Set. We should also work with the coalition and the neighbors to impose nofly zones. That will stop assad from slaughtering civilians and the opposition from the air. Charlie french president Francois Hollande has urged the United States and russia to cooperate against isis. President obama expressed doubts about working with moscow. President obama there is an increasing awareness on the part of president putin that isil poses a greater threat to them than anything else in the region. The question at this point is whether they can make the strategic adjustment that allows them to be effective partners with us and the other 65 countries who are already part of the counterisil campaign. And we dont know that yet. Charlie joining me now, general david petraeus. He was commander of u. S. Forces in iraq and afghanistan. He later served as director of the Central Intelligence agency. Today hes chairman of the k. K. R. , global institute. Im pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. David thanks. Good to be back. Charlie we talk about areas that you know a lot about. Tell me what you think ought to be the considerations both offensively and defensively. As everybody seems to agree isil isis now has a global strategy and a global reach. David it certainly demonstrated that over the last couple of weeks with the attack in sinai, lebanon and then obviously in paris. If we can just step back for one moment, though. I think we should really acknowledge two key lessons from the postarab spring period. The first is that ungoverned spaces or even inadequately governed spaces likely will be exploited by extremists who want to foment disorder and wish us ill. Second, there is no substitute for American Leadership in contending with such situations. Clearly i think the paris attacks, developments in recent weeks show that its time for a reassessment of the strategy. To ask questions, i think, about is the Mission Statement broad enough, are we taking all these steps that we can, are the rules of engagement overly restrictive, should we deploy Additional Resources and so forth . And youve heard, we heard former secretary of state clinton outline her plan, which did indeed call for a good bit more action, including a nofly zone. Something that i also strongly endorse and spoke about before the Senate Armed Services committee a month or so ago. Charlie what is the strategy, you think, of the president today . David first of all, the president has asked the military for additional options. And so its very clear that what he wants to do is accelerate this rollback, if you will, of the Islamic State. But there are a number of components to that. In iraq, for example, first of all, the center of gravity, the whole effort in iraq is actually in baghdad. Its iraqi politics. Those have to be inclusive, if you can have a sustainable set of achievements there. Because rolling back the Islamic State without having forces that have legitimacy in the eyes of the people, the sunni Arab Community of iraq, which became alienated once again under the previous Prime Minister, that just wont work. So youve got to have sunni arab forces that are ready to hold areas once theyre cleared. And we really havent yet had to contend with that in a big way, though certainly tikrit was such an operation and that does seem to be held now by forces that are quasilegitimate in the eyes of the people. When they take ramadi and especially when they take back mosul, there has to be a plan for that hold force. Charlie whats your assessment today of the willingness of the sunni tribes to participate against isis . David my understanding is that they are quite willing. What theyre waiting for is the authorization from baghdad in some cases, for us to provide additional assets to them, Additional Resources, and indeed theyre waiting for some kind of official approval for their status, if indeed theyre going to become part of the National Guard. Charlie this is in the hands of the iraqi government. David it is. This is why i stressed earlier that the center of gravity of this effort really is in baghdad. The iraq effort, that is. Syria is a different issue. Sunni arabs have to be brought back into the fabric of iraqi society, as we did, by the way, during the surge. One of the key surge of ideas, one of the biggest of those was to make the sunni arabs feel as if they had a stake in the success of the new iraq, rather than a stake in its failure. Right now theres a little indecision still on that. Charlie how do you make them know they have a stake in the future of iraq . David the representatives to approve this National Guard initiative that the Prime Minister has put forward. This has been stalled in the council of representatives. The Prime Minister has directed some actions to go forward. But something that formally acknowledges their role and frankly formally acknowledges theyre going to receive salaries and so forth if they put it all on the line and help out with the clearance and then the holding of major cities like ramadi, fallujah and, above all, mosul. Charlie anything else they need before theyre prepared to go forward against isis and lead a sunni charge that would join with the rest of those forces that are allied against isis . David yes. Obviously theyll need weapons, theyll need training, theyll need equipment beyond that. Now, again, there are thousands of these forces that have already received that. But this is going to take a good bit more than that. Remember how intensive it is in terms of people to hold areas. And we learned that during our previous experiences in iraq. This time we should not be the ones on the ground. I believe that. But we should have advisors down at brigade level. We should have joint Tactical Air Controllers ready to help out additional advisor teams. Charlie this is not just special forces or is it entirely special