Transcripts For BLOOMBERG Charlie Rose 20160705

Abigail adams wrote to her husband about this time. She said, future generations who will reap the blessings will scarcely know the hardships and suffering we have endured on their behalf, and we do not. We do not sufficiently know. Wrote that, and when i read that, it reminded me that these people knew they were making history. Absolutely. They knew they were being called upon to play a part in one of the great historical dramas of all time and they would be judged by how they played their parts, each individually. Wonderful, young henry knox, one ,f the most admirable people aid to George Washington, former boston bookseller, knew nothing more about the military than what he read in books. 25 years old. The very day the text of the declaration of independence arrives in new york from washington from philadelphia, he writes, as we play our parts, history will thes ill or favorably future will judge us ill or favorably. They know they are part of history. That is extremely important to understand. Great that you point it out because that gave them a kind of sense of responsibility, a duty. They did not have much cause to the hope when you consider odds against them. No real army, no navy excuse me no money, no gunpowder. Washington had never commanded an army in battle in his life before he was given the role of commander in chief. Rose speaking of knowing his role in history, George Washington, who we get to know here, was carrying forward because he understood what he had to do. Even though he did not have a great strategy, even though he was, as you say, not a great general by any other definition other than he was a great leader. Mccullough he was a great leader. He is not an intellectual like medicine or jefferson. He is not a great order like patrick henry. He is not a brilliant napoleonic sort of figure. He is a leader. People will follow him. He has absolute integrity, and he will not give up, and he never forgets what the war is about. Again and again, you have people saying they will not quit because i will not leave this good man. We have to remember that at one point, he was down to 3000 troops. Thats all he had left. Hundreds, thousands had quit, deserted, expired, gone over to the enemy rose because they were given pardons. Mccullough absolutely. When the british commanders anyone whodons for would sign the loyalty oath, people in new jersey came by the thousands to sign as quickly as they could. If there had been daily polls taken and run in the newspapers, it would have just disintegrated. People would have realized they did not have a chance, it was over. You thought of this story midway through the john adams book. What caused you to think about it . It was when i was writing the chapter of dealing with the summer after the declaration of independence was signed. The whole war effort is starting to fall apart and then came the battle of brooklyn and the escape from brooklyn, the miraculous night escape by washington. When you are writing a biography, you cannot stray from your subject very much. Elizabeth longford, who wrote the great biography of Queen Victoria was saying you cannot look at your subject for more than five minutes, and she is right. You cannot. I wanted very much to write about the escape from brooklyn. I thought you cannot do it here, but you can in the next book. I began with which surprises some people george iii going before parliament to declare that the american colonies are in rebellion and that their leaders, these rabblerousers rose he calls them the unhappy americans. Unhappy americans, absolutely. They are traitors. He and the king have that british power and they will bring these people to heal and crush the rebellion. It is win that speech reaches boston on the first day of the new year because of the great delay in crossing the ocean, first day of 1776, that the people in the army under Washington People everywhere this is not going to be a short, unpleasant business which will wind up in reconciliation and that we had better be fighting for independence. They do not daresay it right away, although some of them are writing it. Likenathanael greene, who nothing of the military when he signed up. When he was made a general at nothingof 33, he knew of the military other than what he read in books. The whole idea of the enlightenment was a close study of books. Washington, green, and not all had about the equivalent of what we would say a fifthgrade education was. Rose everything i know about this is because of your book. These two guys are new englanders, and George Washington is a very patrician virginian. Ardently dislikes new englanders. He looks down on them, thinks they are dirty and unruly. They had this unfortunate idea to decidewould like things for themselves, which, of course, you cannot have in an army, but he overcomes that bias, which is a real inner struggle. He has to, because it is all he has got, a new england army. He has some people from the middle colonies that join. Rose he takes command at age 43. Mccullough had never commanded an army in battle before in his life. He says to congress, i am not the man for this job. I am not qualified. He also knew he was better than anybody else they could pick. They choose him not because he is a great general. They know he fought in the french and indian war and had a distinguished record. They pick him because