republicans are doing what they've been doing for the last number of months. i'm just not sure how this is going to shake out. >> michael, it's how it plays with the american public and then also, i suppose, in a sense means the president is not just calling the shots himself, but in a sense ceding this to the jim jordans of the world. >> right. i think what happened with mulvaney is that he and his lawyers saw an opportunity to glomb on to that lawsuit that kupperman has filed as jon bolton because that was richard leone, a republican-appointed judge that was deemed to be favorable to what the trump white house was arguing and they thought they could score a quick point with judge leone and the really interesting rift is not so much between mulvaney and the president and everyone ends up angering him at some point and the rift between bolton and