forces advisor teams that will work with sunni arabs who may be joining the war . David the core of the advise and assist teams right now comes from conventional Infantry Brigades and theres an 82nd Airborne Division headquarters that is over the top of that particular effort. My recommendation is indeed to extend that, not just at Division Headquarters but to push them to brigade headquarters. Charlie so theyll be embedded with those fighting on the ground. David thats exactly right. Thats sufficiently close. It will help out much more. I think youll have much more closer integration. And then i think you also it have to look at the rules of engagement. By many reports theyre so strict that there is an approval process thats required, that its not the kind of streamlined effort that is necessary, certainly no one wants to see civilians killed or Collateral Damage. But this is war and i think theyre probably going to have to relook some of that as well. Charlie let me go through that. Thats important. The question is, what can you do on the ground . What should the rules of engagement be . David well, reportedly right now its essentially no civilians killed in any action. Charlie we cant do anything that might lead to the Collateral Damage to civilians. David there is an exception process, reportedly, that exists. But the question is, again, is this too strict . Certainly look, we had a sign on the wall when i was in iraq that asked, will this operation create more bad guys than it takes off the streets by its conduct . And you have to constantly keep that in mind. But i think, again, theres a strong feeling among many who are out there that this is a bit too restrictive right now. Charlie this goes beyond special forces which the president consistently mentions. David yes. Again, the advisor teams are already there. They come from Infantry Brigade combat teams, not special forces. Charlie will it take more of them to embed with at the brigade level . Charlie certainly. If you have more advisor teams youre going to need more. I havent done the math because i dont know the specific number of brigades in the fight. It shouldnt be every brigade in iraq, just those two are going to be engaged in these operations to clear the remaining areas in which the Islamic State is located. Particularly out in the west in anbar and up in the north in mosul, which is the capitol. Charlie do they work with iraqi militias, shia militias . David no, they dont. As you know, there have always been concerns about us being the air force for the iraqi shia militia, supported by iran. So thats been a sensitive issue. And essentially what is happening is that the iraqi army and some Iraqi Special forces elements generally lead the way, we support them and in some case you have the shia militia behind and in some cases theyre separate. Charlie theres a specific rules of engagement in terms of we dont help the shia militias with the air force capabilities . David its tough to ask the folks in the pentagon, certainly. But my understanding is, and its been a point of sensitivity all along, that, again, the degree of cooperation, coordination with iraniansupported shia militia has to be very, very strictly limited. Just to that of deconfliction through iraqis not currently with them. Keep in mind, if i could, these are elements that are being paid by the iraqi government, theyre getting salaries from the iraqi government. But theyre actually responding to sort of quasilegal leadership, which is in many cases influenced quite directly by the head of the cuds force of quds force of iran. Charlie do you believe there are Iranian Forces on the ground . David there are certainly advisors, no question. This is not like syria where you have Lebanese Hezbollah and shia militia and so forth from outside the country that are actually engaged in the fight. Certainly in syria, a number of quite high ranking quds force officers have been killed. Charlie after the taking of sinjar, how long will it take to mount an attack against mosul . And is that the next priority . David i think the next priority is probably the ongoing operation in ramadi. But the significance of sinjar is that that cuts the main supply route that was left from the capital of the Islamic State to mosul in syria, again, really the capital of the north of iraq, as it has been historically. The very important location for them in iraq. Probably the Central Location in terms of importance. Charlie what is your assessment and from what you know of the military capabilities, military capabilities of isis . David the Islamic State really is three elements right now that you have to think about. Its a conventional army. Thats really what came into iraq and seized these different strategic cities, that was literally threatening the very gates of baghdad, if you will. Until it was rolled back over the course of the last year or so. But still holds very significant parts of iraq and certainly large swaths of syrian people, say roughly the state of indiana in size, to give some perspective on that. Theres a conventional force. Territory they hold. Theres a conventional force. Theres also a terrorist element. Because they still continue to carry out terrorist acts in baghdad and in other cities in iraq, often targeting shia sites, trying to foment civil war, as indeed their forbearers did, al qaeda in iraq did so successfully to create the spiral of violence that escalated so terrifyingly in 2006. And then there are also already guerilla or insurgents. One would suspect, as their conventional forces are degraded, defeated, rolled back, that they will certainly try to leave as many of the terrorist cells and insurgent elements in the country as they can. Charlie it is argued that Holding Territory that they hold creates a socalled caliphate. The iraq Islamic State. That is part of a narrative that is