Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20170609

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Xfinity mobile. James clapper has served in the Intelligence Community for the republican and democratic president s alike. Hes a 50year veteran of Public Service in the United States air force. With all of what that entails, including staying away from politically charged conversations. However that may change. This was said about the trump russia story. I think you compare the two that watergate pales, really in my view, and compared to what were confronting now. Well, that watergate comparison made headlines tonight, reacting to james comeys sen lt testimony. And only here on cnn he took criticism of the president a little further. I spoke to him earlier this evening. General, clapper, as i mentioned earlier this week, you said that watergate pales to what were confronting now. I wonder from what you saw today and heard today did it disabuse you of that notion now . No, on the contrary it reinforced it. Just to understand the context of my comment, but the big difference in my mind between watergate, which i lived through and this is the back drop of the russian interference in our political process as opposed to a burglary, a breakin, to me that is hugely different. I thought jim comeys testimony was riveting, compelling. And to me reinforced the comparison at least in my mind between watergate and what we confront now. In what way does it reinforce the seriousness of what the u. S. Is confronting right now . Well, i think the director former director comeys testimony about his interactions with the president and what the president appeared to be trying to get him to do, i thought was quite damning and very disturbing. Have you ever seen or experienced a president acting in this way, talking in this way, interacting with the director of the fbi or the other intelligence officials this way . No, i have not. Not in my experience of 50plus years in the Intelligence Community. There have been some defenders of the president who have sort of given the explanation, well, the president doesnt have experience in these matters, hasnt served before, may not know about the separations or to the degree that a more, experienced, practiced government figure would or politician would. Is that essentially that he is sort of naive to the ways of the separations that are supposed to exist. Do you put any credence in that . Well, im not sure that is a valid excuse for someone who sought to be president and then to turn around and say and assert that he was so illprepared for the office itself, which is kind of a damning acknowledgement. Former director comey said he was also concerned the president would lie about their very first meeting. And that is why he took those notes immediately after he left trump tower. The white house quoted, they said definitively they could say the president was not a liar. Youve dealt with the president and director comey. I wonder if it came down to a he said, he said, whose word would you trust . There is absolutely no doubt in my mind i have and always will trust the word and the integrity of jim comey. And from what you heard today, from what has been going on over the past several months how much concern do you have about the integrity of the u. S. Institution, institutions that are the foundation of any solid democracy . I talked to general Michael Hayden several weeks ago who talked about the thin veneer of civilization and having real concerns about that . Mike hayden is right. My concerns about the assaults that our institutions are undergoing, both from external source, meaning russia, and an internal source, i thought that jims impassioned discourse on the real deal here, the big story is the russian interference in our process. And they exceeded their wildest dreams and expectations, i am sure, by the discord, doubt and the disruption they have caused in our political process. And by the way, they are emboldened now to be even more aggressive. Theyre not going to stop. You talked about threats, you talked about external sources, obviously russia, and internal sources. What is the internal source . Well, as i indicated i think the president himself has undertaken, whether intentionally or not, assaults on our institutions. And mike hayden is exactly right. There is a thin veneer there which can easily be jeopardized to the detriment of the country. I dont want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying you believe the president of the United States is a threat to democracy . Well, to our system, you know, the assaults on the institutions starting with my own, the Intelligence Community and his characterization of us as nazis. The commentary he has made about the judiciary, and individual judges. The assault on the bureau, as examples which are not constructive for our country. General clapper, i appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Very tough words from general clapper there. If you are just joining us now, lets quickly lay out the top story tonight. The riveting testimony, did he make the case for the obstruction of justice . And well get reaction from the Intelligence Community, and