Transcripts For BLOOMBERG Charlie Rose 20170821

Clear during tuesdays explosive press conference. President trump mr. Bannon came on very late. You know that. I went through 17 senators and governors and i won all the primaries. Mr. Bannon came on much later than that. He was one of the first step members hired and played a key role in the controversial travel ban. Inauguration, he described himself as part of a new political order. If you think they are going to give you your country back without a fight, you are sadly mistaken. Every day, it is going to be a fight. His prior work at breitbart rod made him a lightning for criticism. President trump it will be a great wall. In 2015, bannon interviewed mr. Trump about immigration and described himself as having more hardline views. Unafraid to feud with other white house officials, particularly the president s soninlaw, Jared Kushner, gary cohn, and h. R. Mcmaster. Just this week, bannon seemed to undermine Trump Administration Foreign Policy when he said an interview there is no military solution to north korea. More arrests were made today to jeers from onlookers. In all, four suspects have been detained following the twin vehicle attacks. One on a busy barcelona street, the second 75 miles south in the beach town. The Police Document reveals young faces of those believed to be behind these attacks and on the run. One is to 17 years old. Sources tell cbs news the terrorists were planning a larger attack, possibly a vehicle bomb using gas canisters, all being constructed in a houston on the street. The house exploded wednesday. It was leveled. The explosions were so strong this neighbor showed us how it broke the glass in her window. Spanish police theorize after the explosives prematurely ignited, the terrorists went to plan b. The next day, a van was driven down the touristbacked road in barcelona swerving to hit as many people as possible. Eight hours later, terrorists in another car rammed into more pedestrians. One woman died in the attack. Going up and down the street ranting and raving. He took this cellphone video when he saw one of the five terrorists taunting officers. It was like watching one of them horror films. Away to her new the scene told us he thought a waiter near the scene told us he saw terrorists wearing what looked like explosive belts. Fake butt were did manage to instill fear. Early on, bannon faced problems with the president when he appeared on Time Magazine. The worst thing you can do if you are a white house staffer. He participated in the book the devils bargain. The president was unhappy about that. He felt ban was taking too much credit for his victory. As you know, this president does not like to be outshone. This president does not like other people crowding his spotlight. The book that came out last , on theom josh green cover shown steve bannon and President Trump as equals. And charlie, we know the president saw that book and he did not like it. Charlie turning to the attack in barcelona, we talk to fran townsend. If all you need is to grab an everyday item like a car or knife and launch an attack, block into an attack in start stabbing people, or you can take a car on London Bridge or in barcelona and mow down civilians, it is very difficult to stop. You rely on intelligence to try to catch the person. For an understanding of steve bannon and his relationship to President Trump, we talked with joshua green. His book is the devils bargain. Is very good at messaging, stoking the worries and fears of the electorate. Galvanizing a certain kind of dispossessed voter who has not felt like they had a place in american politics for the last 10 or 20 years. That is a real talent. I think that helped get donald trump elected. But you need an entirely different set of skills when you wind up in the white house. Charlie the departure of steve bannon and the terrorist attack in spain when we continue. Charlie steve bannon, the controversial chief strategist for President Trump, is leaving the white house. That announcement came this afternoon in a statement from Sarah Huckabee sanders. She characterized his departure as a mutual decision made between bannon and the president s chief of staff, general john kelly. Some have suggested general kelly has had been in his sights since he came to the white house a month ago. It has also been reported President Trump had soured on. Is chief strategist his the fourth top advisor to the president to leave the administration and the last month. Joining me from washington Ashley Parker, who is a White House Reporter for the Washington Post and has been reporting on this story. Jump . Pushed or did he i think he was definitely pushed. But i will say he is somewhat comfortable with that. I dont think this would have been his choice. But in the past several days, he had sort of resign himself to any fate team met. Into apushed, but pushed potentially very soft landing pad. Charlie what is the soft landing . When option we are hearing one option we are hearing is it is likely he will go back to Breitbart News that he was chairman of before, and he will go there and be this pirate captain he was. But perhaps even more invigorated, waging war, not necessarily against the president , but around a lot of the people surrounding the president in the west wing. Democrats, globalists. And the president if he thinks the president is not keeping his Campaign Promises on issues important