attractive. David its very, very important. And the reason for the need for urgency, if you will, is to show that the Islamic State is a loser. As long as the Islamic State is seen to be a winner, it will have much greater success in social media, which is an element of their capabilities that has really distinguished them from core al qaeda or the original al qaeda. Charlie and not only in competition and in warfare with its enemies but also with competing david absolutely. Charlie islamic groups. David quite right. Theres quite a tug of war going on among these Different Groups, each trying to get as many adherences as possible, trying to make inroads in afghanistan, for example, trying to make inroads in yemen, sinai, libya. A number of different locations where the Islamic State has spread its tentacles. And again, nothing succeeds like success in the recruitment of jihadis. Charlie there is al qaeda, then there are al qaeda affiliates that we often talk about. You look at mali, that was an al qaeda affiliate. David we believe so, yes. I havent seen the exact attribution of that but the expectation is that that is al qaeda in the islamic lands. Charlie and you have al qaeda affiliates in the rest of the world as well. In africa, especially. David in yemen. In afghanistan. Small. But still there. Certainly. Charlie when you move to syria, what are the options in syria . Where the russians have changed the dynamics of the game. David they have. They have added a huge additional level of complexity to the whole affair. And its important to note right off the front that russia is hitting the people that were supporting, our guys, if you will, on the ground, even more than theyre hitting Islamic State with their air power. Thats largely because the forces that we have been supporting have generally been seen as a greater threat to the russian airbase and the russian sea base, both on the mediterranean coast. Charlie do they have anything to do with the support with the time that you were with the c. I. A. And there was an effort to support moderate forces, are they the same moderate forces as in 2011 . Are they the same moderate forces or is it a Different Group of moderate forces . David thats obviously something i couldnt go into. Some others have commented on that. And ill let them speak for themselves. Charlie is there, from your assessment, a Strong Enough moderate force for us to support or do we have to, you know, essentially rebuild and try to create a group that can compete against isis . David there are forces in the south and the north that have a reasonable degree of capability and what we need to do is enable them further and we need to protect them better. And this is where the nofly zone comes in, the socalled safe haven or enclave. Charlie when you say nofly zone, the president says isis has no air force. Thats his response. David this gets to the heart of the issue. The disconnect, if you will. We want these guys to fight the Islamic State. These guys want to fight alassad and the regime which they see as responsible for the deaths of 300,000 syrians and the displacement of far more than half of the population. Of course the regime being shia supported by iran, Lebanese Hezbollah, the quds force and others. And the opposition being sunni arab. And they feel very much by the way, of course the sunni arab is vastly the majority in the country. So that is the challenge that we have. And i think we have to commit to support them against the regime as well as against the Islamic State. Noting that i am not one who is in a hurry to get rid of Bashar Alassad until we have a sense of what might follow him. He cant be part of the solution. Hes the Magnetic Attraction that brings individuals into syria and that has indeed made the Islamic State able to recruit from abroad as well. So he is ultimately not going to be part of the solution. Charlie when he uses barrel bombs against his own people. L. F. O. And other places. David exactly. And what we have to do is say, look, if the barrel bombs continue, well ground your air force and we have the capability of doing that. Now, were also now, though, the added complexity is to deal with russia. And there we need to have some coordination with them and explain, look, these guys are our guys and if you keep going after our guys, at some point were going to have to go after your guys. Bashar alassads guys. Charlie your guys are in fact in this case assads air force. David exactly right. Charlie we should ground assads air force. David yes. You can ground the fixed wing pretty easily. Just crater the runways. The rotary wing, helicopters take a little bit more. But we have the capability, its very doable. Charlie why dont you think the president does it . Or the pentagon . David in the beginning it would have been much more complex. When he had an intact, integrated air Defense System that was quite sophisticated, i think this would have taken a good bit of effort. That is not intact anymore. Beyond that, we can do a lot of this without ever having to go inside the air space. Charlie do we know how much the russians have, in their support of assad, helped him rebuild that or david we know where the runways are. We know where the aircraft are. And i think we can deal with that. Thats something that is doable. Charlie and we should do it now . David i believe we should. If we dont, again, these forces will ultimately gravitate, as many others have, to either the Islamic State, which has a lot of resources, still, although were really taking those away from them with the increase in the campaign against their Oil Infrastructure and indeed the whole illegal Oil Transport system, or al nassar, which is yet another al qaeda affiliate, this case in northern syria. Charlie what difference are there between them and isis . David isis has been truly extraordinarily barbaric. Isis has