first, dana bash with all the key moments. Reporter do you solemnly swear to tell the truth. Reporter the former fbi director under oath and unvarnished, called the president who fired him, a liar. The administration then chose to defame me by saying that the organization was in disarray. That it was poorly led, that the work force had lost confidence in its leaders. Those were lies, plain and simple. Using the l word more than once. I was honestly concerned he may lie about the nature of our meeting and thought it would be really important to document. With a flair for the dramatic that he is known for, james comey tried to describe the fateful february 14th moment with the president , when the president kicked everybody out, and had a conversation with comey. My impression was i needed to document every word spoken, my sense is the attorney general felt he shouldnt leave, i knew something was about to happen that i needed to pay very close attention to. And although comey testified that the president did not explicitly order him to lay off flynn, that is exactly how he took it. I took it as a direction. Its the president of the United States with me alone saying i hope this, i took it as this is what he wants me to do. I didnt obey that, but thats the way i took it. Reporter he came under skra scrutiny from lawmakers saying, why didnt you fight back . Why didnt you say mr. President , this is wrong, why couldnt i discuss this with you . A good question, maybe if i was stronger i would have. Reporter after he was fired, comey testified the president said you better hope there are no tapes about our conversation, before this is leaked to the press. Stunningly, comeys testified it showed that he asked about real conversations with mr. Trump to the press. I woke up on monday night, it dawned on me, there might be corroboration for our conversation, there could be a tape. And the judgment was i needed to get that out into the public square. So i asked a friend of mine to share the content with a reporter, i thought that may prompt conversation with counsel. That is a stark illustration of how seasoned he is in the ways of washington. What was not standard washington behavior, argued comey, was a president asking an fbi director for what he took as a loyalty pledge. And i could be wrong, but my common sense told me what is going on here is he is looking to get something in exchange for granting my request to stay on the job. Throughout his nearly threehour testimony, comey revealed several nuggets about the fbi criminal probe now in the hands of special counsel robert mueller. Like this about flynn. Do you think the president was trying to obstruct justice or just seek for a way for mike flynn to save face, given that he had already been fired . General flynn at that point in time, there was an open criminal investigation of his statements in connection with the russian contacts and the contacts themselves. Reporter and she hinted at information not known about attorney general jeff sessions. Our discussions were he was close to and inevitably going to recuse himself. For a variety of reasons, we discussed incidents that i couldnt discuss in an open setting that would make the continued investigation into the Russian Investigation problematic. And comey told the president he was not being investigated. Comey revealed he handed over his memos about his conversations with trump to the special counsel, which could mean now the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice. And dana joins us. Now, director comey also had fascinating details and very damning details about then attorney general Loretta Lynch, and the way she asked him to not use the word investigation regarding Hillary Clinton. It was stunning. In any other context, this probably would have been the political bomb that dropped in the hearing. Basically, what he said and remember, of course, james comey was criticized in a big way by democrats and even some republicans for the way he handled the clinton email investigation. He said that the obama attorney general then basically, his boss, Loretta Lynch, directed him not to call it an investigation, but then call it a matter, which he said confused and concerned him. He also said that matter that the clinton cam win was using to describe. So the idea the attorney general was colluding this is a bomb on lynch he didnt show director comey in the best light because he agreed to call it a matter. He didnt stand up and say oh, no, its an investigation. He said it makes me queasy, but im going to do it. Thank you, danna. And i spoke with senator finestein earlier this evening. Senator feinstein, what was the key takeaway from your view on the comey testimony today . My key takeaway, the fbi has lost a good man and good leader. That is my takeaway. I think its pretty clear he refused to lay off of the flynn investigation. He refused to raise the cloud or stop the russia investigation. And he refused to pledge loyalty to a president and for that he got fired. And that is really too bad. That is not what the country is about. And the fbi should be separate. And it should function based on law. And not based on the political nature of a presidency. I