New studies suggest the maternal instinct is not unique to women. Mens brains also change as a take care of children and also suffer from postpartum depression. David levine experienced this first hand after the birth of his son. He joins me today to talk about his experience. Also here to talk about that are a Remarkable Group of scientists, Catherine Dulac, Susanne Shultz, Charles Nelson margaret spinelli, and my cohost, dr. Eric kandel. He is a Howard Hughes medical investigator. Im pleased to have all of them here at this table this evening. Guest in discussing the biology of parenting, we are going to discuss a number of topics. One is the remarkable similarity of parenting throughout the animal kingdom. Were also going to discuss parental and collect and how discuss parental neglect and how disasters that can be. Were also going to look at the changes that occur imposed partum depression. In the last program, we considered the biology of aggression and we learned from David Andersons work that the hypothalamus is concerned with aggression. There are nerves in the hypothalamus recruited for aggression and they are located right next to rons concerned neurons concerned with mating. Moreover, there is a population in between that can respond to either of those two instinctual drives depending on the intensity of the stimulation. If you stimulate weekly, you recruit mating behavior. If you stimulate strongly, you induce fighting. This prospect of having cells mediating different aspects is the number one characteristic of the hypothalamus and part of parenting. Catherine dulac has discovered there are two populations of cells those concerned with parenting and those concerned with parental neglect. This has opened up a whole inquiry into the nature of the biology of parenting and we are learning a great deal about what leads to Good Parenting and what leads to parental neglect and what the consequences are. The interest in this began much earlier, in the early 1940s. A psychoanalyst turned out a remarkable study. He studied children isolated from their mothers at birth, living in two very different environment. One environment was connected with a prison where the women delivered and there was a nursery. The other was a founding home in which children were dropped off because they were abandoned by their parents or by their mother. The two institutions functioned very differently. In the nursing home, the mothers themselves took care of the infants. Because these were special times during the day they were allowed to interact with their infants they bestowed a lot of attention and affection on the kids. In the founding home, there were nurses assigned to the children and one nurse took care of seven children. As a result, he child received a limited amount of attention and lived in relative social and sensory deprivation. When these kids were examined one year later, the differences were quite apparent. The kids in the nursing home were like kids raised in manhattan they were happy they interacted well with the people around them. The kids at the founding home were anxious and not very curious about what was going on around them. At ages two and three, the difference is even more dramatic. The kids in nursing home in the nursing home talked and were gregarious with one another. The kids in the founding home, most of them could not walk, most of them could not talk and those that could talk could only express themselves with a few words. Subsequent studies have shown there is a critical time of development that if you deprive children of appropriate interaction or contact it affects them for the rest of their lives. A comparable time of isolation in later life has very little effect. So were going to have a wonderful discussion about these topics and we have five spectacular people here. We have Catherine Dulac who made this wonderful discovery. We have Susanne Shultz who has been interested in the evolution of parental behavior and hormonal changes in parenting. Chuck nelson has been studying a remarkable orphanage in romania in which children have lived in surprisingly isolated conditions. He is not only described the cognitive alterations but shown alterations in brain function and structure as a result. Mag spinelli is a psychiatrist like myself, except competent. Shes interested in postpartum depression and will tell us about hormonal changes associated with it and some of the things likely to increase the likelihood of of depression. 10 to 20 of women come down with postpartum depression. It also occurs in men and david is a person who suffered from this. The reason one doesnt know more about this is because most men are reluctant to discuss it. We are fortunate to have david here who is a physician and pediatrician and has the courage to discuss it, which is not only wonderful for us but beneficial for other people who might suffer from postpartum depression to realize that to talk about it is normal. This is nothing to be ashamed of and it may be helpful for both the person who suffers from it and the people around him. We are in for a terrific program that could make us better parents, grandparents and godparents. Charlie let me ask this question of how we behave as parents is wired into the brain, a central aspect of our conversation. Guest human parents nurture their young and these behaviors are essential to development of the child. In addition, parenting is one of the strongest and most enduring social bonds in human societies. Remarkably, parental behavior is widely concerned in the mammal kingdom. Females lactate and take primary responsibility of frontal care as can be seen in this very nice slide, the female chimpanzee is watching over the first step of her child. Females are very maternal not only in mammals but in some species of birds, frogs, reptiles and insects. What about fathers . The contribution of males is very vulnerable. In some species, as seen here in these silverback mountain gorillas, and some species males are paternal, they nurture their young. In other, males attacked the children and sometimes kill them. I am a narrow biologists neor obiologist. Try to understand the basic pilot g of parental behavior. We would like to identify the brain areas involved in driving parental behavior and we would like to understand how these rain areas are regulated. In order to have animals that are parenting and some that are