taken actions that i think even al qaeda would not have countenanced. For a couple of different reasons. One is that so its extreme that it alienates the population in the eyes, at least of al qaeda. Charlie the way you were able to get the sunnis in part of the sunni awakening, as well as the surge and other elements, was in fact use what al qaeda was doing to the local populace. David exactly right. The local populace had gotten very, very tired, to put it mildly, of what al qaeda was doing to them. They were repressive and the violence they were carrying out inside sunni areas and shia areas was beyond the pale. They were eager to go after al qaeda if we would secure them initially, support them, and some months into it, also if we could get them some form of salary. Charlie heres what i still have a question about. The president said, in his press conference in turkey, you know, that what hes recommending is exactly what his military advisors are recommending to him. Obviously if thats true and hes against the nofly zone, his military advisers are not recommending a nofly zone. It would seem to me. David i dont know whats going on inside the pentagon or the situation room in the west wing. Charlie theyre not doing it and the president says hes relying on the advise of his generals or admirals which would be tantamount to not listening to what they say. David again, i think the importance of paris is that it is and should be a catalyst for reexamining the strategy. I think he should go, and he has a new chairman of the joint chiefs and a number of other new figures in the military positions, and say, ok, lets take yet another fresh look at this. And see if the situation is different. What is it that we could theyll give him options and that certainly should be among the options. Charlie you say after paris, tell me again. After paris the u. S. Has to reassess and ask what questions . David again, up front, i think you have to ask, is the actual Mission Statement sufficiently broad . Is it just degrade and defeat the Islamic State or is it also to contribute to conditions that can help achieve governance and security in these ungoverned spaces . Thats why up front i made the comment that ungoverned spaces are going to be exploited by extremists. I think you have to look a bit more broadly at the mission. Without getting into the kinds of nation building and large forces certainly that i was privileged to lead in iraq and afghanistan. I think you have to do it with Host Nation Forces and by the way, id keep neighboring countries out of this as well there. Have been some who have said, where are the arab armies . They should stay outside iraq and syria by and large. Charlie why is that . David if you had the saudis or any of the other neighbors or the jordanians or others in iraq, that would give a huge boost to the shia militia who might see this as, again, sunni arabs trying to solidify the position inside iraq. It would certainly be an outside intervention in a way that would not be welcome. Charlie an ongoing opponent of the middle east now is sunnishia, as well as saudiiranian. David very much so. That could be seen as an escalation of that, undoubtedly it would be, i think. So calls for that kind of activity, i think, are misplaced. Beyond that, frankly, the saudis and the emirates and a number of others, bahrainis, are engaged very heavily in yemen. They need to see that through. Thats yet another by the way, that has, of course, shiasunni overtones because the huties that are being fought against the saudis are shia. Charlie and supported by bahrain. So the question that constantly comes up, i want you to help clarify this when the question is raised not just simply of reinforcing what were doing and adding to it and imbedding at embedding at the brigade level, that we need to put american combat forces on the ground, boots on the ground, to a larger extent than we are now, should we do more . David i would not at this point. Charlie why go ahead. David i think if we are required there to clear and hold an area, its not sustainable. Again, you need to have a hold force that has legitimacy in the eyes of the people, that has to be sunni arab forces in iraq charlie it cannot be American Forces . David it should not be. Not at this stage. Again, you should have some contingencies. If theres some real urgency beyond what we even have now, which is quite a great deal, have some contingencies for taking action. But i would not i wouldnt take that at this point. Now, i would make sure that theres a headquarters established, a joint task force say up in turkey that is unifying all efforts in syria under the combined joint Task Force Commander, who by the way, Lieutenant General sean mcfarland, was the colonel outside ramadi when we had the very first of the awakening. The one that preceded the surge by a couple of months. Hes now the three star in charge of this overall campaign. And making sure that his organizational architecture and all the relationships, the command and support and operational relationships are sorted effectively is yet another issue that probably needs to be reexamined as we look at what can be done in the wake of the attacks in paris. Charlie i want to go back to what you think reassessment takes place after paris and your sense that we need American Leadership. As to what else we can do other than what we have talked about here. David anything else that we can do in the way that ambassador ryan crocker and did i in baghdad during the surge to help facilitate iraqi politics to become more inclusive. Again, one of the key achievements of the surge that really enabled the success that we had in driving violence down by well over 80 was getting the sunni arabs feeling that he had had a stake in the success of the new iraq rather than a stake in its failure. As they had felt prior to that point. Charlie