State party some kind of card for personal expenses. Jeb bush putting out the idea you are a risky bet . Raising questions that have come up about using the Republican Party credit card in florida for personal use. People need to understand what they were talking about here. It wasnt a credit card. It was an American Express charge card. The bills would be mailed to me. Every month i would go through it. If there was a personal expense, i paid it. If there was a party expense, the party paid it. I realize in hindsight that i shouldve done it differently. But the Republican Party never paid a single expense of mine, personal experience. In that interview, rubio lashed out at Donald Trumps attacks. He threw a dart of his own. He is a disaster with his credit cards. He certainly lives above his means, there is no question about that. You get a kick out of donald . He is raising an important issue. You had to draw down on your retirement account to pay for living expenses. I wanted to make sure we had cash on hand. All kinds of things,. All kind of things. It is not day to day living expenses. Trump is trying to portray himself as a good businessman, and yet he has not been pushed on this issue of the bankruptcies. He explains how he used the Bankruptcy Code i think that is important for voters to focus in on. I hope he will be continued to be asked about it. It is legitimate. John i turn to you to provide a detailed taxonomy of the various tactics he is deploying. Mark he is good. He never got rattled the, always smiling. Up in New Hampshire today, facing more questions. Still very smooth and slick. Pushing back on trump, very unusual for rubio to say another candidate should be scrutinized on a personal issue, trumps bankruptcy. He is deflecting. He is saying they are democratic attacks, nothing new here. The fact is that he wasnt completely straightforward. Neverd the state party did pay for personal stuff, he reimbursed. He said that the refrigerator wasnt a personal expense, it is. John im impressed with his ability to smile while donald trump calls him a complete loser. That takes some kind of composure. The refrigerator thing, a little bogus. The credit card versus the charge card thing, a lot of people will not buy that difference. You hear the echo of Hillary Clinton here i did it for , convenience. Hillary clinton gets hammered by republicans for that. He will get hammered by his fellow republicans and others for this. Mark some people are wondering why they waited to put these additional records out. Maybe there will be nothing, and it will be a great bit of political theater. I will say, to be honest to our viewers, what rubios opponents think is that there is more here than sloppy bookkeeping. Tip of the iceberg. Tip of the iceberg. They hope this does not only rattle him, but leads to new areas. I have seen a lot of candidates under pressure. He is flawless in tone. He is doing it and short interviews. John these are tried and true tactics. He is executing them well. Florida politics is a swamp of corruption. People have gone to jail who have done what he did, misusing party funds. I am not saying he will, but there is smoke. A lot of people are trying to figure out the extent of the five. Mark its not just his finances. He has been forced to defend his policies. None more so than his previous positions on immigration. Up in New Hampshire today donald , trump for the second straight day brought up newly minted rubio fundraiser paul singer. Paul singer represents amnesty and illegal immigration pouring into the country, and now he is with rubio. Totally in favor of very lax rules. He was a member of the gang of eight. Mark in that interview this morning, rubio said the country will not pass comprehensive Immigration Reform. At some college in new inpshire, he said he would end the executive program that shields dreamers. Is policy going to be a problem as rubio gets more scrutiny. John he will have to be very good because of his youth and inexperience. This immigration thing is a nightmare for him. He is in the position of having been foursquare on one side, and now a restrictionist. Mark it is hard to say that i was part of the gang of eight fighting for Immigration Reform and now saying that i give up. John i couldnt get it done, now it cant be done. Mark his past positions in florida, congress, and new stuff that comes up, he has been through tons of scrutiny, but he is about to get more scrutiny. This dreamer thing, did he plan that . Did he spit it out on the fly . Bush allies are watching what is happening and saying that it is all starting, the scrutiny is starting, but he is opening up a lot of problems down the road. John paul singer made an argument that everybody in the establishment who likes rubio is making, rubio is the only one who can navigate the primary and win an election. You start running a race from the immigration position, you get in a position where you cant win the general election. Mark the great thing for trump, he doesnt have any fatcat donors. His Opposition Research can cherry pick anyone who is given any money to rubio. Yesterday, he wouldnt say why he thought that paul singer was going to explode in rubios face. Today was his beginning of making paul singer the poster child. John there are lot of liberal positions. Bush is in New Hampshire today. One thing he is trying to fix is his debating skills ahead of the fox debate next week in milwaukee. Here is what he said about the advice that he