neglecting their infants. In females, mothers as well as nonmothers are spontaneously maternal, which means when they are put in the presence, they will put them in the nest and huddle with them. In contrast, males are infanticide. A will regularly attack the pups and kill them. However, males that have access to the females become paternal free weeks after mating with the female which corresponds exactly to the gestation time. In other words, males who become fathers also become paternal. We took advantage of these extremely interesting paradigms in behavior between males and females and fathers and infanticide all males to discover what are the brain areas involved with this behavior. The first question we ask our what are the neurons that drive behavior . In the first set of experiments, we identified a specific set of cells in the hypothalamus that are activated during parental behavior. We then ask are these neurons required for parental behavior . We genetically ablated these neurons in rental males and parental males and parental females and surprisingly and remarkably, none of these animals neglect their infants or attack them. This experiment the success shows these are required for parental behavior. In the next experiment, we asked if the activity in these neurons was sufficient to drive rental parental behavior. We took aggressive males and artificially stimulated these nurturing neurons. Amazingly, the aggressive male stop attacking the pups and instead, they groom the infants. What this experiments as is the activity of these neurons is sufficient to drive parental care. In another experiment, we identify a set of cells in a different area of the hypothalamus that is activated when aggressive males attacked their infants. We call these this the parental neglect neurons. In another experiment, we activate these neurons in females and found these neurons, instead of caring for their infants now neglect or attack them. So overall, this series of experiments suggest the brain has two components a set of cells in the hypothalamus that drives parental behavior and another set of cells that drives parental neglect. We are very excited by these results because it opens new opportunities to understand the control of parental behavior and possibly why some animals are parental and some are neglecting or attacking these infants. Parental behavior is widely observed among animals, so these also raise the possibility that the function and regulation is widely conserved across the animal kingdom. Charlie how do you stimulate the neuron and to make the aggressive males mourner more nurturing . Guest we stimulate neurons that have been modified and have a channel that is light activated. We drive the activity of genetically defined population of neurons. Charlie fascinating. Charlie let me talk about how it has all evolved. Guest what is very nice about what catherine has told us is that parenting is conserved across animals. What is interesting is that it often varies. There are similarities between species and there are differences between closely related species. Our work is trying to understand the evolutionary basis for some of these parenting behaviors and why is it you have some parenting thats very different . As you can see this is a video of a gorilla mother and her infant. This is one of those things we want to understand what is similar about humans and our caregiving and parental behavior in other animals . In the biology of mammals, females, it means there are hormones that are important in determining lactation, driving the production of milk and the let down reflex. These hormones are very important in regulating the behavior of mothers and their infants. Two of these hormones are oxytocin and prolactin. At the end of regnant see, the pregnancy, the hypothalamus, the same part of the brain were catherine discovered the parenting hormones, produces proxy toes and primarily important physiologically in the production of milk and lactation. However, it is important in driving maternal behavior. Oxytocin has these secondary impact on the brain such that when oxytocin levels are raised, females bond with their babies. This hormone is incredibly important in driving this relationship. Another hormone produced is prolactin which is important in the production of milk. It also has consequences for maternal offspring bonding. Thats interesting because we have this biology that allows females to produce milk, but they are also incredibly important in driving the relationship between mothers and their offspring. Its also shown to drive social bonds in general with other animals, so it seems like one of the base relationships tween two individuals for mammals is the mother offspring bond and its important in determining pair bonding between the relationships of males and females and more widely social relationships. There has been some fascinating work done to understand the evolutionary behavior, especially of pair bonding between males and females. There is a nice system in full square some are polygynous and some are monogamous. The prairie vole is an example of monogamous pair bonding that are nurturing toward their young. What has been found in this system is that not only are there higher levels of oxytocin, but in the mails, theres a similar hormone produced by the hypothalamus which is important in determining pair bonding behavior. In a monogamous species, there are more present. Oxytocin in female is important and driving maternal behavior and in males, it plays a similar role in driving pair bonds. There was a fascinating series of experiments determining both how oxytocin impacts female maternal behavior and mail pair bonding and paternal behavior. Charlie is it monogamy that produces the high levels of oxytocin or is it higher level of oxytocin that produce monogamy . Guest oxytocin is primarily involved with the maternal behavior. What is quite interesting is some of the tame some of the same teams that work on how that relates to pair bonding have shown you can take species that are not monogamous and had that and make them switch to being monogamous. You can actually change the hormones and it changes their behavior. In a larger context, understanding what makes humans special, or what is it about human biology that is both similar and different to other primates. One thing thats remarkable as we have a very large brain and exceptionally