>> mm-hmm. >> there's no question about what he's doing. i can't look into his mind, i don't know. but objectively from what he's doing, he's doing everything that you would do if you were going to try to trade information with beijing. >> so when ewen is saying he feels like he was idealistic and those were his motives, you're saying at this point you don't buy it? >> look, he could be idealistic, but guy burgess, all those guys in england had these really idealized notions of the soviet union. this guy probably has idealized notions of china. he said china is not an enemy n of the united states in that interview. he said it doesn't matter, i can trade information with them, they're our friends. this is just a really bad story and it's going to get worse. >> that's a pretty amazing thing to say. chris lawrence joins us from the pentagon. gordon, i wanted to bring chris in. chris, i know you've been looking into this. how could this person or any person being getting all this top secret clearance to get all this information that he had? he's one of half a million