they know him as a person, and they know him as a politician. He is a political general, and that is sometimes used in a dismissive or a less than complimentary way. We should thank god that he was a political general, because he never forgets who is boss. Congress is boss. Rose you have washington at 40 43. He goes to the Constitutional Convention in a uniform, even though he is saying, i am not the man. Mccullough he is signaling he is available. Rose you have that contradiction. Mccullough yes and no. He is being honest. He is ready to serve. He has his uniform. He is reminding them that he is a military man at heart. But he is very genuine. Look, i am not the ideal fellow for this job. He makes some very bad mistakes in judgment. He was outfoxed, outflanked, outnumbered, made to look pretty inept at the battle of brooklyn. He was so indecisive at the time of the siege of Fort Washington that he really cost that bastion they thought was impregnable, along with troops. These were terrible, very serious. And yet he did not quit. He did not succumb to his own sense of defeat and failure. And the people who followed him, with only a few exceptions, were determined to stay with him, as was congress. Rose it is said about him that he had this special quality, and that you could not quite put your finger on it, but you knew from the people who saw him up close that he had it, almost like an xfactor. Mccullough yes. He was a commanding figure. Rose tall . Mccullough oh, yes. 62. Probably weighed 190, 200 pounds. Perfect physical condition. The prime of his life. He was a young man, only 43, but. Hey were all young men green, 33. Knox, 25. Adams was 40. Jefferson was 33 when he wrote the declaration of independence. We forget this. Rose we do. Franklin is the only one who had the age. Mccullough he was old enough to have been their father. But we see them as the whitehaired founding fathers. Patriarchs. Elder statesman. At this point, they are not. It is a Young Americans cause. They were not in the majority. Ever, the people who were for the revolution, were never in the majority. They were maybe a third. No one knows what the proportions really were. There were not polls or surveys taken. But at least as many people were against the war as were for it. And they knew what would probably happen to them, the leaders, if they lost. Off with their heads. They would be all hung at the crack of dawn. Mccullough yes. Rose talk about the war for a second. 1775, they go to boston. They win some victories in 1776. Mccullough no. Rose no victories . Didnt they surround them in boston . Mccullough they drove the british out of boston. Impossible for the british to remain in boston. By this incredible feat of ingenuity and doing the impossible, hauling the cannon rose did that give them confidence . Mccullough probably too much confidence. After all, they had driven the british rose and this is the biggest superpower in the world. And they had taken them on and driven them out of austin. Mccullough they were jubilant. They were a victorious team. They marched to new york, the field of battle, for the first time. They suddenly have a name. They are called the continental army. They have a flag to march under. They are going to be joined in new york by the people from new jersey, new yorkers, pennsylvanians. More than it was in boston, truly a continental army. Rose and what happened . Mccullough they got sick in great numbers. Epidemic dysentery, smallpox. They did not understand the rules of hygiene. Washington divided his army, leaving half in manhattan and taking half over to brooklyn. Rose mistake . Mccullough it was a mistake to try to defend new york. It was indefensible because they had no seapower, no navy. The british came in with a fleet of 400 ships. Rose if the british had gone up the hudson, could it have been over . Mccullough yes, indeed, it could have been. When washington fought the battle of brooklyn with about 9000 troops, it was sadly defeated. 300 americans killed. Over a thousand taken prisoner, including three generals. There were pockets of valorous performance on the part of some of our troops. The miracle is they did not lose the war. At that point, the army was in effect in the midst of a real trap. All the british had to do was bring their fleet up the east river, but the wind was in the wrong direction. The other direction, i think it would have all been over. Washington and half of his army would have been trapped. Rose no United States of america, just because of the wind. History would have changed. Mccullough the next day, after the defeat, the battle of long island, they decide they have to escape. The night of august 29, they organize a retreat back across the east river, by rounding up every boat they can get their hands on, on the east river, the hudson, new jersey. Everywhere they could get votes. Brought them all over, and they took that army off of brooklyn in the night, 9000 men, cannon, equipment, forces, everything, without the loss of a single man. An organized retreat in the face of an overwhelming army is difficult to bring off successfully. The fact that this amateur army, undisciplined troops, green troops, people who had never marched with a rifle or musket before, they pulled this off and it worked. It was as miraculous as the wind being in their favor. Rose you got to realize what they are facing the largest Expeditionary Force