trafficking than al qaeda. >> i just want to be precise and want to make sure that i'm not hearing you correctly. are you really comparing hugo chavez to george washington, thomas jefferson, james madison? that's what i was hearing. but i want you to explain. >> well, democracy has evolved. my point is that our first 15 presidents owned slaves and called it democracy for 204 years. we've come a mighty long way. the democracy in south africa is just, what, 25 years old or thereabouts. i was just there eight years ago, white people couldn't vote, couldn't vote on campuses, democracy has evolved and if we're engaged, we can help it evolve in the right direction. >> what about some of the others who attended? were you comfortable that