to him like trade and immigration. He has very deeppocketed beneficiaries in the form of the mercers. There is a chance there might be a new Media Venture with them. Charlie who are the mercers . Wealthy republican donors, a father and daughter. They have funded a lot of bannon s activities in the past. During the campaign, they helped push bannon on trump to bring him in. They are sort of his patrons and seem likely to support them in future endeavors. Charlie what is the risk for the president . The risk is twofold. The risk for the president is you have bannon on the outside captainis feisty pirate now attacking the white house from the outside. He will be more reluctant to attack the president , but attacking people around the president , attacking parts of the president s agenda if he does not think it goes far enough is a possible problem for the president specifically. And a problem for some of the west wingers who pushed him out is, we know the president , no one is ever actually out. The president may be under general kellys tutelage now, but at some point, the president and bannon will Start Talking on the phone. The president will be calling him late at night and bannon will still have the president s by but now the unencumbered west wing politics and white house bureaucracy and feel even more emboldened to push the president s more nationalist, populist impulses. Charlie lets review why he might have been pushed by general kelly. President and general kelly were not happy about leaks. That is one thing. He seemed to shoulder some of the blame for the leaks. Number two, there was this conflict he had with h. R. Mcmaster. Breitbart had been aggressive in terms of h. R. Mcmaster. Number three, the fallout from charlottesville might have engulfed him in some way. Are there other factors that might have led to his departure . Absolutely. One factor is that even though this was a general kelly move and a sign of him asserting his power and the power he really does have in the west wing now to bring order, is nothing happens in the white house the president does not sign off on. The president had grown increasingly frustrated with bannon because he thought bannon s ego was getting too big and he seemed to be taking credit for what the president viewed as his own accomplishments. Early on, bannon faced some trouble with the president when he appeared on the cover of Time Magazine. And then he dissipated in this book. The president was unhappy about that. He felt bannon was taking too much credit for his electoral victory. This is a president who understands media and images just about better than anybody. One of the things that bothered him was the cover image of him and his strategist sharing equal billing. Charlie some people called bannon the president or alternative president. Earlier, there was a series of saturday night live asts that had bannon president and the president at a toy desk. Charlie how does steve bannon feel about the president . What do we know about how he feels about the president that has not been expressed publicly . That is a very good question. I think he saw the president and white house as a vehicle for him achieving his own nationalist, populist goals he had been pushing for quite some time outside of the white house. I think he saw the president as an imperfect vehicle for that. And he understood the president can be swayed by the person he spoke to last or by competing factions and impulses which is one of the reasons why bannon was at war with colleagues in the west wing who he felt represented a contrary point. The democratic or globalist worldview. He also recognized in the president something of a kindred spirit. There are a few issues the president has been consistent on , not just in his campaign, but dating back decades. Those are some of the same things bannon has championed. Trade, immigration, and a wariness of sending young men and women overseas to fight in wars. Charlie could the president have won without steve bannon . That is also a good question. Im hesitant to answer one way or another. But i will say even people have saidd on steve bannon have he is a wartime consiglio area. He understands politics. He understands the president space. He understands how to manage the president. He was the person who helped write the ship during tough moments, including the access Hollywood Video during the campaign. He certainly played a big stabilizing role. What made a significant part of the departure was the interview . It did not help. My understanding was general kelly came with no preconceived notions. He had no personal animus against steve bannon and he approached it by doing an overview of everyones role, including asking a lot of questions about steve bannon. One of the things general kelly was brought in to do was not manage the president but create order within the west wing, to manage the staff, to put processes in place. That means nobody speaking outside of their lane. Nobody going rogue in an interview where they attack their west wing colleagues. This was a classic example of steve bannon doing something the new chief of staff had explicitly for bid stuff from doing. This isalso remind you exactly what Anthony Scaramucci did that got him fired by general kelly. The language was more colorful but it was the same behavior. People who had fights at one time or another with him . You can 100 say that. Jared kushner had been one of