single example of a time or a case when these programs not just the bulk data collection but a couple other things set to expire certain wiretap provisions have saved the day, have thwarted terrorism. asked further, can you at least explain a case where they helped things? the white house response has been that he's cases involve classified material. they're not going to share those campbells. in our view you think they would have at least one where they could point to something concrete's and say, this here's an example of why we need these programs but they're not doing that. what they're saying are, these are key tools. they're critical elements of a case. they may not solve the case or lead to stopping a bomb plot or something like that but there are no less important. the white house calls them critical. maybe the most important one to expire seems to be roving wiretaps. they would be used on a suspect that keeps switching cell