ever mounted. Mccullough who had just defeated them in a humongous battle, a huge battle, the largest in america up to that point. And the people who saved the army were marblehead, massachusetts mariners, under a little general named john glover. You have a combination of luck or circumstance, the hand of god, as many said, with the wind being exactly what they needed. You also had the skill, the ability of those mariners to pull that off. The boats were so loaded down, water was only inches below the gunwales. If the enemy had any idea they were trying to evacuate, they could have descended on the army and annihilated them, truly, right there. When they get across, most of them, morning is coming. A lot of them are still back on the brooklyn side. It is going to be light, and that will be curtains for them. In comes a providential fog that covers all of brooklyn. Rose oh, yeah. Mccullough but it does not happen on the new york side. If you were writing a book and you had that happen, you would rose that is too much of a perfect weather. Mccullough that is not real. Rose at this time, as they are retreating, what was the mood of washington . Mccullough dolorous. One of abject discouragement. He was exhausted. He had not slept for three nights or more. They all were exhausted. And he i am sure he realized that he played his hand wrong, that he misjudged the whole situation. He never covered what was called the jamaica pass. There is a pass through the roof ridge that runs along long island. They had nobody posted there to stop the british. The british sent 10,000 men on a nine mile march through the night, and around, and they completely outflanked us. It was a perfect military maneuver, perfectly performed by the british, just as they are landing on long island. Everything was done just right. If general howe had attacked that bridge he had them on the run and they were retreating back to the fortifications of brooklyn heights. He could have ended rose what does that say about the british, their leadership and tenacity . Macola it is a big puzzle that historians and military scholars have debated for 229 years. Why did he not move in for the kill . Some say he did not do it cousin because he had had such bloody experience at bunker hill, where the americans were in position in a high ground trench, and he was not going to attack. It had been awful. They lost a thousand men. On the other hand, he would attack a frontal position later on at Fort Washington. I think he felt, why destroy them completely, when we are going to win this . Lets pull back a little bit. Lets not just crush them, because we want them back in. Rose they want to maintain the union. Macola politically, he was a whig. Mccullough politically, he was a whig. That does not mean he was not a tough and professional soldier. He was very smart and very courageous. Rose the two howes were brothers . Mccullough richard was the admiral and william was the general. They were very highly placed, very influential figures in london society. They were aristocrats, as all officers were. And any picture we have of bumbling aristocratic fools in high command during our revolution is simply not so. There are many misconceptions. Rose what about our misconceptions of george iii . Mccullough he is seen as the crazy king who lost the colonies. Rose and in fact mccullough intelligent, interesting man, very sympathetic character. A great collector of looks. A wonderful painter. He was a musician. He was a devoted father. And husband. He was intelligent. Samuel johnson thought he was charming company, and Samuel Johnson did not judge people lightly. But he saw it as his duty to crush this rebellion. His mother had said, george, be king, and when your mother tells you, you be king. He was still pretty young. And the madness of king george, which we know about because of the play and the movie, that does not come for many years later. Long after the war. Rose this is history at the ground level. This is history on the battlefield. This is diaries from soldiers. that is the real story i wanted to tell. Rose and you like some of them. hodgkins. Your favorite character . Mccullough ipswich shoemaker, and fitch, from connecticut. Hodgkins was a shoemaker. Had children and a wife at home, sarah, to whom he wrote regularly no matter what was happening. And they are wonderful letters. He talks about being told to march for this glorious cause. He fights on. After the escape from brooklyn, in this terribly to moralist demoralized army, he is writing to his wife, and he has just received a letter that the little boy, their youngest child, has died. He has known the little boy was sick and was very worried about him. We forget sometimes, these people are thinking about their families, their loved ones. They have been defeated. It looks like it is over. They are exhausted, filthy, dirty. They have no proper uniforms or anything. He hears that this child he adores has died. And yet he picks himself up and he goes on, and he will not stop. Rose because they believed in their leader, they believed in their mission, they believed in the holy idea they were creating a nation . Mccullough i think so. Joseph hodgkins and fitch never talk about the declaration of independence. It is interesting. I never found life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness mentioned. Rose how about equality . Mccullough our country we