to do. >> but let me just push back, jeff. i mean, there are people who say, look, he is a whistleblower, and that a public debate about this is necessary. this is something that the public has a right to know about, if it's affecting them. what do you say to that? >> well, the public has a right to know, but the way to bring it to public attention is not to commit crimes. and yes, it is possible he wouldn't get as much attention if he simply went to the senators like jeff merkley, like senator udall, who care deeply about this issue and are doing it the right way. instead, he just threw this stuff out to newspaper reporters at the "washington post" and "the guardian" who were more responsible than he was who actually didn't publish everything they get. he was so irresponsible that even bart gelman of the "washington post" and glenn greenwald said, you know what, this is too much. we're not going to release that. we can't have a system where people with classified -- access to classified information behave