and peggy noonan? how do you account for those solid conservatives and republicans, who saw through this from the beginning? >> you know what their answer is. their answer is everyone you just mentioned. they're a rhino. >> they are all right knows. they are all part of the machine. elitist d.c. muckety-mucks. they they all made their money on the system and they want to keep it closed. they don't want an insurgent like trump. i'm good with all that. honestly. i think it is a debatable issue. it's an argument to have. >> uh-huh. >> um, they just picked the wrong change agent. and i think -- >> that's right. >> -- that's why it had to get worse because they were never going to be able to bank on him, as being better. so what they had to do was now argue that everything is even worse than they thought. and that's what the big lie is. >> well, look. they're -- they're devoted to him. hopelessly, devoted, as an old-song lyric wepnt. and yet, what is his level of devotion to anyone, who is not 100% loyal to him? exhibit a, mike pence.