is the more important bat until iraq or syria and can you say that battle in iraq or syria and can you say that . The caliphate is both syria and iraq. David its a question that you have to go both places, obviously. I would say if you back all the way up to the overarching framework for your strategy against the Islamic State, it has to be the same as weve employed against al qaeda. It has to be comprehensive and it has to be everywhere. Again, you cant whackamole here to have them pop up there. You have to whack all the moles all the time simultaneously. Charlie thats what happens. Weve talked to bob gates here last weekend and others, to mount whoever the people on the ground are, youve got to make sure that you maintain and hold you can drive them out of a certain place but how do you prevent them unless you stay there . David thats exactly right and this is very man powerintensive. As we learned in iraq and as weve learned in afghanistan. Youve got to have those forces established, theyve got to have legitimacy in the eyes of the people. And theyve got to be ready to hold these areas after they have been cleared of the Islamic State forces. Charlie you seem to say its iraqi forces in iraq and syrian forces, syrian nationals in syria. Nobody else. David yes. I think anybody else is a complicating factor by and large. Id be very hesitant that can transform the entire region into a civil war. You really have a regional civil war as it is now. Being fought inside syria and iraq. Having it spread beyond that, i think, would obviously be very destabilizing. Charlie heres the headline today from the financial times. A call for urgency in the fight against isis. David yeah. There has to be this sense of urgency. As long as the Islamic State is seen as succeeding, and by the way, you know, they have sustained enormous losses in the course of recent weeks in particular. I just saw a report of a strike in which a couple hundred vehicles were taken out. Just huge, huge. Charlie why hadnt we taken them out before . David theres always a hesitation if youre going to be responsible for a country later on to destroy all its infrastructure while youre trying to save it. This is the old adage that we had to destroy the village to save it. Thats not what you want to do. You want to limit the destruction as much as you can. But theres clearly a point at which you then have to, if you realize this is not putting a sufficient dent into their ability to raise revenue, to generate revenue from illegal oil sales, youre going to have to do something and will you have to start taking down more of that infrastructure. That is the case. Charlie youve also called for safe zones. David yes. Charlie what would that be . David this would be an area in which the forces would be directed protected. In particular against bashars air force and the dropping of barrel bombs on the peoples head every afternoon. Theres no way that you can expect a force to be able to establish and build and train and equip and Everything Else if thats going happen to them. By the way, this would also be an area to which refugees could return. Its an area where presumably you could help charlie how big of an area would it be . David its quite sizable in the north. If you look at the maps of the areas that are controlled by the opposition that were supporting, the sunni arab opposition, and theres a fairly substantial area in the south as well. And what you want to do is to get local control reestablished there. Thats impossible if youre getting barrel bombs or other munitions dropped on you on a regular basis. Charlie im asking to you repeat yourself because i want to make sure i understand. How do we handle this difficult decision in terms of what we do and what we recommend with respect to Bashar Alassad . Do we not engage him other than in terms of nofly zone . Or do we supply and support with whatever they need, those forces, so called moderate forces in syria, who are trying to be against him . Or do we come to this battle in syria right now and say, our target has to be isis . Their headquarters are here, hair heartbeat is here. David you can say all you want that you have to focus on isis but if a guys dropping barrel bombs on your head every afternoon or bashars air force, youre going to go after bashars air force. Charlie youre fighting but your goal is not to overthrow it . David no, hang on a second. Its very commonly said theres no military solution to this problem. Well, that may be true. Probably is true. However, there is a military context that is required and without which all of the diplomatic negotiations are going to lack seriousness. And so that additional pressure on bashar and the regime is what is going to help create that context. Oh, by the way, by supporting these forces against or at least protecting them from whatever bashar is trying to do, i think will then increase the chances that theyre also going to want to take on the Islamic State. Charlie tell me what you think russia has accomplished in syria . David first off, of course, this has given president putin a chance to stride the world stage. Something that hes quite fond of doing. He has demonstrated that hes forceful, that hes decisive, he has shown the ability to deploy forces, expeditionary capabilities and so forth. Hes shown he stands by his guys and, again, of course bashar has been his guy. Thats why russia has its only naval base in the mediterranean down at tartus and its only airbase in the mediterranean area roughly as well. Hes always been one who has opposed the overthrow of governmental leaders. However strong men they may be. For fear that someone might get the same idea about him. Charlie he thinks its destabilizing the same way you said, it might become a vacuum for a whole range of things. David he can certainly makes that case. It diverts attention from ukraine