responsible? they're holding republicans for the shutdown. the debt ceiling, not raising it, the majority says it would be the republicans' fault, not the president's fault. if you get to the point where you have a shutdown and you're running up the risk of the united states default, the economy would be in peril. even if the president was winning politically, he'd be losing if that happens. >> when you look at the first poll you put up, 56% say would be a bad thing. 38% say it would be a good thing if the debt ceiling was not raised. does that show you that the messaging has got in the way of actual fact? every professional economic analyst would say you have to raise the debt ceiling. these are bills we also racked up. >> this is more evidence, kate, of divided america. red versus blue and how the dynamic has change, especially since you have these new tea party members. the 30 or 40 in the house that were driving this debate who go home to safe republican districts and keep saying you have to stop all this spending, the government can't spend more than it takes in.