has been getting. You hired this Media Consultant to help you with the debates . I had one meeting with the guy. What is he telling you . He is telling me to be me, own what i believe. You need a consultant to tell you that . Yeah, its amazing. [laughter] probably not. I have to untrain myself to answer questions that are asked. You should ignore the questions . You have to pivot towards what you want to say. And learn to interrupt in a way that doesnt sound like you are oppressively rude. You have to garner the space, talk about what is important, and i will do that. Whether i have a consultant or not. It is not relevant now. John bush has brought in a Media Consultant, a debate prep guy, famous mysterious, known , throughout the party, to give him advice that he needs to be himself. Finally at long last finally hit rock bottom. Mark the drudge report saying that bush was declining into oblivion. I believe he can come back. I really do. His performance is uneven. He did a call with donors this afternoon and said youve nervous nellys, calmed down. I will be great in the debate. Stop reading the clips. On his great moments, hes great. But the problem is that he doesnt have that much of a margin of error. He has to make the soundbites of the day good soundbites, and that was cringe worthy. John hes walking across hot coals, the other day he was eating nails before breakfast, that is an abomination. Stop saying i need someone else to tell me to be myself and laughing about it. That is the kind of thing that looks like desperation, indiscriminate flailing, not a good look for a candidate, never. If you look at desperate, you are on the negative reinforcement. Mark if bush has a great debate and marco rubio makes a mistake, it reverses right back around. John its not that he cant save his campaign in theory. These months of watching his performance skills go from bad to worse suggests there is no reason to think he will emerge as a new person, as a new jeb. Why would one believe that . Mark he has flashes of intensity. Again, just to be clear, from monday in florida to sell hampshire hes having a lot of , good moments. That is not the sound bite you want to leave behind. Coming up we unravel the mystery , of ben carsons general election strength. The famed republican lawyer at the center of the fight over debates, the honorable ben ginsburg joins us. We are back in just 60 seconds. John the new wbur survey today. Donald trump and ben carson are predictably at the very top. Ook at the next tier rubio, kasich, bush, christie, what does that tell us about where things are headed in the race in the Granite State . Mark if trump is really at that 5, and six, 3, 4, are backed up, but six is not that far from one. It doesnt lead us to the rubio it does lead us to the rubio scenario we talked about. If you dont think trump or carson will be the nominee, the biggest fight is who is the top establishment finisher and iowa. In iowa. From that jumble of four, that top establishment finisher in iowa should get the boost. John hes not broken away from the rest of the establishment figures. John kasich is still right there with rubio, all within the margin of error of each other. You have got two guys tied for first, and four guys tied for second. Mark there was an volatility for years ago. Rubio, cruz, getting bumps at nationally. They are not vaulting over ted cruz, carson, and trump. The establishment candidates are splitting the establishment vote but part of it is that rubio has , one debates, Chris Christie strong performance, none of them are really busting out. John the New Hampshire poll basically mirrors the poll we will talk about in a second. The Quinnipiac National poll. With the exception of john kasich in ted cruz, everybody else is in the same place. Usually we see more variance. Both with the iowa polls, New Hampshire polls, and national polls. Right now there is a lot of weird consistency between the national numbers, iowa numbers, and New Hampshire numbers. It is striking to me, not like any cycle i have ever covered. Mark carson has no natural constituency or time in the ground, but thats what hes doing. Polls are like slices of pizza, you cant have too many. This one also shows carson and trump tied for first with rubio in third. The most interesting it are the general head to head election matchups among the general election electorate. When faced with Hillary Clinton, carson is ahead 50 to 40 against Hillary Clinton. That is the largest lead that any republican candidate has had. Other surveys have shown carson the strongest against clinton. What is up with that . John the extent that ben carson has support that is durable, a lot is based on his character, or maybe his actual character, people think of him as a modest, humble guy, great accomplishments. Is soft spoken, not your average politician. Hillary clinton seems like none of those things. The character contrast is what is going on there. I think that is what is fueling his appeal. He is not a policy candidate. He is a character candidate. Mark i am amazed how the people not working for ben carson thinks he can be the nominee. Im not sure that his head to head strength will sustain him. I cant fully explain it. I can say that People Better stop thinking that he cannot be the nominee. Of the 50 , i dont know that many know who ben carson is. Maybe they just like him. That kind of general election strength undermines the argument that his detractors are making that he could