the people who turned on bannon very early and lost the initial fight to push him out. The president was not ready to do it then. There are a lot of people who dislike steve bannon is her because he deliberately waged war against them in the media, someone like Jared Kushner or h. R. Mcmaster, or other people who thought he was a distracting presence in the west wing. That is another thing that hurt him. He did not have a time of allies. When the new chief of staff came in and started asking questions about him, he did not have as many defenders as he might have needed. Charlie the ultimate question is whether this will help or hurt the president with his base. That seems to be where he is going in moments of crisis. The president is always focused on his base, even in moments where you think it might make sense for him to move to the middle or rally the nation to come together. He does go back to his base. It is an interesting question. I dont know how many people in his base will desert him simply inause steve bannon is gone, the same way im skeptical of how many people vote for a politician because they got the endorsement of someone else. Axisl say if bannons allows the president to be drawn further to the left or the middle or to abandon some of his Campaign Promises, i certainly think that will hurt him with his base and be magnified because he will now have steve bannon on the outside mobilizing his media operation against anything he considers going squishy on his Campaign Promises. Charlie Ashley Parker of the Washington Post. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Charlie this week, the continuing drama of the Trump Administration. Steve bannon is out as the president s chief political advisor. Administration was pulled off topic by the fallout from charlottesville. President trumps comments put him at odds with many americans. Joining me in washington with more on this is mike allen, the editor of the axiom newsletter. Tell me about steve bannon. What is the latest we know about his survival . He is not surviving. The president decided he will go , the highest profile firing from this white house. Steve bannon is telling colleagues he resigned on august 7, but to be effective a week later. That would coincide with the oneyear anniversary of him coming into the trump campaign. The leading offenses, the reason he ran afoul of the president , were leaking, which is ironic in this white house. Charlie, you know how everyone much everyone weeks, including the president. But the president believed steve bannon was leaking on west wing colleagues, perhaps including his soninlaw Jared Kushner. That was one thing the president has been telling people around the west wing. The second thing and probably as youping point was, know, this president does not like to be outshone. This president does not like other people crowding his spotlight. The book that came out last green, the great book, on the cover showing steve bannon and President Trump as equals. We know the president saw that book and did not like it. One of the reasons steve bannon got in the doghouse before was when he was on the cover of Time Magazine as the second most powerful man in the world. A dangerous thing to be called around President Trump. Charlie i would add to that his conflict with h. R. Mcmaster. Right. There have been a barrage of negative stories about the president S National Security adviser, h. R. Mcmaster. The president the other day came out and spoke in public about hiS National Security adviser saying he supported him despite these stories appearing, notably on Breitbart News, which is where steve bannon was the boss before he went into the campaign. Of course, he was a suspect in those leaks. More broadly in this campaign against the National Security adviser. For then ominous sign America First wing, the nationalist wing of the white house, when at his press conference the other day President Trump said we will see what happens with mr. Bannon. Charlie what is the political fallout of this . Who will be pleased by this departure and who will be upset . The people who will be upset are the people who are the trump first America First people. The people who were officials and architects of that coalition, the very unusual Trump Coalition that gave him the surprise victory, very focused on rust belt, workingclass americans. The America First idea, the hard line on immigration. All of that was bannons side of the house. Others in the white house will point out the president was talking about those ideas before steve bannon came into the white house. It was steve bannon who realized you could not win with that coalition, figured out the math, and the states where that could work. That takes nothing away from what President Trump did, but he just does not want to give credit on that. Over these seven months, you and i have debated the question that in this white house, how much method is there to the madness . How much of a plan is there behind what has been done . Degree therethe has been a plan, a lot of it was steve bannon. Now that changes rapidly. As we look ahead to labor day, congress returning the day after labor day, this is a real chance for a reset by the president. His new chief of staff, general john kelly, a retired fourstar marine who has been trying to impose marine discipline on the white house, trying to get it so the oval office is no longer a that therepes game, is more