i mean, i say that in that i think what jordan is talking about primarily is pressure as a -- feeling that they were -- something was going to happen. they weren't going to get their money in order to, if they didn't do that. i think it's fairly clear that the president wanted the ukrainians to investigate the bide bidens. the president said so. i mean repeatedly throughout the course of the summer that certainly has been the case. so if pressure means that they were asked, i think what jordan is saying, pressure means that you actually have something that you're using to pressure them other than simply asking. all this says is the president asked and that the ukrainians felt like maybe they should do something. >> and the money was withheld. >> again -- >> and the $300 million was withheld. that seems like that's pressure to me. >> okay. the rooster crows when the sun comes up. one is not a cause for the other. the reality is, yes, the money was withheld, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons to withhold that money, which has been laid out repeatedly.