to some degree. Although sadly fighting has flared up again there. He would love to get out from under the sanctions. His economy is in tatters. Theyre substantially in recession. Oil prices down 55 , gas prices are going to go down next as u. S. Liquefied natural gas enters europe. Hes got a bleak prospect of the future. Its not as strong a hand as it appears, i dont think, and yet hes playing it with fairly good tactical skills. Charlie as we speak hes in iran meeting with the ayatollah and we have zero contact with the ayatollah. David striding the world stage again. Charlie should we make common cause with him . David how can you make common cause with a guy who has sent forces into georgia, sent forces into crimea and took that over as trying to undermine ukraine, you know, again, his goal in ukraine is not just an independent section or separatists in the southeastern part of the country. Its to make sure that ukraine does not succeed. His Worst Nightmare would be a ukraine that has a flourishing free market economy and a pluralistic democracy. Charlie and looking to the west. David yes. Charlie but here is president putin and president hollande talking for research. He said, Francois Hollande will urge president obama to intensify the military campaign against isis when he visits the white house tomorrow. As the french president steps up his diplomatic offensive in the wake of the paris attacks. Mr. Hollande plans to push for a sense of urgency in syria as part of a week of consultations. What do you think of a grand coalition . And how would that come about . David there is a sizable coalition now. Over 60 countries. Huge numbers. But frankly far and away the vast majority of the Intelligence Surveillance reconnaissance assets, the vast majority of just about everything in this campaign, at least when it comes to the air operation, has been provided by the United States. So additional assets from nato countries and allies would certainly be very welcome. Again, many countries have what are essentially token forces. There is a substantial number of different elements from countries on the ground, training and equipping various iraqi elements, special forces are in there as well. But again, anything that increases the resources that are available to the combined joint Task Force Commander and the overall coalition would be very, very helpful. Charlie im asking this question in the context of a grand coalition, a grand bargain, that kind of thing. Is this a Pivotal Moment in the history of that region when we look at borders that were falsely constructed after world war i . Are we looking at a moment of tremendous change and paris has just been, you know, a point in which everybody seems to say, weve got to do something that we have not been doing . David it certainly may be one of those Pivotal Moments. Im not one who would concede that iraq should be broken up into sunnistan and shiastan. Theres already a kurdistan, frankly. Autonomy. D deal of because of the fact that no one is able to tell me how theyd get there from here. Whos going to draw the line on the map . What happens to all the population in the mixed areas . You could have another syria on your hands in iraq. Weve seen this movie before. The violence, you know, in the late part of 2006 was absolutely horrific. As bad as it is now, it was completely out of control. Charlie the height of the sectarian conflict. David thats exactly right. There were 53 dead civilians in baghdad due to violence every 24 hours. Thats in the nations capital. It was that out of control. We dont want to see that return. By the way, the sunni arab areas that are in iraq have no Oil Production or natural Gas Production in them, so where would the revenue to sustain them come from as well . So the sunnis still there is still a huge force in iraq and it is the distribution of the oil revenues. Its something that also keeps iraqi kurdistan, the Kurdish Regional government, tied to baghdad as well. Syria on the other hand may literally be a Humpty Dumpty that cant be put back together again. One doesnt know what of the various outcomes it could be. Charlie syrians, the United States, iran, russia, saudi arabia, to all come together and reconstruct syria or would you try to limit that to the u. S. And russia, who clearly have interests there . And the iranians . David ive spoke to a lot of groups have a stake, obviously in what the outcome is there. And one of the challenges is going to be to get legitimate representatives of these Different Groups. One of the challenges right now is that theres no unified Political Leadership of the sunni arabs in syria. There are different elements, there is indeed a body that purports to provide that. But theyre not linked to all the different forces that are fighting on the ground. So thats one of yet another of the many complexities with which the diplomats are going to have to deal as this goes forward. Its good that they are talking. But you should then ask, ok, who are representing the sunni arabs and do they actually have, again, support of those on the ground . Because those are the ones who are actually fighting and trying to hold various areas of syria. But it may well be that we cant put it back together again. If thats the case, again there will have to be some new organizing structure mechanism, what have you, or perhaps, wonder of wonders, could you have a multiethic knick, multisectarian, pluralist democracy headquartered in damascus again, although i think thats unlikely. Something thats very important to recognize is i dont care what your objective is in syria, you name it and i will point out that a force that we can support of sunni arabs, ideally moderate, true moderates, is absolutely essential. You want to destroy the Islamic State, theres going to be the force on the ground. Charlie are you certain theyre there and that