want to play one of your exchanges with mr. Comey about that february 14th Oval Office Meeting when director comey said the president asked him to drop the flynn investigation. Here is the question. Youre big, youre strong. I know the oval office. And i know what happens to people when they walk in. There is a certain amount of intimidation. But why didnt you stop and say mr. President , this is wrong . I cannot discuss this with you . That is a great question, maybe if i were stronger i would have. I was so stunned by the conversation that i just took it in. And the only thing i could think to say because i was playing in my mind because i could remember every word he said. I was playing in my mind what should my response be and that is why i very carefully chose the words. And look, i have seen the tweet about tapes. Lordy, i hope there are tapes. Should he have done more in that moment or even in the aftermath, should he have alerted more people about it or come to congress . Well, i do think he should have said, look, mr. President , this is inappropriate, i cant discuss this with you. We can talk about other things but i cant talk about this. Do you believe the white house has a taping system . I would sure like to see it if they have it. And we may do something about trying to see if they do. But right now i candidly just dont know. At one point your colleague, republican senator tom cotton brought up past statements you had made to cnn about not yet seeing any evidence of collusion between the Trump Campaign and russians. Is that still accurate . Yes, its still accurate. Were in an investigative phase. We havent gathered all the evidence. Were just beginning. There is a lot more work to do. I know there is a rush to judgment but its going to take time to do it. And the fair thing is not to make a judgment until you can see all the evidence in one place, ask questions, and make judgments and come to a conclusion. And that is the only fair way to do it, in my mind, anderson. And so i would say the same thing today about collusion that i said whatever it was a month ago or so. And i know you cant discuss the specifics with what director comey told you and your colleagues in this afternoons classified session, but can you say whether he gave you more of the detail you were looking for and if it leads you further in one direction or another . Well, i can say this, there was an opportunity for members to ask questions. And so members ask questions that they had, that they could not ask in the public session. Thats really all i can say. Sure, finally, you heard the president s private attorney say this afternoon that the James Comey Testimony was a vindication of the president . Is that how you see it . Is that a vindication of the president . Not at all. Not at all. I actually tend to believe comey. And i think all of this could have been avoided. And the tragedy is that the United States government and the people, the 30,000 employees of the fbi lost a good leader over this. And i very much regret that. And i really hope the president does, too. But ill say this. If the new nominee wants to pledge loyalty to the president and wont maintain the kind of independence that has been the hallmark of the fbi, i certainly wont vote for him when he comes before us. Senator feinstein, i appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you, bye. Lot to discuss with the panel, gloria borger, dana bash, jeffrey toobin, mr. Fuller. Ms. Fuller, well start with you. Was today was it a good day for the president . I think it was a good day for the president , james comey came across as a washington insider, who manages to be spineless. There were moments he admitted he was not standing up and giving the proper advice to the president. He was also verifying that a lot of things the president said were true. I think also interestingly he also confirmed in my mind which i believed all along there was no obstruction of justice, no legal case to be made for that. He does contradict when the president said, i didnt tell him to stop the flynn investigation, he clear believes that was what he was directed to do. Look, i found it kind of interesting they were kind of debating how many angels sit on the head of a pin. Do they demand his honesty, his loyalty, i dont think any of that matters. The president has the authority under the article two of the constitution to appoint this person to seek the advice of the senate. He can fire him, certainly demand his loyalty. I think its normal for a president to demand loyalty from all of his subordinates. Do you think he has the right to fire him for any reason whatsoever . Absolutely. There may be a crime there, that can be investigated. If i dont want any catholics in my investigation, so thats okay . Yes, there are two separate legal questions, one, can the president constitutionally fire a person . The answer is yes, even if he thinks he smells bad. Number two, even if the president fires him and engages in that behavior and we have evidence of that beyond a reasonable doubt that could be a separate a crime. Then the question becomes legally can you prosecute a sitting president . I think thats legally ambiguous. Could the