are going to decide this ourself. We are going to have the society and way of life we want. We are not going to be dictated to. Rose that is what always drives revolutions. Mccullough yes, but they are not fighting because they are exploited, oppressed and poor. Americans have the highest payment, average americans, of any place in the world. Rose but they want to shape their own destiny. Mccullough exactly. And they were proud of who they were. And they wanted to show these brits that they could fight as well as anyone. Given some experience, they are learning from experience. Washington, green. Knox, glover they are all learning as they go along. Rose that was one of the values washington had. He could learn from experience. Mccullough when he is defeated, he does not say, pity me. What can i learn from this . Experience had been his teacher all through life. His father died when he was quite young. He was on his own from age 16. These other people were, too. Fitch is keeping a diary. He kept a diary no matter what was happening, including after he was captured and taken prisoner, and put in one of those vile british prison ships in the harbor here in new york. I think he must have hid a beautiful leather diary. They are writing on scraps of paper, and i think he was hiding it on the ship, because it was against the rules. The fact that they wrote the letters, kept the diaries, is part of their great contributions to the country, because we know what it is like. He can be in their shoes and their skin, and feel what they went through, these human beings. Also, i think, what comes across is how tough they were. These were people who had been beat up by life, just by peace, by our standards. We are sort of contained in cotton, compared to how life was. Rose they did not know how it was going to turn out. They also knew that without courage, without an understanding that life is not always a gift of a bed of roses, you are not going to make it through life, because life was hard. Any new englander, for example, knew that it is best to expect the worst. Life on a new england farm all of these people were farmers. It was a struggle. It was a battle. Many of these fellows had no shoes. Of course, in the wintertime, it was terrible. They are leaving bloody footprints in the snow from marching in their bare feet. That really happened. You also have to understand a farmer, particularly a young farm boy, went barefoot all summer long. About late may to probably october. They had tough feet. They were not like our feet. That is something that, understand, they knew how to fix a broken wagon. They knew how to pull out a stump or dig a trench. They were used to hard work. Rose they knew how to survive outside. Back to the battle. They retreat to new jersey. It is now december, novemberdecember, and things are precarious. George washington, on christmas night, decides what . Mr. Mccullough all hope was gone. He says himself, the game is pretty nearly up. And sometimes when all hope is gone, the thing you do is attack. Mr. Rose freedom is having nothing to lose. Mr. Mccullough he has wanted to attack all along, from boston on. He is constantly wanting to attack. His councils of war, again and again, are pulling him back from that, wisely. Had he launched an attack on the british in boston it would have been a catastrophe. Mr. Rose overwhelming. Mr. Mccullough he decides, christmas night, they are going to attack. They are going to cross the delaware and strike at trenton. There are 1500 hessians, german mercenaries. They are outposts, while the major part of the british army, the enemy army, has pulled back. Most of them back here to new york. They cross at night, and they march through the night. To give you some idea of how rough that was, the only fatalities, the only man lost in the battle of trenton, is two guys who froze to death on the march. Just froze to death. They hit early the next morning, and it was a rout because it was a total surprise and they came in determined to really win. And when it was over, washington turned to one of his officers and said, this is a glorious day for america. And it was. He knew what the psychological impact of the victory would be. Mr. Rose what did it do . Mr. Mccullough he gave people the idea we might win. Mr. Rose even though it took six or seven years. Mr. Mccullough well, they did not know that yet. It was possible to fight them and beat them. It was not a big battle, the battle of long island, the battle of brooklyn, as it was called then. It was a small battle. It was a fierce fight, bloody for the enemy, for the hessians. And the hessians were not drunk from christmas celebrations the night before, as many people have written and said. They werent. Washington then had to do something. The natural decision would have been to retreat back across the delaware where it was pretty safe, because the british did not have any boats to get across. But he did not do that. He turned and made a big loop around, came out and struck at princeton, and won again. Two victories, one right on top of the other. And that combination just changed the morale of everybody. You can read it in the letters of abigail adams, of all kinds of ministers and attorneys, people in all walks of life, writing about what it meant to get the word we had won at trenton. Trenton was far and away one of the most important events in the war and consequently one