conditions have to be created so they can be the Destructive Force against isis that you need . David there are not enough of them there right now. There are some there, we have been enabling them, supporting them and assisting them for some time. Clearly if we really get behind them and vow to protect them from the air force and so on, i think youd see a lot more flocking to that color. Charlie let me talk about the global strategy. How do you combat the global strategy . How do you combat the terrorism that we saw in paris . David it has to be, obviously, a very, very comprehensive response. We have to fight even in cyberspace. You have to contest, if you will, the intellectual discussion thats going on there. To confront the extremists on the internet. Not just to mention the enormous premium on good intelligence from all sources and also linked with Law Enforcement officials. And again, what has been working in the United States is a very, very Good Partnership between the Intelligence Community and all the various Law Enforcement organizations. But of course you get stretched over time. If you look at the sheer number of individuals, for example, that france was following, and then you figure out what their assets are, then you start to understand that this is such an industrial strength problem that it is very, very difficult to nip every attack in the butt, to stop it, to preempt it. That is the concern in every one cists, including right here in countries, including here in our own. Charlie was there more planning in paris than you thought . David it appears to have been. This was something that was planned some, reportedly, six to nine months earlier. Individuals got in there, got weapons, not as easy to do that there as it is here. Although theyre available on the black market, without question. Charlie they used encrypted apps. David lots of challenges here. Clearly the Islamic State showed theyre certainly not intent on just activities in iraq and syria, just in their actual caliphate area. They want to strike well beyond that and they demonstrated that very clearly in the sinai, lebanon and paris. Charlie this is a diplomatic question. Beyond interrupting their narrative, you know, look, were building the new Islamic State and were successful and were winning and all of that, how do we win the battle of ideas . David you have to have a foundation on which the battle of ideas is fought. And clearly in some cases there are reasons for feeling alienated, disgruntled, shut out of society, of opportunity and so forth. Those kind of issues have to be dealt with and those are very, very difficult, obviously. But then, again, most importantly youve got to have muslim voices countering the various narratives that are being put out by the Islamic State. And that has to be more and more aggressive, clearly. Charlie and it has to be sunni . Because most of the Islamic State is sunni. David thats exactly right, yep. And it has to have the language, the dialect, knowledge of the religion. This is challenging. Charlie how much support does charl\ie how much support does isis have in these other sunni states like saudi arabia, like the emirates . David theres certainly no official support for them. The governments in those countries have fought against al qaeda. Theyve done everything they can. I can assure you, when i was the director of the c. I. A. , if we took something to one of those countries, it was hard and fast that they would deal with that. We were all very, very closely linked. Charlie whenever you would present the king of saudi arabia with evidence of something that you had hard and fast facts, they would respond to it . David yes. Again, theres a very Close Partnership in each of these countries between u. S. Law enforcement, u. S. Intelligence community and the host nation governments. And thats because they were battling these individuals. Lets remember that when he was the deputy minister of interior, prince muhammad, now the crown prince, heroically led this effort that really destroyed what was al qaeda in the kingdom at that particular time. He almost lost his own life. A suicide bomber blew himself up, tried to take the prince out. And it was unsuccessful, obviously. But these countries are very, very much keenly focused on ensuring that the Islamic State now cannot establish a beach head in their countries. And they are very much against people sending money to these organizations as well. The problem is, of course, that you dont just send it through the swift system. You do it through a courier, some mechanism. So thats literally plot impossible to track, but its not impossible to track but its very difficult to track. Charlie do you believe we have good intelligence as to how isis operates . We have seen drone attacks take out key leaders of isis. David which would indicate theres a good deal of precision to the intelligence that we have. Charlie exactly right. They knew somebody was getting in a car to go somewhere. A vehicle. David sure. Charlie and they took him out with a drone. It means you have to have some kind of information. David and the operation on the ground in a couple of different place, operations actually that have either taken out a key leader or detained them or rescued hostages and so forth. Clearly there is a good baseline of intelligence thats been established now. The fact that weve had the socalled unblinking eye in the air over many of these areas, over time you just accumulate knowledge of what is taking place on the ground. You augment that obviously with all the other forms of intelligence signals. Cyber, anything you can get in any other way. And obviously human intelligence. The real coin of the realm. Ive been away from this for several years, but thats, needless to say, whats being done. And im confident that we are establishing more and more and more of an understanding