the you could see blood and scratches and he would be raked up. >> both females would gang up on him. tilikum was the one we trusted. we never were concerned about tilikum. the issue really was we stored these whales at night in what we called a module. which was 20 feet deep across and probably 30 feet deep. as a safety precaution because we were worried about people cutting the net and letting them go and no lights out. so there is no stimulation, just in a dark metal 20 foot by 30 foot pool for 2/3 of their life. >> when we first started, they were quite small and quite young, so they fit in there quite nicely, but they were immobile for the most part. >> it didn't feel good. it just didn't. and it -- it was just wrong. >> we started having difficulty getting them all into this one small steel box, to be honest. that's what it was. it was a floating steel box. >> that's where food deprivation would come in. we would hold back food and they would know if they were in the