of the most important events in history. It would truly change the world. That little nighttime attack on trenton, which was a little village. Mr. Rose and he took 2500 men over. Mr. Mccullough yes. Two other attacks were to be launched further down the river. The others did not. Mr. Rose in this case, washington was the field commander. Mr. Mccullough he rode with the troops but he was not commanding immediately. General greene and general sullivan were the commanders of the prongs that attacked. And the boston bookseller henry knox was in charge of the artillery. The artillery really were decisive in net battle. Mr. Rose these guys that George Washington chose early in 1775 served him at trenton. Mr. Mccullough they served him through the entire war. They were the only general officers to stay the distance, to go the whole way with washington. Only two of them. Washington, knox, and greene are the only general officers. Mr. Rose hamilton came in, didnt he . Did he serve as an aide to washington . Mr. Mccullough he was a young artillery officer. He fought at trenton and new york. Mr. Rose what did he think of washington . Mr. Mccullough he idolized him. Later on they would have their differences. Of course, he would become washingtons secretary of the treasury. Rose did washington have after he is one of the great men in history, they are but for George Washington, there is no america. Mr. Mccullough that is my feeling. I think he is the greatest president we ever had. I think he is the greatest american of all. If it were not for him, as you said, there would not be a United States of america. And he did it all right, particularly when he became president. He set example, just as he was setting the example as the general, as the commander in chief, in the very dark days of the revolution. Mr. Rose i think we have got to understand how human they were, because that makes their achievement all the more remarkable. If they were gods, gods can do anything, and they were not. They were not superhumans. They were extraordinary people, and some of them are truly brilliant, and it is truly a miracle what they accomplish. But these were people who were there at the creation. They were making a country, making a revolution first, and then making a country against the most daunting odds imaginable. Mr. Rose where did the phrase present at the creation first come . Mr. Mccullough it was the title of dean atchisons marvelous book about the truman years. But this is the real creation. They are not just starting a new company or a broadway show. They are making a country, a nation. And they do not know how it is going to come out. If they had taken a poll in the country, in the 13 colonies in 1776 they never would have gone ahead. Only a third of the people were for it. Mr. Rose odds were against it. Mr. Mccullough odds were against it and it was not popular. Basically, people were against it. Mr. Rose what matter of man and woman was in favor of it . Mr. Mccullough well, to a large degree, new englanders and virginians. New yorkers and pennsylvanians we have to include the carolinians, absolutely, and maryland. The central states, principally new york and pennsylvania, were very much on the fence. They were led by a man named john dickinson. A very admirable fellow. Mr. Rose what was the nature of the revolutionist . Were they intellectuals . Were they political firebrands . Were they what . Mr. Mccullough they were all of that. Intellectuals, firebrands, ambitious politicians. Decent, hardworking people who had farms. Mr. Rose just were offended by the way things were. Mr. Mccullough they felt they were not being granted the rights that were their birthright as english subjects. In other words, they are not so much revolting to create a new and very different kind of society. They are saying, wait a minute, you are taking away our rights as english subjects, free englishmen, a government of laws, not of men, and you are taxing us, and we have no choice in that. And you are taxing us to pay your own bills back home. Why should we pick up the tab for your expenditures there in england when we have no part in that life . Most of us have never seen england, and besides, it is probably time we started our own country. Mr. Rose no taxation without representation. Mr. Mccullough yes. When they said free and independent, the concept is that they cannot be free unless they are independent, and they cannot generate the moral fire, the morale, the spirit, to fight a war unless they are fighting for independence. They have to do it to give spirit to the army, and they are not going to be able to get any help from abroad, namely france, if they do not declare their independence. Because france is not going to give financial and military support to a country that is going to make up and go back and be part of england again. The french support of our american revolution, which was essential to our victory in the american revolution, was primarily as a way for the french to get at the english. They were not anxious for a government of all the people created equal. France was a monarchy. More of a monarchy than even Great Britain was. Mr. Rose it is amazing when you think about that. On the great decision on the war against france, john adams believes that the most important thing he did was to want peace with france and not war. Most americans do not realize we were fighting a war with