that there is fraud. i think this is really about the dollar amounts. the attorney general has asked for hundreds of millions of dollars, so i think one question is whether or not the judge goes as high as she would like. and then i do think his point about that the judge made about the adult sons who run the business does lend towards wondering whether he will really try to cripple the organization itself if he thinks that they are really now in charge and they didn't necessarily have personal knowledge or intent with respect to the fraud. so the continuation of the business, i think, is a remaining question. >> let me get norm back into this conversation. how long do you think, norm, this process could unwind, could take place before the trump organization is directly impacted? >> the judge has said he wants to issue a ruling towards the end of the month. that's an approximate date. then it will move through the appellate process. we know the appellate courts in new york, the appellate division has had some questions about