to poke holes in it. but that becomes an important moment. to try to crystallize for elected officials and for the rest of the public what's at stake here. what was said earlier, i think the only thing that changes the politics is perhaps the politics on the democratic side. would, at some point, they decide not to impeach? and perhaps pursue censuring the president? that may not come until later until the prospect of a trial. that's the only time i could see the white house engaging in trying to -- to challenge what actually happened because, again, we're in this unique trumpian world where he admits what he did in the beginning. it's not a who done it? it's i did it. and so what? and that's what makes this so strange. >> do you believe that there is a significant chance that democrats back off a formal impeachment vote and take that alternate path to a censure vote? >> i mean, i don't see -- i don't see it right now. but i think as they look, as leadership looks, the