crime amount to a high crime that will suffice for impeachment . I think the answer to that is clearer, and i think it would be yes. We disagree profoundly about this. The examples are gave are indicative of how serious what is going on here, if there are crimes committed between the attorney general between the director of the fbi and the president you bet that is obstruction of justice. All right, tell me how its obstruction of justice . Its very similar to 1972 not at all similar. In the same oval office where the president said there is a pending investigation of his former National Security advisor, and he says let him go. Let him go. Thats the use of the fbi for political purposes, and its unlawful, and it should beal prosecuted and investigated. Here is the professor in me coming out. There are two sets of statutes under the u. S. Code under title 18. They deal with the obstruction of pending proceedings and obstruction of investigations, there is only one obstruction of justice that would be arguable. That basically requires that there be an act of bribery that prevents a communication to a criminal investigator about a crime. You would agree that neither one of those elements have been satisfied. Correct. Okay, we move on to pending proceedings. That is the relevant one. That is correct, 1510 and 12, both have proceedings language in them. Pending proceedings is a legal term of art defined in section 1515, and a pending proceeding is a judicial or quasijudicial proceeding, for example that would be an Administrative Agency that has subpoena power, enforcement power. The fbi does not have subpoena power so does not qualify. Every single court that has been asked the question does an fbi investigation constitute a pending proceeding under the obstruction procedures has answered the question no. Correct, and there was a grand jury proceeding in the Eastern District of virginia investigating kelly at this moment. Yes. So there is your answer. Let me bring in other folks. I know. I know. I like i love the detail, though. I do love the detail. Im a geek. Believe me, this is a panel of geeks. This is called network of geeks, this is what we do. Paul today i dont think the president can afford many more days this good. I disagree, good day, okay, you stay with that. My Law School Dean used to say if you want to hide something, put it in a law book. Im not going to enter that conversation, but i am a geek, i was a watergate geek, i was too old for Little League and too young for girls and i fixated on watergate, the smoking gun, the chief of staff for the president said the way to handle it now is for us to have Vernon Walters call pat gray, the head of the fbi, and just say stay the hell out of this. This is business, we dont want you to go any further on that. Nixon says, uhhuh. That is all. For that, he was forced to resign, even Barry Goldwater said you were telling the cia to disrupt an fbi investigation. So if uhhuh was enough to drive nixon out of office, what the hell did we just hear james comey testify on . Jason, you clearly believe this is vindication for the president , i mean, im guessing. Call me crazy. Look, i think the democrats severely overplayed their hand today. We waited all day for some big shoe to drop and there just was not anything. Once the folks in the media and the democrats get done running through the recap of the news cycle there is nowhere else to go. The biggest news today was the fact director comey cleared the president on a number of fronts. That was remarkable. There will be additional folks looking into the information on the leaks on the justice department, by leaking out this memo. I think that needs additional scrutiny, and i think Loretta Lynch will have a couple of bumpy days in her future. There will be criticisms on other stories. You know, its interesting the idea that you know, there was no big shoe dropping today. In some ways because so much of this information was reported out, leaked out. Gotten by our reporters, the New York Times and the Washington Post and others, it was not as big of a surprise, and because his Opening Statement was given out yesterday. And the Senate Intelligence Committee Posted it to their website, comey wanted it released so they could comb through it and come up with questions. So a lot of gee whiz questions were already known. So two things happening today, really a problem for the president was two big negatives got reinforced. The fbi director over and over again called him a liar, called his administration liars. And that was already a negative for donald trump. Twothirds of the country thought he was a liar back on election day, twothirds of the le electorate. When comey said, i considered it a directive, a majority of people believe that he did want to interfere. Because there was no big new thing to chew on, no big shoe to drop, i do think this day probably wasnt as bad it could have been for donald trump. But also it wasnt a bad and comey came out and said i was fired because of the russia investigation, we had not heard that before that he had drawn the conclusion and he said that is a big deal. And so you can you can see as you go through all of his meetings and