not be a plausible general election candidate or president. John he has not been vetted really very fully partly because of this elite tendency to write him off. So most people dont associate carson with the things that his supporters do, america is nazi germany under obama, a lot of people who support him think that is that nice africanamerican man with a great biography, top of his field that is all they know. The press is failing to tell the story of ben carson. The democrats would tell you that all republican nominees are equally conservative. The fact is they are not. Some of them have more moderate positions than you think. John they would never say some of the things that ben carson has said about barack obama. Mark its more moderate positions, and potentially therefore more electable, and political skill. Carson will be tested just as rubio is being tested now, but he seems to float above it even more than rubio. John the level of inflammatoryness of the rhetoric. To me, if i were a republican becomewhen those things public and wellknown, problematic in a general election. The vote tallies are in. Here is a quick recap of the highlights. In ohio, the measure to legalize marijuana, failed. Thatston ordinance prohibited discrimination failed. The most consequential for 2016, the governors race in milwaukee was won by matt bevin. Some say that race could foreshadow antigovernment, antiestablishment, antiobama sentiments in the president ial race. Other people say, there was an election yesterday, really . You, my question for should democrats be worried about any of those races or just write it off and move on . Mark reports of the demise of the Republican Party are overstated. They control the house, senate, and dominate the governorships. They dominate the state legislatures. Kentucky has been a place where democrats have held the governors mansion, and they lost this one, not based on outside factors. They lost it on the fact that connectedased to president obama. John the soothing thing for democrats will be that the electorate that turns out in 2015 in kentucky and other places looks more like the electorate that turns out in 2014 dan the one that will turn out in 2016. Nonetheless, it tells you something, that there is some salience to this antiobama idea. Mark republicans in the age of obama have been creamed on the mechanics of elections. In kentucky in particular, the republican governor of came into this race late. Some outside groups showed the power of organization, technology, of figuring out how to spend money the right way to win an upset based on the polls. That is something the republicans must have if they will compete in 2016. When we come back, the future of the republican debates with the man who found himself now in the middle of things, ben ginsburg will join us after this word from our sponsors. John our guest tonight joins us from our washington bureau. Ben ginsberg is an advisor on everything. He has been involved with every president ial campaign for a long time. For several days he has been working closely with all the republican president ial campaigns that have been unhappy with the way that the date has debates have been structured. He drafted some new language they will be sending to Television Networks sponsoring those debates in the weeks and months ahead. Talk us through how we went from the letter you drafted over the weekend to the letter that is about to be sent out why the republican campaigns. Go. Well, the whole meeting over the weekend was because the campaigns were not happy with the way the debates were being held. They wanted more transparency, accountability. It was a meeting of all the campaigns. It was incredibly collegial and productive. There were some common gripes. The letter that went out originally was sort of my summation, not signed off on by any campaign. It dealt with every issue you have ever seen in a debate in about the last four cycles. Not unsurprisingly, different campaigns have different parts they wanted in. The central premise of the letter, the meeting, was that the campaigns needed to be involved themselves in negotiating the debates. They are the ones who needed to be able to talk to the media sponsors, and that is what has been accomplished. Mark theres lots of logistics about the size of the green rooms, and the length of the debates, but within the four walls of the editorial control, who the questioners are and what kinds of questions they asked, do any of the campaigns want to impinge on that . Or do they think that belongs to the news organizations or sponsors . They recognize the final decision belongs to the news of sponsors, but the debates are a time for candidates to be able to talk about the substantive issues and to give their vision. If the moderates that the networks choose engage in a lot of gotcha questions, then the candidates dont have their time to talk about substance and vision. So what this arrangement does is that it makes clear that the candidates are not committed to coming to all the subsequently scheduled debates. That they want to hear from the networks about exactly what is going to go into those debates, and they will make a decision after some negotiations with the people who put on the debates. John this new letter of yours takes out the requests that asks the networks to not ask a certain things, not do this or do that, right . That is some stuff that has changed from the earlier version of the letter. Be part and that will of