there's absolutely no reason ever to default, and a good leader would be saying we will never default. >> would a good senator be saying we will never default? >> absolutely. i'm trying to be that. we should never default. we should never miss a payment, but people have to realize that not raising the debt ceiling means you have to balance yu budget. it doesn't mean you default, and people are conflating these two, and they're not the same thing. >> so your best calculation, do you think there are enough republicans in the senate to join with democrats to pass an increase in the debt ceiling? what if it came down to the wire and the only thing available was a clean debt ceiling increase, nothing on it, just increase the debt ceiling? >> you know, i think at this point, you know, we had a vote on saturday, yesterday, and it was to just raise it without any restrictions, and we all voted solidly against raising it without limit and without restrictions. that's what the democrats offered us yesterday. no limit over the next year or