can see a commercial aircraft. it looks like a commercial aircraft. it squawks -- it squawks a commercial aircraft. so something is absolutely appalling that's gone on here. >> richard, hang on one second. colonel, hang on one second. i want to go straightaway to jim sciutto, our chief national security correspondent in washington. i believe you have new information. >> yes, john, i've been in touch with officials in ukraine as well as other contacts on the ground there. the first thing i would just get across is that ukrainian officials are scrambling right now for a reaction to this. they are very concerned, i'm told, about the circumstances under which this plane went down. that's the first thing. but second, i'm told by contacts on the ground in ukraine that around the same time that this plane, mh17, disappeared, that the defense minister of the self-proclaimed donetsk people's republican, the russian -- pro-russian separatist group i should say that established a sort of quasi-state in eastern ukrai ukraine. the defense minister claimed at