kind of come to expect there are no consequences for this bad, arguably, potentially criminal behavior says, what the heck? there are no ramifications? >> in the what the heck category, where are we if we have to try and criminally prosecute an ex-president for this kind of behavior. something has gone badly off the rails if we let someone get to that position of power and have to police whether or not they're flushing papers down the toilet. >> one step back. this comes amid a flurry of new information. "washington post" reporting rudy giuliani at one point between the election and january 6th went to mitch i to ask a county prosecutor to turn over voting machines, right? we can talk about different patterns of things. this consistent effort to do things to overturn the election. >> there's -- yes, a consistent habit of rudy giuliani breaking