lot of people assumed you think that thousands of people chanting that mexico is going to pay for it. No. I think it was People Like Us were taking it literally. That was the problem. Well, some people may have, but i think what was it a metaphor for . That a wall is going to be built. Thats not a metaphor. A wall is going to be built, mexico is going to pay for t. I dont think mexico was actually going to write a check for the wall. But when youre talking about the Defense Department that is literally what they believed. I hate to do this again, but let me just play the sound again because, again, it just doesnt sound like tens of thousands of people are chanting mexico and they really think department of defense. Lets just play this. We are going to build a great border wall. And whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico who . Mexico it will be a great wall. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. Mexico will pay for the wall. And mexico is going to pay for the wall, and they understand that. Mexico is going to pay for the wall, believe me, 100 . Believe me, 100 . Its very unclear to me. I think with the Defense Department, what an executive is supposed to do is accomplish the goal, right . The appropriation but not spend as much as necessary. I mean if you can accomplish something and save. So i think lets take an Aircraft Carrier, lets say. 40 billion for an Aircraft Carrier. If you can get that Aircraft Carrier for 35 billion, you now have 5 billion left over. At the end of the day, could you sweep up enough money to use that without [ overlapping voices ] thats the legal question. The lie here is that theres actually a National Security reason to any combatants. Lets be clear about this. This is the pernicious part. The people who are coming across the Mexican Border are mostly not mexicans. Theyre people from central american, desperately poor and brutalized in large measure because of american policies that led to extreme violence in countries like honduras, nicaragua, el salvador, who are fleeing for their lives, right . Those are the people who donald trump is calling a threat to the United States, a military threat. He is sort of in order to get it to the military, hes saying enemy combatants w i yoing that hes used that term before. Thats implying that its members of the taliban or al qaeda who are pouring over the border. I dont know what the books at trump org look like but you dont shuffle a little money here and there and move it around. This goes to his lack of understanding of the legal constraints and the constitutional constraints on what he can do. We saw this in the travel ban. Through the whole campaign, were going to do a complete shutdown on muslims. Weve got to take a break. Coming up, sean penn was already a fascinating person, actor, director, activist woe first met in haiti after the earthquake. He has a new title, novelist. Ill speak to him about his debut novel next. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. So why accept it from your allergy pills . Most pills dont finish the job because they dont relieve nasal congestion. Flonase allergy relief is different. 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Ive shoknown sean for a while. We met in the aftermath of haiti. Hes done incredible work on the ground in haiti for years. His latest novel is bob honey just do stuff. I spoke to him on air. Can you explain, its a fascinating book, and i so admire anyone who writes fiction, because its so out of my realm of or my purview. Its such a dumb question, like, what is the book about. Because obviously, it takes an entire book to explain what a book is about, but how do you describe it to people . My decision to write a book like this and kind of what its about is to be able to deal with things that i might otherwise fume about. And probably at the end of the day, as a father, at least, fear for the country and for where we are as a culture. And instead of investing in a place that would tear me apart, i would find humor, was going to be my best way to share it, especially given my history in the debates. So its kind of, i just imagined the quicksand of that, of our country, and an american man walking delicately over that quicksand. And to see what humor i could find in that. I got to know you really in haiti, in the wake of the earthquake there. And, you know, a great admirer of the work that youve done there and continue to do there. Unlike many people, you continue to work there and continue to go back there. When you heard the president use the words he used to talk about haiti, about haitians as people who have aids, im wondering, personally, what how you felt . The first thing happened was, you know, this president is prone to such outbursts and so on, so it wasnt it wasnt a surprise, you know, in the big picture at all, that he would do this. But because it was haiti and because i knew so many people, so well, who loved this country so much, and its people, and so dream about what they believe to be the american integrity. And that they would, at first, not be angry at what he said, but in their sort of idealism, it would be deeply, deeply hurt that it was like a bully and i felt ashamed that i am part of an electorate that let that happen. I felt i wanted to call them all and, of course, theyre very strong people, as you know. So they were ready to get angry, quickly after. But i knew what the first reaction would be, and indeed, it was, hurt. Hurt . Deep hurt. How do you see things in haiti . The work youve been doing, you poured yourself into this. You have a you built an organization, you have raised millions and millions and millions of dollars. And you continue to be committed. How what is it that keeps you doing that . Because a lot of people, you know, move on . Well, i think, i think that it for example, i believe in this place. And the people there. Its a i have to constantly reassess the work that we do. I have to constantly rebalance recalibrate my sense of what the best value added that we can offer is, increasingly, through the years, weve turned over the leadership of our organization to haitians, who have increasingly made it work only better. This is while still going to be a slow process, this is going to be a kind of revolutionary one over time. Sean penn, always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, anderson. We had to cut the interview down for time. You can see my entire conversation with sean penn, learn about his rather unconventional writing process on ac360. Com. Well be right back. Arthritis, Little Things can be a big deal. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not an injection or a cream. Its a pill that treats differently. For psoriasis, 75 clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. And for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. 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Cnn tonight starts now. This is cnn tonight. Im don lemon. This may be the most surprising thing to come out of the white house. The president is saying nothing. Nothing. We havent heard from him for four straight days. And so far, anyway, hes got no Public Events on his schedule tomorrow. Hes saying nothing about the bombshell accusations from Stormy Daniels. Hes hardly even tweeting. Whatever happened to trump the counterpuncher . Sometimes he chooses to specifically engage and punch back and sometimes he doesnt. Well, theres no question the president has a lot on his