Everything Else that maybe he was not at obstruction on day one, but by the time he was fired for his russia investigation and he would not answer this question today with good reason, but you can see that he was drawing, you know, that this is why i got fired. Plenty of the things that director comey said today, though, to jays point you can point to and say for somebody who was being portrayed as a boy scout, he clearly is a savvy, savvy, political player who survived for a long time. He doesnt confront Loretta Lynch when hes told to use the matter instead of investigation, yet he leaks this document in order to get a special counsel. Its like three dimensional chess. He was strategic in the way he delivered his testimony, what he said. I mean, there were some questions, senator feinstein hit the nail squarely when she asked, youre a strong person, why did you not question or challenge the president at this moment . It was also Loretta Lynch, i called some people close to her and they said they used the word matter at that time to neither confirm or deny there was an investigation. And then there was this other piece about lordy, i wish that there was a tape. So i called some members of the secret service and they actually said there is no taping devices within the white house. So but at the same time could have used this. Exactly, yes, exactly, right. And donald trump is known, well, before he was president , when he was a businessman to tape people. So his business meetings, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. But the question is did it happen . So there is a lot of questions i was left with that i believe comey was delivered a strong statement, and he said, he said and he said, she says. So its a long road. Dont mess with comey. Well, i think, i mean, i appreciate that it probably could have been worse for the white house, but any day that your spokesperson says the president is not a liar. And needs to say that because the guy that he fired from the fbi says he was, multiple times, is not a great day. We have much more ahead including how the white house is reacting to all this, and the president at least not reacting on twitter, and more on the comparisons with three sides of that scandal. The prosecutor and investigative reporter. One of the president s men who paid the price for it. You can count all the ingredients in real milk on three fingers. And you can count all the ingredients in flavored almond milk on ten fingers and five toes. The president has always said he is a counter puncher. Today you can argue that he got hit. The former fbi director called him a liar, and accused him of obstructing justice, however, there has been a reaction from his personal attorney. Jim acosta has the latest on that, joins us now. So the white house claiming a victory today. Explain what the president s lawyer said. Reporter yes, the president was not counterpunching, his lawyer was certainly punching back making the case the president had a good day today. But he was also trying to have it both ways, at the same time saying that comey confirmed that the president is not a part of this russia investigation. But at the same time, pushing back on the notion that the president insisted that comey sign on as some kind of loyalty pledge. But the white house, the president s legal team really feel like they struck gold with this admission from james comey that he did orchestrate the release of his memos through that columbia professor. And you heard that from the attorney today. He called it a former leaker. Heres what he had to say. Today, mr. Comey admitted that he leaked to friends of his purported memos of those privileged communications. One of which he testified was classified. Mr. Comey also testified that immediately after he was terminated he authorized his friends to leak the contents of those memos to the press in order to, in mr. Comeys words, quote, prompt the appointment of a special counsel, close quote. Although mr. Comey testified he only leaked the memos in response to a tweet. The Public Record reveals that the New York Times was quoting from those memos the day before the referenced tweet. Which belies mr. Comeys excuse for this unauthorized disclosure of privileged information and appears to be entirely retaliatory. We will leave it to the appropriate authorities to determine whether these leaks should be investigated, along with all of the others that are being investigated. Now the president s attorney, mark kasowitz, has been feeling pretty good about comeys testimony for the last 24 hours in response to that written testimony yesterday. We understand that he was at the trump hotel in d. C. Last night passing out cigars and claims that the president has already won in all of this, anderson. Jim, if memory serves, didnt director comey especially say it was not classified . But mark cas wits was saying one of them was classified. Correct, how can it be a leak if it was not classified information . So you see perhaps legal there from the attorney today, but no question about it this is not case closed for the president at all by any stretch. But given the fact the president was called a liar once again by james comey in his testimony