i don't want us to have a separate but equal institution of civil unions, and that was the big threat. and then bush, when he actually endorsed a federal marriage amendment, suddenly the entire gay establishment were like, okay, we're with you. it was like -- >> if bush is against it, we were for it. >> yes, bush -- i would like to say that my arguments or whatever, evans brilliant strategy really persuaded the gay community. but no, i think george bush by endorsing the most unbelievably draconian, to actually write us out of equality in the constitution itself, unprecedented attack on an minority, galvanized everybody around this issue. >> do you worry that there will be a right-wing backlash of the kind that roe v. wade produced for the next decade or two? >> no. i think that backlash happened.