discipline and what the president sees, what he told, who sees him, what goes on in the white house, the phone calls. General kelly has been trying to build guardrails around all of that. There is one thing missing from that plan. Reviewers will know what it is. The president of the United States is missing from that plan. There is no indication after three weeks of general kelly in the white house that the president is going to be fenced in by him. All we have to do is look at the tweets this week going after more tweets going after republican senators than democrats. More tweets defending confederate memorials at a time when that is not going to be a healing message. The president taking a press conference that was supposed to be about infrastructure, a part of his planned that has a prayer of getting democratic support, and instead using that to reignite the argument about both sides in the charlottesville, virginia, tragedy. And the president introducing the term altleft. General kelly may have a system in place. Now he has Steve Bannons head on a platter. Use one of the people most happy about this. Steve bannon was the most likely to color outside the lines of the new system. Here is no indication yet has the president buying into that program. Charlie let me talk about the president s support today in america. Everyone talks about his base. How large is the base . Is there some even those in erosion of the base at all . His own popularity ratings are in the 30s. He seems to be dependent on maintaining his support within the base. He fires one of the principal people, if he was fired rather than resigned, that was the link to his base. That is right. That is what steve bannon has had to hold over him. That was one of the factors. Planof the bannon survival was he did hold the heartbeat of that trump base. And the flipside is he is the one person who could do real harm on the outside. He could go back to Breitbart News and go after this white house. The reporting by Jonathan Swann indicates that is not the case. I would look for steve bannon to be supportive of the president on the outside, perhaps even working on his midterm strategy for 2018, his reelection strategy for 2020. To get there, the president decided to make this radical change. Charlie have you seen any diminution in leaking from the white house . Of course not, charlie. You know that. President talks to his longtime friends and we hear what they are talking about. We have extremely accurate leaks. This will do nothing to change that. General kelly has tried to clamp down on the machinery at the white house. But there are plenty of people who still have motive to talk to reporters. They want to reflect their worldview. And there are plenty of people there who feel insecure about their own position who will continue to talk about that. We will stillu have plenty of good information about what is going on. I mentioned this opportunity for a reset. Charlie, this is a big moment for the president. He has not taken any of the ones in the past after he became officially the nominee, he could have behaved more like an establishment republican for more like you would expect a nominee to behave. Heer he won the election, might have decided as president elect to change his style. He might have decided to change his style. For the next day, he is at the c. I. A. In front of the stars honoring lost c. I. A. Agents talking about reelection victory. None of the past resets have taken. We are in 210some days. Will he take the new chance at labor day to focus on tax reform, which is supposed to be message one . And will he adapt a little to the system general kelly is imposing . Charlie general mattis, sick. Charlie that will be the beginning of even more difficult times for the president. Charlie, perfectly put. There is a real one person bought me that one top staff person, one top cabinet member goes, and there could be a run exit exodus, if one person decides to go. Several officials you mentioned, including the secretary of defense, including advisor,mic gary cohn, other officials, those are all people that we have referred to as the committee to save america. The committee to save america makingple who are personal sacrifices because they think it is important to be there at this moment, and who in the end are going to be there for the country. He can count Republican Leaders in this. It is people who thought they needed to be there in order to ensure that the country sort of stage within the way it needs to be end. If they decide they need to go, then you are right. This administration will look very different both to people the president will desperately need on the hill and to others of their colleagues in the west wing. Decision the president has to make about the reset. Does he continue to watch trump be trump . Heres not like to be bullied into things. Pelosiu have nancy calling for him to be fired, that could give job security. The president decided this is something he is going to give general kelly. The president decided to go. Long with that part of his showing respect to general kelly and buying himself time on some changes he does not want to make. Charlie thank you so much for this conversation. Charlie, thank you for a great conversation in historic times. We turn now to another terror attack in europe. At least 14 have died and more than 100 were injured in a pair of attacks thursday through the spanish cities of