the negotiations, like raising hands per there has been a provision that sort of requests or mandates that then the news organizations dont do hand raising questions. Why . You dont want them to look like marionettes and have to answer superficial questions with yes or no. The questions that might come up are all legitimate questions, but you have to give a candidate a chance to give his or her position on it and not just ask for a reflexive raising of hands. Mark raise your hand if you think the current schedule will go forward as it is. More or less, sure. Mark you didnt raise your hand. You dont like those questions either. Trump said he will negotiate directly. Do expect all the campaigns to negotiate directly. If so, is it possible to get agreement on anything with 10 or so competing views . Yeah, i think it is. That is the way it has been done in the last two cycles, where each of the campaigns would have conversations with the sponsors. There has been a common call, which there wasnt this year, so all the campaigns got all the same information. The campaigns felt there was a need to have that earlier in the process. John dont go anywhere. Hold on we will continue the one second. Debate about debates when we come back. Mark were back with ben ginsberg, who has been working with republican campaigns. Im sorry we had to cut you off to go to break. You have donald trump saying he is going to negotiate directly. With the rnc having a diminished role, how do you think things will proceed forward . Ben as they have in past cycles. The campaigns themselves directly interact with the media sponsors in the past. What we saw in the meeting on sunday night, the campaigns agreed on a very large number of items that ought to be included in the debate and the negotiations for the part they disagree with, i suspect they will be resolved. John i know you worked with a group that put forward proposals, suggestions, recommendations on how president of debates in the fall should be different. Talk about what those recommendations are briefly and whether there is a chance those things could actually happen. Ben the recommendations all go to making the debates better a better experience for the voters. There are recommendations that would include a much greater use of social media, and open feed an open feed for everyone to use. Suggestions about format, to make it a Better Exchange between the candidates. There are suggestions on ways to broaden the base of who can be a moderator, so there is more diversity in who the moderators are. What it is designed to do is to provide a better viewing experience for more people to get involved in the process. As to whether there is a chance of them being adopted, you know, whoever the two candidates are the two nominees will be the ones to determine the format they wish to engage in. Mark the commission on president ial debates has had a stranglehold on this process. Most of the ideas you listed are things i have heard them talk about. How have they received this set of recommendations . Ben i think they have read them, discussions are ongoing. We are happy to explain, and have explained, what we mean by them. It would be terrific if they adopted a whole bunch of them. John are you guys doing work on this . To try to nudge this forward and make it a more viable option that these debates are substantially different . Ben we have occasional conversations with people who would be involved in the process, social Media Companies who might be able to provide some impact. But no, they are a great set of ideas we hope people will take up in the spring. Mark how important are debates . Are they as important as all of the hubbub suggests . Ben the substance of the debates can be very important. What is unfortunate about what we have been engaging in has been sort of the process of the debates. The reason the conversation about the process came up is that the process that was in place was taking away from the substance of the debates. Hopefully, this conversation about the details of the green rooms and things like that will fade away, we will have good debates, we will know what the rules are well in advance of the debates so the candidates can concentrate on what they say, responding to questions, putting forward their vision, and not worrying about the debate going three hours without airconditioning. Mark we look forward to staying in touch with you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, guys. What do you think will happen . John i think the whole thing is going to generate into a degenerate into a freeforall. We will have debates that are scheduled. The format and some of these campaigns think the liberal bias is the problem. Some of them will credit press that case pretty hard. Mark my conversation about the republican field with our next guest, next. You tell me. [laughter] john the oldest rule in political journalism. When you run into James Carville, you grab him for an interview. I had my iphone with me yesterday. James and i had a chat on camera. First, what he thinks is going on with bush. James i used to say it was kind of like a vet trying to get a pill down a dogs throat. Focus groups do not even want to hear from him right now. Im not sure theyre even listening to him. He is frustrated, like anybody would be. He says he is frustrated and he is not trying to hide it. He feels like he has thought about this and he cannot believe, you know, trump and all these people are running ahead of