of what it is that were seeing with this unblinking eye. Thats enabling us to take the operations that weve been taking. Charlie and you assume you get a lot of help from the intelligence agencies of those sunni countries as well. David certainly. Charlie so this is a long twilight struggle, or has it been given, because of paris, a new urgency . So there has to be a full scale, coordinated response . David i think this probably is a generational struggle. I think, even if you succeed, say, operationally, tactically, against the Islamic State in iraq and then in syria, there still is going to be a battle. There still will be extremist ideas, there will still be individuals who will be animated by those ideas. There will still be those who propagate those ideas. So i think that what we want to do, obviously, is to reduce the capabilities of the Islamic State, of al qaeda. Charlie is reduce all we can hope for . David no. We want to defeat them in iraq and syria, im talking about reducing it very, very dramatically. But the idea that you will actually put a stake through the heart i think would be misplaced. We did destroy, not just defeat, thats a very significant military term, it means that its rendered incapable of accomplishing its mission without reconstitution, we destroyed al qaeda in iraq. During the surge and in the years after. And kept it destroyed. And unfortunately it was let back up off the mat when we didnt stay after it in the wake of the departure of our forces. Charlie forces had been there, it would not have been able to come back . David hard to say. It depends what Prime Minister maliki would have allowed us to do. There were certain charlie we would have seen it and been able to destroy it at its core . David we would have had better intelligence, i would think. Whether that enabled us or allowed us, because of the restrictions on our forces, placed by the iraqi Prime Minister and government, whether we would have had the capability to do something to them is very much in question. What is not in question, i dont think, is that we would have had a much better understanding of what was going on. Because wed have all these different bases and, if you have bases then you have, as they say, the ability to gather insights. From those different locations. Again, its an open question as to whether or not we could have influenced the government and prevented it from doing taking the actions that were so highly sectarian, that they alienated the sunni arab population that would work so hard over the previous five years to bring back in to the government. Charlie as youve always said, this is a political dimension. If we dont address that, we will never find a way to do it. David again. Center of gravity in iraq, baghdad and iraqi politics. Thats a very, very thats a very difficult terrain right now. Charlie if you could define the debatable the question that should be debated in the political campaigns, what would it be . David i guess id want to get an understanding of the real Strategic Thinking on dealing with threats posed by extremist organizations. Charlie on the part of each candidate . David yes. Id want to get that sense. This has to be beyond sort of Bumper Sticker slogans and, were going to lead. Although, just the fact of we are going to lead is a very important one. Because as ive said earlier, lesson number two in the postarab spring period is theres no substitute for u. S. Leadership. Charlie you believe u. S. Leadership has not been apparent . You are by definition critical of the Obama Administration for not doing enough and not showing enough urgency. David look, what happened, i think, is that in the wake of iraq and afghanistan, if you will, as they were still going on, the recognition of the enormous cost, the frustration, all the rest of that, really led us to say, oh, man, lets keep our hands off, you know, lets not get burned by this one again. Charlie longest war in our history, afghanistan. David yep. By the way, were still there. We to this point have accomplished the mission that we set out to accomplish when we went there. Which is to ensure that afghanistan is not once again a sanctuary for extremists the way it was when al qaeda was there. We learned a lot in iraq. Some of it transferable to afghanistan. Certainly the lesson about not drawing down precipitously. It was reassuring that the president kept 9,800 there. One can ask about the slope of getting there and other issues, are we doing enough to support our afghan partners, again, in terms of rules of engagement and so forth, are they too restrictive is something we should ask ourselves. Charlie for whatever reason, you seem to be reticent to really directly criticize the president. Other than specific areas like a nofly zone. David i served this president and the previous president. Im not one who sees these as really simple issues. These are tough issues. I was in the room when there were debates on some of these decisions. And, again, its never clear cut when youre the person at the head of that particular table. Obviously i recommended certain things that were not approved at various times. Some of these are publicly known. But that doesnt mean that im just going to then start poking a serving president in the eye. Charlie in fact, what you hope the president has is a divergence of opinion that is clearly expressed so the commander in chief can make the right decision. David exactly right. Then its the job of those who made the recommendations to do everything they can to implement the decision that he makes, even if its different than what they recommended. Charlie thank you for coming. David petraeus for the hour. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. Suffering a set back as he tries to control asset holdings. Reject thing a buyback offer. 5 . Must wait 12 months before trying again. Incorrectly