barcelona. Dead, fourts detained, and one remains at large. The attacks are part of a larger hope toere terrorists inflict heavy casualties by driving vehicles into crowds. We are joined now by our guest. She is a contributor to cbs news. What is the significance of this . Risk here isk the that we say this is just one in a series of these the hick you are attacks. Vehicular attacks. They have been more than a halfdozen over the last year. This barcelona attack was a little bit different. There was the gas explosion the day before, and clearly, what they were planning to do is put the gas canister closes into the truck and create a car bomb. When that prematurely went off, they changed the plan and went for this running attack. But that was not all, right . Then we see 80 miles or so south of barcelona, there is this next car ramming. In thests are killed shoot up your is better plan. They executed it poorly. Ofgives all the hallmarks one of these bigger, more spectacular attacks that isis would like to pull off. Charlie i noticed isis took credit. Guest that is right. They were able to do that because they understood the sort of attack plan and parameters. Seestors now are looking to investigators now are looking to see it they can establish contacts inside and outside of spain. Between 2013 and 2016, west point study this, the spanish have arrested 178 islamic extremists. The other 40 are spaniards. This is a problem the spanish authorities have been sort of very aware of and working against for some time. Charlie who is guest this is the moroccan individual who rented the car, and then there is his brother who they are still looking for. They believe the brother is the driver. The manhunt continues. This continues to be ongoing. Charlie when we think about isis, and as they are fighting and raqqa, having already lost , that what we will witness is these kind of attacks in europe and the United States. Guest thats right. We have always worried that the fires in those areas would bleed out and go into western europe. The interesting thing about screen is they are particularly vulnerable to those extremists coming in from north africa. There is a pipeline with a cross from north africa, morocco, and from the mali extremists fight into your. Many pass through spain. We have a group that is imposing a threat. Charlie when they capture a terrorist like this and began a interrogation, when are they able to lead to other activities, either because the search where they live or they realize there is a number of ways they get this information. Pieces of paper and information on the person. Their cell phones, computers, social media. All of those connections provide a web to investigators who leverage those in terms of an interrogation. We have to be suspicious that perhaps one of the ways the spanish authorities were able to cell, 80 miles south, was because of all the information they gathered, and perhaps the cooperation really did get people alive in these operations. They have four in custody that can provide lead information. Charlie any indication that an attack like this was coming . Guest not clear. There were some reports that cia havether authorities may had general warnings. There is no indication of a specific warning. It may be that other Intelligence Services had had some indications that a plot may be afoot. We have seen those warnings before, particularly in the summer. People are traveling. Al qaeda wants to target these sorts of areas. It is possible they had some indication. Onrlie because of security airplanes had become much tougher, so they turned to something much more to do detect to detect and prevent. Guest if all you need is to grab every day item, a car, a knife, and walk into a restaurant, and start having people, or you can take a car on London Bridge or a nice, or in barcelona, and lowdown civilians, it is very difficult to stop. You rely on the person, but it is hard when somebody has picked up the weapons. Charlie why has the United States how have they been successful in avoiding significant attacks like this in our cities and in our concert halls . Guest it is interesting, charlie. There is no doubt in my mind if you are prepared to label barcelona where a nongovernment actor targets a civilian population for we ought to be willing to confront the fact that when a white supremacist or neonazi does the exact same thing, that is terrorism, too. Mostly in the context of the United States. When you have these sorts of totest, you give a permit one group, and the Counter Group another permit. The police take the cautions to keep them separate, at put barricades between them, to prevent that sort of violence. Authorities intro to are going to look back at the things they could have or should have done to prevent it. Charlie it is surprisingly have not had an attack in the United States directed by people overseas . Guest yes, i think we are surprised may have not been successful. Some of that is attributed to the men and women who work every day to prevent it. Charlie successful intelligence. Guest thats right. We have invested billions of dollars to improve our collection and detection. It is a tribute to the relationship between the fed and the state and local. Oftentimes, state and local elected nypd get the first indication that something is wrong, and then working with the fed, they can detect and prevent it. Charlie what might change in the future . Are there