france in the last years of the 18th century, during the John Adams Administration as president. We were fighting an undeclared war at sea, but a real war, exchanging fire, capturing ships, all the acts of war at sea. But the real war, the undeclared war at sea could very well have ignited into a real war with, as it happens, the new high dictator, if you will, the emperor, as he liked to proclaim himself, napoleon. But adams steered a very careful, dangerous, treacherous even, course among the shoals and the whirlpools of diplomacy, and managed to keep america neutral, not to side with either england or france. The jeffersonians wanted peace with france at any price. The hamiltonians, or the high federalists, were eager to go to war with france. It was good politics. It would probably have guaranteed adams reelection had they gone war with france. When he succeeded in keeping us from going to war with france after the humiliations of the socalled x, y, z affair, he felt he had saved the country from a colossal blunder, and he was right. But, it was at the expense of his own political fortunes, and he knew that. Mr. Rose and where did he that effort in terms of his historical legacy . Mr. Mccullough he thought it was number one. He was proudest of that than anything he had done. And other historians agree, it really does rank as an extremely brave, politically courageous act, a true profile in courage. There are many similarities between truman and john adams, great differences. Mr. Rose what are the similarities . Mr. Mccullough both farmers sons. Short stature. Readers of history. Letter writers. Both very direct in their candor. And both underestimated. And both men of character and integrity. And both Vice President s who followed looming, idolized president s before them. Mr. Rose right, right. Mr. Mccullough and, having said all that, there were tremendous differences. Mr. Rose like . Mr. Mccullough adams was brilliant. Adams was an intellectual, a giant mind. Truman was very intelligent, but not that. Adams was learned, probably the most widely, deeply read american of his day, more even than jefferson, a farmers son who became that. And adams did not like Party Politics. He thought Party Politics were vile, as did washington. He thought the country would be destroyed by Party Politics, because people would begin to think more about the fortunes of their party than fortunes of the United States of america. Imagine thinking that. Mr. Rose i was going to say, one of the other similarities was they both had a great sense of the country and what it meant, and the mission of the country. Mr. Mccullough absolutely, and they were true patriots, who showed that by risking their lives, by going to war or going to serve overseas, as adams did in the midst of war, crossing the atlantic four times, signing the declaration of independence that declared him, as it did all the others, traitors. Mr. Rose were they loners . Was truman more of a club guy . Mr. Mccullough no, truman was not a loner at all. He was very active in the masons. He was a good party man. They were both devoted to their wives. They were both mr. Rose abigail and bess. Mr. Mccullough yes. And they were both well advised by their wives, backstage. Mr. Rose bess was a wise counsel . Mr. Mccullough yes, i think she was. Bess abhorred public life, would freeze in front of a camera. Became an old stone face. Whereas abigail love public life, abigail adored politics and in many ways was a better political thinker than was her husband. She had a wonderful capacity to judge people. Mr. Rose we will get to that in a moment. Suppose i said to you, david, this is a good idea, but it is going to take 10 years of your life. Mr. Mccullough i am glad i did not know, because i never would have done it. Mr. Rose you never thought about quitting . Mr. Mccullough no, never. I have been very lucky in my subjects, charlie. The more you learn, the more you want to learn. And every book i have never known a great deal about any subject that i have embarked upon right away, ever. Mr. Rose there is discovery for you. Mr. Mccullough if i knew all about it, i would not want to write the book. It is a journey. You learn so much by doing this, and you learn a lot about yourself. Mr. Rose like what . Mr. Mccullough well, this might sound strange, but i think writing history requires a great deal of imagination. I do not mean that you are making things up. But you have to be able to transport yourself into that other time, and into the shoes of those other people. Get inside their skins, if you will. And that takes imagination. That takes empathy and sympathy. I do not mean sympathetic in the sense of feeling sorry for, sympathetic is, you understand what trouble they were in, or how complicated the situation may have been. And what they did not know. You have to always remember, they dont know enough a lot, because they are caught up in the moment, just as we are. They do not know how things are going to turn out. But i also feel that, for me, it has been an opportunity for selfexpression, because i can express things that i feel about human nature, about life, about the bonds of friendship, family, about loyalty, about bravery under difficult circumstances, and about our country, that i am dying to express, that i want to express. I cant understand how anyone who professes to love our country can have no interest in our