perceptions of ukraine to the dismay of some of his advisers. quoting now from "the washington post," quote, over time, you just see a wearing down of defenses, a former white house official said, describing the struggle to contest the influence of giuliani, putin, and orban. and just pause a minute to consider the implications. the leader of the one country that no president before this one has fully trusted was telling this president not to trust ukraine, a country that russia seeks to dominate. joining us now is john hudson, who shares a byline on the story. john, what exactly happened in these conversations between president trump, putin, and orban? and i understand at least one of the conversations with orban was face to face in the white house, and there wasn't anyone else present. is that right? >> that's right. u.s. officials described to the post an alarming sort of evolution in president trump's view of zelensky and ukrainian officials in general. now, it started out a little bit