earlier today they are feeling pretty good at the white house. Jim acosta, thank you very much. We go now to gary tuckman. Reporter and Butler County has been very kind to republican candidates, since 2000 the republican candidates won each time, including donald trump who won 61 of the vote in 2016. With us now are nine trump voters here in fairfield, ohio at ricks taverna and grill. You all came back to talk to me tonight. Thank you for coming back. First thing i want to ask you, it is a crime when you testify before congress to lie. That is perjury, you can go to prison for it. Raise your hand if you believe james comey lied at all. Four of you believe he lied. Yep. Raise your hand he says that donald trump quote told lies plain and simple. Raise your hand if you believe that donald trump lied at all about the situation. None of you believe it. For those of you who didnt raise your hands, if neither person lied, how can that be possible . Why do you think if nobody lied, why did that happen . Well, first of all, things can be distorted and appear like lies, and i think maybe the media may be distorted some things, not getting both sides. The media. Now, you raised your hand. Do you think mr. Comey should go to jail . I think mr. Impression of comey of this, he was kind of l. A. Kind of guy, like martha stewart. Especially with his testimony today, he is more like ian flemming where he wants to be the next novelist, a lot of things he came up with things he was more inclined to fiction. One of the things he testified was he was in a room with the president , the attorney general, and he told his soninlaw to get out. He said mr. Trump said he hoped he would let it go, meaning the Russian Investigation. But if your parents, if they say they hope you do something, isnt that imperative that you do it or is that necessarily not an imperative . He has been manipulated by the clintons, too, when lynch told him to overlook the meeting with Hillary Clinton is not president. Talking about the situation so you dont think that comey is telling the truth about that . What do you think . I think mr. Comey should have said something at that time. Should have said something to who . Mr. Trump . To mr. Trump. What should he have said to mr. Trump . I cannot do that, i have to go on with investigations, et cetera. Be honest. We have to do it. I was never asked why i didnt think he was being truthful. But i believe he didnt adequately explain, why couldnt he just tell trump this is inappropriate, or tell the chief of staff or doj to tell trump . He continued on with that and could not adequately explain that. I feel the whole thing was wrapped around mr. Comey says he believes he was fired because of the Russian Investigation, interestingly, the president has said i fired him because of russia. Is there a problem with that . I dont have a problem with that. First of all, mr. Trump represents the United States of america. President trump is our president and sets a standard. But he had commented many times that he liked the job mr. Comey was doing. Then all of a sudden he fires him because he doesnt like well, i think he tried to be up lifting and encouraging to your, quote, unquote, employees. But also he sent mr. Comey several opportunities to be forthright and honest on some questions. Let me ask you, a show of hands, how many of you feel better about donald trump, your president , after this hearing . How many of you feel worse about donald trump . I guess yall would have raised your hands the first time. You think it was a success for mr. Trump, not for mr. Comey . Absolutely. Nine ohio voters on an historical day here in the United States of america. Anderson, back to you. Thank them very much for not only watching with you but also coming back, long day for him. Appreciate that. Gloria borger, dana bash, dana, its always interesting and valuable when you hear from trump voters in an important state like that. Clearly, they saw it as a victory for the white house. You know, there is certainly a constituency, and weve known this for the arguments that the president makes, which is that you cant trust your lying eyes, you cant trust your lying ears, you certainly cant trust the media or the elites, or all the people conspiring against me. You certainly cant believe that. By the way, that is the same open door that the russians pushed, with attitudes about Hillary Clinton and the elites, and all the rest. That is possible, there are historical parallels to this, there are a lot of people who supported nixon through watergate. And no, im not comparing all this fact pattern to the watergate, but what im comparing is how nixon would rail against elites and the media and those conspiring against him. Trump lifts from that playbook, and there are others who support him. The trump team, and getting help from them in a robust way this week, are trying to lift from, and thats bill clintons they believe his people were masterful at keeping their base happy during the whole impeachment saga, and during the Monica Lewinsky its probably not an accident that the president was with the evangelicals, saying were under siege. Withdraw from the paris accord, which made a lot of people