table. we've done several rivers now together from one of the steepest river ever run in the united states, in the bighorns of wyoming. we did the first descent of the box canyon and tongue together. and it was in that steep-ass crazy river that we realized we had something really special and we all functioned well as a group. >> are we doing seven nights, eight days, or eight days -- >> i don't know if we're ready to make that decision, but it would be, i would imagine, eight days from the way we calculated it, right? >> try eight days of food, see how that feels, and then go from there. but that's about the maximum that i want to try to pack into my boat for weight. >> ben is probably the most experienced expedition whitewater kayaker there is.