more things that lawenforcement people can do to prevent this from happening . I have always are the primary weapon you have is intelligence,. Orewarning guest that is exactly right. Reminds us why. We are going to see more and vehicular barricades in an attempt to make this like airports, make it more difficult while we rely on intelligence to try and prevent it. Charlie there is also a terrorist cell. What is that and how does it function . Guest when we think about a cell, it is a group of people, more than one. We have heard a lot about lone individuals who see something on the internet and are inspired to act independent of the group, but when we talk about a cell, it is typically a group of people who have gathered materials, gas canisters, tried to rent a big truck. They rented two smaller trucks. Ofell has the characteristic the planning and operation, coordination of an operation that a lone wolf does not, and it allows them to inflict more damage, more harm, and they are more lethal. Charlie was the Boston Marathon a small cell or a lone wolf . Guest a small cell. You had to bang brothers who worked in concert. That is right. Charlie in terms of the support they are getting, has that dried up as they have lost the caliphate in terms of isis . Are they less able to raise the kind of financing that they wanted to . Less able to recruit as they wanted to . Or is that saw a factor they can depend on . Guest i think it has become more demand for them, but as it has become more difficult if they do not have the successes in the iraq, syria theater 2. 2, they point to things like barcelona. They will go out on some media and do it that way. They will use bitcoin. They ar adapt their methods around authority. Charlie thank you for coming. It is great to see you. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Steve bannon is one of the most divisive figures in american politics. He harbored bluecollar roots and was the driving force behind breitbart when donald trump pointed him to head his campaign in august 2016. He is credited with helping guide President Trump to victory. Joshua tells the story in his new book, called devils bargain. Walk him. This is a new review which basically i just saw in which it says it is a testament to your a that we arewining not certain which of the two figures has sold the bigger part of himself to the other. In the broader sense, they are coauthors of our tabloid conservatives. Joshua exactly right. The point of the book was to go back and answer the question that Everyone Wants to know about donald trump. He managed to get elected, and all of us in the media and washington did not see it coming . In ancovered been breitbart and this populist uprising over the last four years, and on the election morning, i spoke to bannon for a story i was doing, and it came into focus, the whole story of how these men are interwoven. In this humongous upset. Charlie tell us the story. Joshua they met in 2010. Bannon has this wild background. He was born to a bluecollar maybe family. Spent four years in the navy, and on to Goldman Sachs eventually went out to hollywood and opened a boutique investment bank, financing and getting hollywood deals. Like so many people, on the money side, he wanted to go over the creative side, and he had sublimatedalmost conservatism he had not really shown at harvard or Goldman Sachs, but once he fitted making movies, he gave full flower to that. He made a venerating documentary about Ronald Reagan that brought him into the orbit of a group of los angeles conservatives led by Andrew Breitbart, the late conservative publisher and parameter. Provocateur. He became infatuated with his ability and power to shape stories and kind of news was covered. I think the thing that bannon admired most about breitbart was that he was apprenticed with matt drudge and seemed to have an ability to see stories and shape them in the mainstream media. Who is enamored by the fascist propaganda film makers of the 1930s19 40s, was consumed with this idea if i could learn these skills, harness this power that Andrew Breitbart has, i could shape the world in a direction that will advance my political walls. Charlie which then was . Goals have political boys been the same, to push for a kind of hard right populist nationalism that is very much distinct from ordinary Orthodox Movement conservatism. Bannons critique of that kind of conservatism essentially is that it is globalist is great pejorative phrase that it serves a financial class more andrested in making money be racing national borders, tearing down cultural identities, then it is in serving the man of ordinary workingclass bluecollar people that bannon things is the backbone of the country, and ought to be at the center of our politics. In bannons prescription for how to do that is essentially to freetradehe global system, to close americas borders, to deport people who are here you go you, and you curb ilLegal Immigration as a way of privileging american citizens and reasserting a cultural identity. Charlie is this different from what cap began and argued in the 1980s . Joshua i talked about this one year ago. Isnt he really your intellectual forbear . He said yes and no. Yes, he caught into the power of this kind of populism, and that bannon, isike steve a deeply traditional catholic, but he said that the difference is that buchanan is not enough of a zionist. That is where he was wrong. I have