in his base happy. You can sort of look at the list of things he has done on and on and on. Its not an accident. That is how they hope to survive the midterm elections, and make sure the house of representatives, or any impeachment proceedings would begin, stays in the hands of the republicans. Thats kind of confusing. But if its the president fighting jim comey, or its the president fighting the democrats in congress who want to impeach him it really is easier to rally your base than it is to say oh, by the way, im not on the same page as paul ryan or the freedom caucus. That confuses people. So in a way this fight is something that i think trump is probably hankering for in an odd way because it will help him with his constituency. And, look, theres a lot of what happened in the committee today among republicans, too, posturing and saying, well, this is a great day because you cant he committed a crime. When they are excusing such disregard for the proper conduct of the president of the United States. In dealing with an fbi director this way and insinuating himself into a criminal investigation. And the fact look, a lot of his supporters dont want to faceup to some facts here. The president wants to make this a credibility fight between him and jim comey, President Trump who rose to National Political prominence off a racist lie on bu rock obama, and accused obama of wiretapping him. I mean, come on. Which is why not one republican questioned the veracity of what james comey was saying, it was he said, and nobody said what comey was testifying and came the closest, why didnt you challenge the president , et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, complemented comey on his testimony and writing skills and how clear he was. Because they really could not challenge what he was saying directly. But to the original point, if the republicans are still strongly behind the president which they appear to be, you know, on the hill the republicans are not going to break away from him. He demonstrated how politically important he is. As long as that is the case you will see them hold together, even though his popularity is plummeting at large. Thanks so much. Ahead, we all heard the watergate comparisons that are being bandied about. I will speak with three key figures in the watergate hearings. Now you drive 300to be fmiles to watch this. Dont get me wrong. You love flag dancing as much as the next guy. All eight hours of it. But what you really love is your little girl. Yes, nice pop toss flag dancing . Weve been there. And with free hot breakfast and a warm welcome, well be there for you. Book direct for a guaranteed discount on your next weekend stay. Hampton by hilton. Tthats why at comcast,t to be connected 24 7. Were always working to make our services more reliable. With technology that can update itself. And advanced Fiber Network infrastructure. New, more Reliable Equipment for your home. And a new culture built around customer service. It all adds up to our most Reliable Network ever. One that keeps you connected to what matters most. Ever since the president fired james comey as director, there have been a lot of comparisons to watergate and todays testimony did little to quiet those comparisons. As we showed you earlier, yesterday James Clapper said watergate pales in comparison to whats going on now. Heres another look at what he told me. From what you saw today and heard today, did it disabuse you of that notion at all . No. On the contrary, it reinforced it and just so you understand the context of my comment, the big difference in my mind between watergate, which i lived through and this, is the backdrop of the russian interference in our political process as opposed to a burglary, a breakin. To me, thats a hugely different, and i thought james comeys testimony was riveting, compelling and, to me, reinforced the comparison at least in my mind between watergate and what we confront now. So are the comparisons apt . Luckily we have three people who would know better than anyone. Carl bernstein, john dean, and richard benveniste. Carl, is this bigger than watergate . I dont know if its a question of bigger. Ive said, as you know, in some ways this could be worse than watergate because it is about undermining our electoral process by a hostile foreign power and destabilizing our most basic institutions, which are free elections. But also watergate itself was about undermining free elections because the objective of the nixon conspiracy was to interfere in the Democratic Partys primaries and see as nixons political opponent in 1972 to see George Mcgovern be the nominee of the Democratic Party rather than senator edmond muske, who was the frontrunner. And through a vast campaign of political espionage and sabotage, the Nixon White House succeeded in helping mcgovern be the nominee. So there are those parallels except this time its a hostile, foreign power that has intruded and undermined our electoral system. Although clapper made the argument that its also a domestic force, which is the president of the United States undermining the institution. Well, exactly. In both cases. Right. John dean, in terms of the larger arc of these kinds of