him. It does not make sense. He grew up in an orderly political process. It is all turned upside down now. Like, is thiso is really happening to me . Mark i think james has that one nailed down. His wife has been Long Associated with the bush family. I think he has insights into just how the world has turned upside down. John he is one of the rare democrats who has a minor in bushology, if not a major. Interesting to hear a little sympathy. James is normally howling and raging, like he does. He sounded a little sympathetic to jeb. Mark he spent time on the road with jeb and that sympathy thing is key. Jeb is a flesh and blood human being with a lot of strength. Too many people do not know him and too many people only think of him as another bush. All right then there is marco , rubio. I asked James Carville if the candidate that everybody is buzzing about is really worth all the buzz . James he is the only republican candidate who could get more than 45 of the vote. The only republican candidate who could get more than 45 of the vote . James yes. He does not have the same negatives. I do not think he will win, but he could get over 45. Mark the only rational thing for the Republican Party to do at this point is to nominate marco rubio . Thats it. What are his strengths. He does not have the same negatives. I do not think he will win, but he could get over 45. Mark you rule out any republican winning a general election except for marco rubio . James unless romney got in or something. Mark in elite political circles, a lot of talk about romney. On rubio, james taps into what elite republicans are saying right now. Rubio has flaws, rubio is not perfect, but he seems to be the one who could win a general election. John i saw james in l. A. Couple of weeks ago. He was basically saying that these elections are serious, republicans have a lot more at stake. He shares the assessment that if the party loses, it could break up into little pieces because it is in a state of crisis. If it doesnt win this election, it could be real trouble. Mark the conversation inevitably turned to sir donald trump. I asked James Carville what surprises him most about the trump phenomenon. James the way they pick their president ial candidates, it has been the single most predictable event in a democracy around the world. And this is anything but predictable. Anybody who has studied republican president ial politics, this is almost a jawdropping event in history. Million,ive you 30 what would you spend it on . James just wait on gravity. That is about all you can do. I would just go to the conservative base and just relentlessly go after him. From talk radio, fox, to anything i could. I would relentlessly stay on him. He is not susceptible to being knocked out with a single bullet. Mark you can pound on trump, but you have to wait for it to happen eventually. John James Carville, as smart and aggressive as he is, as unafraid of trashing someone as he is, when he says, all you can do is wait for gravity, that is a very passive response and one that reflects a widespread befuddlement, the conundrum that is donald j. Trump. Mark our thanks to that man, James Carville. Coming up, our conversation with david holbrook, son of richard holbrooke. About the brandnew hbo documentary about his father, the ambassador, a giant of american diplomacy. We will be back in 60 seconds with that. John this week, the new documentary the diplomat debuted on hbo. It shows the legacy of Ambassador Richard holbrooke. It was written and directed by his son, david. He talks about why he made the film and what his father taught him even after he passed away. Mark your dad was your dad. A guy who had a huge public profile. What did you learn about your dad that you did not know before . David i learned something about myself as well. You cannot do it all. You try to be a great diplomat, father, husband, and something had to give. For me, it was understanding how impossibly hard diplomacy is. I read the articles, i read his book. You realize the 360 degree complications coming at you when you try to broker a deal. Its impossible. John were there things that you learned about him that you did not know . David it was how persistent he was. He just was not going to give up. I knew that to a point, but again it is Broad Strokes versus details. That is when it got exciting. When you saw how it worked, it was remarkable. The pressures on him in afghanistan, pakistan, he had this monster problem behind him, the people he was working for. That was impossible. John we joked about how your dad was called largerthanlife. I am fascinated by people who are larger than life and what factors contribute to them being termed that by everyone. In his case, everybody. What emanated from him . What was of personality, drive, what was it . David a certain outrageousness. We have a great line from joe klein where he said, did you see what holbrooke said . He was 33 years old, how could he have done anything like that . That is a good question, but he had size. It was not just physical size. It was this thing, you walked into a room, and he would be paid attention to. I think he had a certain intuition with people to understand the dynamic of a room. To understand where peace was going to be negotiated, where was the power, and he gravitated to it quickly. Mark lets play a clip from the movie. I remember at one point, he was worried whether he had the right fortitude and he came up to him, question is, Richard