history. Mr. Rose exactly. Let me go back to jefferson. What is interesting is that everything adams was, jefferson was not. Jefferson burned all the letters that he and his wife wrote or received. Mr. Mccullough yes. Jefferson lives in a different world from adams. He has been born and raised in a different world. His first memory was of being carried on a pillow by a slave. The first thing he remembered in his life. He is, of course, our great voice, our great hand, as they said then. He was the pen of the revolution, and adams was the voice. And he speaks for the equality and the common man. And here he is, living as far removed from the daily life of a common man as one could get. Served in every possible way by people held in bondage, by his slaves. Adams, who is of the common man adams who was a farmers son whose mother was almost certainly illiterate, who grew up knowing that life, particularly on a new england farm, is a struggle. He is saying, youve got to watch out for the common man. I know, i am one of them. And the majority, they get too much power, can be as despotic and dangerous as an individual. So they are the yin and yang of the revolution. Mr. Rose ive always been fascinated by the idea of first adams, jefferson, and franklin of those three, is it automatic that jefferson loved paris more than the other two, or is it hard to tell . Mr. Mccullough i do not think he necessarily did love paris. Adams spoke french better than he did, read it more readily. Franklin of course took to the way of life immediately. Jefferson was there longer. He was there five years. And i think in many ways they were as happy as any years of his life, because he was away from slavery. Mr. Rose wasnt hemmings with him . Mr. Mccullough yes but they were free while they were there. Mr. Rose do you really think he was so troubled by slavery it made him happy he was away . Mr. Mccullough i think he knew it was wrong. Mr. Rose why didnt he give it up . Mr. Mccullough that is a good question. We will never know the answer. I have a feeling it had to do with finances. He was always in debt, and his greatest wealth was in his slaves, which was true of many southern planters. Mr. Rose he died very poor. Mr. Mccullough broke, deeply. Mr. Rose with fine wine in his cellar. Mr. Mccullough yes, and he never stopped spending. He mustve been a smooth talker when he went to the bank. How he could get away with it all his life, he was never not in debt. But i think that jefferson wanted to bring something home from paris. He brought home paintings. He brought home some 80 crates of books, all kinds. To raise the cultural level of the country. And i think that was a genuine mission. I know it was a genuine mission. And that is exactly what these people felt. These americans were not disenchanted with their country. They were not like the socalled lost generation. Mr. Rose they went to learn something and bring something back. Mr. Mccullough yes, they were not alienated from america. They would talk about, this is going to make me a better american or if you like it better american. Mr. Rose you are talking about Thomas Jefferson or the people at the time . Mr. Mccullough yes, they are not going to bring home 80 crates full of stuff, but they are going to bring home themselves as a better sculptor, better painter, better physician, better politician. Mr. Rose excuse my curiosity but i have to ask you about this. When the famous story that jefferson and adams who reached up to whom . That it was adams wife abigail was responsible, then i heard no, mr. Mccullough it was Benjamin Rush from philadelphia. Those two should have a reconciliation before they die. That agreed right away and without it. Mr. Rose abigail had nothing to do with it . Mr. Mccullough no, she was more angry at jefferson. Mr. Rose thats what i heard. Mr. Mccullough she felt he had betrayed her husband because he reportere who put the after adams during the campaign when they were running against each other. Mr. Rose on jeffersons orders . Mr. Mccullough yes. He was the same one who turned around and revealed the relationship on jefferson because jefferson, he felt, had not rewarded him sufficiently for the job he had done. Attacking adams during the campaign. But they were true friends. They were as different as night and day. Day,hey died on the same not just on any day, on the fourth of july, their day. Say,dams truly did jefferson survives. And jefferson was dead. Mr. Mccullough jefferson had died that morning. Mr. Rose wow. July 4. Mr. Mccullough i had the opportunity to write about the most spectacular human beings i do not mean new necessarily great but they were interesting. Im interested in the people. An entirely virtuous person is not very interesting. Score ly perfect mr. Rose you want flaws and warts. You have to be able to transport yourself into that other time and into the shoes of those other people. Get inside their skins, if you will, and that takes imagination. That takes empathy and sympathy. I do not mean sympathetic in the sense of feeling sorry for them, but sympathetic in that you understand what trouble they were in, or how complicated the situation may have been. John tonight, a political noir starring Hillary Clinton. I am in charlotte, north carolina, where president obama and Hillary Clinton made their debut on the trail. Mark is 160 miles away with donald trump at a competing rally later tonight