with the logistics, what we would call the second echelon. they will -- they don't have time to do a long siege. a long siege could take weeks and be dreadfully bloody. and as general hertling mentioned earlier, they don't have the numbers for a massive stalingrad type siege battle. so, they've got to finish it. it's bloody, brute force, artillery including the thermobarrack. all of that. i think the whole facade is beginning to crack around them. they are in country and also in russia itself. >> general hertling, if that's true, to what end violent, bloody, again, is the objective decapitate the leadership? and then what? >> i think the real issue that