a big zionist, and therefore, we really do not see eyetoeye. Charlie where does donald trump, into the picture . Joshua trump comes into bens picture in 2010, into bannons picture in 2010. They met a longtime anticlinton activist named david bossie, central to the bill clintons scandals and investigations in the 1990s. He was formerly chief investigator of the oversight committee, the ones who pursued bill clinton more aggressively than any other republicans in congress. Him from the conservative fringes. Trump at the time was getting serious about running for politics, and these are the guys he surrounded himself with. Charlie but they were not close . Joshua not originally. They sued each other. Nn wanted to move into atlantic city. They all hired detectives and see each other. In the end, they settled because there was a better deal for each of them. As soon as they sold, they became friends. After they became friends, he was at a fundraiser, a hospital. Undraiser with steve w a big deal in republican politics and probably have heard of him because Citizens United had just won a stocke court case, so his was trading at a high. Trump is always very impressed with status. He brought him into his orbit. He started going to trump tower to trigger him on politics. One day, he said to his friends the bannon and said i want to introduce you to somebody. And he introduced him to donald trump. Charlie what kind of introduction did they have to each other . Joshua they immediately clicked. And the reason they immediately clicked is because bannon, like trump, is a deal died. Ands one who knows money wall street, but also somebody who has worked in entertainment and cares about it and speaks the lingo. Bannon is a guy fall of political ideas. We did not realize this at the time, but trump was getting serious about running for president. Not gents to boost the ratings. Not just to goose the ratings to the apprentice. Charlie was he looking for a path to the presidency . Joshua he was. Charlie he was a democrat, he was a republican, he was everything. Joshua what he wanted to do was get to a position of power. I told the story of President Trumps fitful political career, when he first started talking about this and going on cnn and telling himself as a president ial candidate. The strain that runs through all of his evolutions, there is whether he is republican, democrat, independent. America isout how getting ripped off by wiley foreign competitors. In the 1980s, it was japan. Now, it is china. I think he recognized in bannon, someone who shared his political outlook, but had a very fully formed politics that matched comfortably with trumps on. The one element that i think steve bannon added to donald was to political persona convince him of the power of the ilLegal Immigration as a political weapon to wield in a falcon pa primary. To wield in a republican primary. The republicans really were not serving the needs and desires of their own voters. Charlie using liquid that was more strident and go into a position further right than they were. Exactly. Bannon had produced a documentary called border wars, where he went down to the u. S. Mexico border and had a visceral sense for the emotion that the Legal Immigration stirs up, and just the anger and anxieties. Ishink bannons dark talent recognizing and exploiting the kind of thing, and that is something that he injected into trumps political persona. And trump, being the intuitive politician that he is, starting testing out this material at rallies, started talking about the wall. He could see you was getting a reaction from these conservative , grassroots voters. He kept going with it. It was not immigration that got him started on this path. It was obama. Inrlie he decided to run 2016. Joshua his longtime adviser said the moment he knew trump was going to run, he calls him up on new years day, 2013, stone calls trump. Trump told him i trademarked the phrase make America Great again. At that moment that trump was really going to go ahead. I covered what unfolded. Over the course of those few months, trump morphing from a guy who is talking about birther to the guyrtherism that is a fullfledged antiimmigrant zealot. Antitrade, antiimmigrant. This is around the time that he came up with a border wall. His staff came up with a border wall. This is when donald trump morphed into donald trott. Into donald trump. Charlie it was always sort of, you know, self interests first. Joshua but it was also playing on the resentments of the very people whose support he was trying to win. This was bans great insight. Charlie they were resentful of the establishment. Not just the establishment your yes, the establishment, but also of everybody, of the immigrants who were coming in. They thought, getting benefits that rightfully belonged to them. These immigrants were displacing them in american culture. That political leaders were more intent on coddling and serving these foreigners and then they were on their own citizens. Bannon understood facility, and trump did, too, the power that could have as a political issue. Beginning in the spring of 2013, that is when trump flipped the switch and turn it on. Steve bannon, donald trump, and the storming of the presidency. Thank you for coming. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. Track your pack. Set a curfew, or two. Make dinnertime device free. 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