to be a good tour rider, you have to be a good mountain climber. and he wasn't particularly strong in those two areas. to me he didn't have what it took in those early years. >> lance armstrong was then with the american motorola team. so, too, was new zealander steven swart. steven swart said that in 1995 when phil anderson had left the team, the riders complained that their european opponents were doping. >> did you talk with lance armstrong about the need to start using epo to be competitive? >> we had a discussion about it, yeah. >> what did mr. armstrong say? >> he said if we're going to do the tour, we've got to perform. we need the results. >> what did that mean? >> i think he just -- didn't