determine and they take an oath to uphold the constitution and the constitution tells them that an insurrectionist who tried to overturn the country's constitution cannot be entrusted with protecting it in the future. so, stay tuned. this is going to be a saga that lasts between now and the election. >> no question about it and, judge luttig, several questions arise in listening to both of you. i mean, without a conviction how can we determine if -- how can it be determined that trump's actions actually meet this standard? he was not convicted in the senate when he was impeached in all of this. what would you say to folks who might say, are you trying to wave the constitutional magic wand here? >> jim, what professor tribe and i have concluded as did professors baud and paulson is