Charles albert holbrooke, do you have balls to finish this deal . I was standing there and i looked over at dick and he did not answer. Boy, did he take it on board. John the dayton accords were a huge accomplishment for your father. Bringing an end to the bosnia war. I never heard anyone question whether your father had sufficient balls for anything, but i have heard people question whether or not he had tact. Both of those are necessary for a diplomat. How did your father balance those . David milosevic is worried whether my father is going to see this through. Top point in the negotiation, and give the Clinton Administration a lot of credit. It was the year before an election. He had to figure that out. We considered calling the film undiplomatic. That is what he was. He was not your typical diplomat in a variety of ways. Ultimately, that is what he wanted to do and that sense of intelligence, vision, and being able to look far down the line but knowing how to get there. To have a vision and be able to execute was very unusual. Mark he was brought into the obama administration, worked with secretary clinton. I think it is fair to say that he had a better relationship with her than he did the white house. How did he feel about that . Did he give up in trying to win the white house over . Was a struggling until the end . David to the very end. The day he collapsed, he had a meeting with David Axelrod in the white house. He was going to say that i have a vision to get us out of afghanistan. I know that did not go well. He was desperate to try to fix this and he knew he had a problem with the president , but he was not going to give up. That is something i really admire about him. He always believed until the end, he could make it work. Mark you are a great and experienced documentary filmmaker. How does this film differ . David i am not objective, not for a second. I am his son. However, i had access to people that other people would not have had. That emotional journey, the personal part of it, you balance the personal and political with the historical and emotional. One of the lessons ive taken away, and you guys are busy guys, it is tricky to balance it all. The idea of understanding the other parts of the public figure is really important. The other thing i think people , who talk to me, particularly Hillary Clinton, you do not see a side of her like that. She liked him, she is talking to his son, my son came to the interview. There is a warmth, a different side of her. I think that happened time and again. I think other people who might hold back. In the end, i was wanted to make my story of his life. I always told our team in the editing room that this has to be loving, but it has to be honest. A lot of people said that it is kind of a warts and all picture. He was a complicated man and a complicated father, but i felt i could tell a more 360 degree version of his story than anybody else. John the diplomat debuted this weekend on hbo. You can catch it on demand or hbo go anytime. Our thanks to david holbrooke. We will be right back with your 24Hour Campaign forecast. Mark tomorrow is another busy day out there in election land. Lets go live for a 24 Hour Campaign forecast. Alex do we have a pleasant day , coming up tomorrow . I am sure of it. New hampshire, that is. We are tracking a lot of activity across New Hampshire, the Granite State. Carly fiorina, marco rubio, and bernie sanders, all getting their names on the ballot tomorrow. Easy breezy. Except for maybe sanders, the independent transitioning to the democratic ballot. We are bracing for potential ballot headwinds. Jeb bush also lingering in the area as well, hunkering down at a Senior Center before moving over to a medical business. Taking our hidef radar coast to coast. A rare fund raising convergence. Tomorrow, shaping up to be a rob reiner classic. Hillary with an appearance on jimmy kimmel. No advisories just yet. That is it for me. Of er, like a number umbrella we have got you , covered. Mark some john that guy is a weirdo. I like him. Mark some have been skittish about associating with hollywood celebrities. Hillary seems to be embracing it. John i think she is so happy to be back in the warm embrace of her old friends. Mark john kerry did some hollywood stuff and the republicans pounded him. Saying hollywood liberal elite. Those days seem to be on hold. Second straight day we will have rubio and bush in New Hampshire. Rubio picked up a Third Straight senate endorsement. One every day for the last three days from his fellow senators. What do you think jeb bush needs to do . John jeb bush has to stop giving soundbites like the one he gave to john carl today. To me, it is hard for bush to change the dynamic because there are so many bush supporters who do not want him to go negative on rubio. Everybody else is going negative. I think jeb bush has to find his stride and let other people do the dirty work. Mark dont go after other people, just talk about yourself. He said that he will focus on talking about americas economy in the next debate. John we are on the tube for an hour twice a day at 5 00 and 8 00. Mark until then, thank you for watching. We will see you. Sayonara. He worked alongside steve jobs and became known as the godfather of the ipod. Apple, thenecade at started a company of his own, where he promised to invent every unloved product in the home. Snapped it up for three point 3. 2 billion. Tony fadell
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