investigations, where is this investigation compared to the arc watergate . Very early. If you go from the june 17, 1973 arrest at the Democratic National 72, excuse me. To the end of the last trial, which was january 1 of 75, thats about 928 days. And that first eight, ten months, there was almost no attention to it at all other than carl and bob and the Washington Post. But other than that, cbs, a few stories, but really no coverage at all. Supporters of nixon, how long did i mean i know youve often credited its republicans who finally went to nixon, but rank and file, you know, citizens, were they still backing nixon all the way to the end . Not quite to the end. What happened is they overwhelmingly reelected him. He carried every state but massachusetts and the District Of Columbia in the 72 election. Slowly but surely there was an attrition in his support. You can see it in the polls. It really, though, isnt until the discovery of the tapes and the fight becomes about whether to turn over his tapes, and he finally gets caught in too many lies. And then he starts losing his supporters. Just in terms of the interplay between a special prosecutor and congressional investigations, i mean we saw this in irancontra as well where oliver north gets immunity. How does that interplay work . Thats not happening again. I have the same problem h. Cox tried to block my testimony. It wasnt archie coxs finest moment. But, indeed, there was tension at the beginning, and thereafter we were the beneficiaries of a lot of work done by the Senate Select committee on watergate. But as weve been saying, watergate really puttered along. John and his friends did a good job of keeping the lid on watergate, putting out the story, thirdrate burglary, et cetera. It wasnt until the saturday night massacre that was the turning point in watergate, when people began to Pay Attention because something extraordinary happened. Not only did nixon fire the man who was investigating him, but the attorney general of the United States and the Deputy Attorney general resigned because they wouldnt fire cox as nixon had ordered. Now, what happened to us as the members of the Watergate Special prosecution force was an extraordinary militarytype operation where the fbi, on nixons orders, came into our offices and took them over. Took over our files and took over our offices. Now, whats extraordinary about what were dealing with and where i see a potential for analogy is not now, but this is a curtainraiser. This sets the tone for an investigation by mueller, who is extraordinarily well qualified to lead the investigation. But are people thinking and talking as they are in congress, some of them, about the possibility that in a fit of pique, President Trump might fire mueller and or rosenstein . What happens then . Hmm. I lived through the idea of the fbi coming in and seizing our offices. It was not a happy moment. But i mean, again, you do credit republicans with really kind of driving this in the end. That is the difference so far. That the real heroes of watergate, the great patriots were republicans in the house and the senate who did not go along with the president of the United States and said, this is not about a republican plot or conspiracy. This is about a criminal president of the United States, and we are not going to stand for it. Key members of the House Judiciary Committee who voted for articles of impeachment. The key members of the Senate Watergate committee. Throughout the process. And thats what we have not seen today, for instance. We look at what the speaker of the house, paul ryan, said in defense of the indefensible today and said, oh, well, all this talk that the president was hearing and that he was saying to comey, its just about a new guy in town and doesnt know how to talk the ways of washington when, in fact, hes talking borderline obstruction of justice. So theres a huge difference here. But what we have seen and one of the reasons it was such a bad day for the president of the United States, you know, first what comey testified to he had been told and how he interpreted what the president was telling him. But also we get into the notion that this committee in the senate, which we had said, ah, theyre nothing. Theyre not going to do anything. They dont have the staff. Theyre going to go along partisan lines. It is showing that it is determined to be a serious inquiry with whatever the limitations of staff they had. And now the president is being closed in on by the best and most competent investigator in this investigative culture, bob mueller, and a Bipartisan Committee of the senate of the United States, which is determined to get to the bottom of what he has done. Carl bernstein, thanks so much. Thanks for watching 360. Cnn tonight starts right after a quick break. Announcer this is cnn breaking news. Two hours and 20 minutes of testimony that had america on the edge of its seat, and it all comes down to this. Who do you believe . The president of the United States or the fbi director he fired . This is cnn tonight. Im don lemon live in washington. Thanks for joining us. James comey repeatedly and bluntly saying under oath the president lied. The administration then