those? the terrorists want to do america harm. they don't play any rule book so why should america take anything off the table? >> yeah, well, you don't define yourself by the practices and objectives of the enemy. the enemy is apaling and i dedicated to stopping these people. they're terrible. there's no debate about that. the issue is, who are we and what do we need to be? torture doesn't work. it's illegal to all of our laws. i could cite the whole program with them and it's clear what happens. the statements you just played are disingenuous. you don't talk to the wolf about what's going wrong in the chickchick chicken coop. that's obvious. we have methods to affirm our values. >> gary bernsten, do you think torture works? >> does force and coercion work? i believe it does work and i've seen foreign intelligence services around the world coerce