long juvenile and infancy times. Because we are born so helpless and unable to take care of ourselves, parenting becomes exceptionally important. Human babies are totally defenseless and even throughout their juvenile time, they need more investment either parents than similar species closely related to us. That tells us that in humans particularly, understanding the role of parenting behavior is very important. Charlie what are the effects of children deprived of nurturing . Guest as you can see here, this infant and mother are having a wonderful conversation. This mother is in love with this baby and is what you want to see in all mothers. In instances of profound deprivation, all of that is missing. Here, we have a pair of twins interacting. But here we have institutional care. The thing to notice is the sheer number of babies and the lack of caregivers. As you look through here theres one that you can see in the back. This is a very low investment in these children, unlike the piece we saw in the beginning. This lack of social interaction plays a fundamental role in building the brain. What we started to observe is in this study, what happens to the developing brain in kids growing up in institutional care. We had a manipulation where we saw a large number of children abandoned to institutions in romania. After studying them, some were placed in high quality foster care and some are placed in an some remain in the institution. I want to show you a video of a child around the age of two. The girl who is rolling over is 22 months of age. Her iq is below 50. Shes been in the institution and notice the other little girl is rocking. There are three or four other kids rocking and that is characteristic of kids who grow up in institutions. The question becomes what happens to the brain . And the next slide, im going to show you the beginning of the journey to understanding the brain. We recorded the brains electrical activity by placing sensors on top of the head. The billions of neurons we have generated electricity we can pick up. From there, we can infer the power the brain is producing. How much electrical activity is there. We can color code that which indicates more or less power. On the right side, you see an image of ad never institutionalized brain. You are looking at this from the top down. Its portrayed here to reflect much more brain activity in red sitting over the frontal lobe. On the left panel, that is the institutionalized group. The brains of the kids in the institution are underpowered. Instead of a 100 watt lightbulb, its a 40 watt lightbulb. At that time, we became concerned. When the children were eight to 10, we performed Magnetic Resonance imaging on them. On the right is an m. R. I. Scan and we are showing here gray matter which represent the cell bodies and appendages of the neurons that sit on the cortical surface and do the computations and calculations of the brain. White matter shows up white and gray matter shows up gray. On the far right, you see the amount of gray matter in the never institutionalized these are children who grew up in families in bucharest, romania. If you look at the children on the far left, it is dramatically reduced. They show less gray matter as do the kids in foster care. What this is showing us is the brain has much less gray matter why the function of being in an institution. We show the same reduction and white matter. What is scary about this is that its we know there is a smaller brain as a function of being an institution. Guest this is so important because before chuck did these studies, people knew deprivation and a lack of parental interaction was bad for the Cognitive Development of children. We did not know the degree to which it affected the brain directly. This is the first evidence that shows dramatic changes in the brain. Charlie what to be different if there were some kind of activities with these kids much more collegiality from outside . Guest in a moment, we will talk about what happens when you put kids in families. Your question is can you improve an institution . Guest and does it have to be the parents . Can it be parental substitutes . Charlie it doesnt have to be the parents, but it has to be caregivers that care for the child. Charlie is it as simple as your brain will develop if you can feel there is some contact and someone knows who you are and there is some active caring . Guest absolutely. Social interaction is what is stimulating Brain Development and it is the lack of social interaction. Kids in an institution who got cognitive and linguistic stimulation but no caregiving got would be just as poorly off. Now the question is how much recovery is there . In this study, we placed half the kids into highquality foster care. At the beginning of this video when she is 22 months of age. Right after this, we put her in foster care and this is her in foster care eight months later. Her iq is in the mid60s. This is her interacting with her foster care other. Mother. They have this loving relationship and this is eight months of foster care. In this clip, she is four years of age and has been half her life in foster care. Look at that interaction. This is the same little girl in the beginning who is crawling backwards and rolling over and had no language and now her iq is in the 80s. This tremendous recovery can occur by placing children into a family. But it seems to be regular did by critical time which means placement before the age of two years of age leads to much better outcomes. Placement after that leads to much less desirable outcomes. On this slide, we can show that eeg. On the right is the brain of the never institutionalized child. In the next slide, we see the critical time. This is institution after age two. It looks identical to the institutionalized brain. The child is in a family, but not until they were older than two. Now the children placed before they were two years old looks just like the kids who were never placed in an institution. What we see is an Inflection Point in development. Removal from an institution and placement to a good family before two leads to better outcomes. Charlie so timing is everything and a at the ceiling on how much you can do. Guest its a window of opportunity that is reduced. Guest you can see this in simple systems there was a simple experiment where they had monkeys were they did not have light for the first year or so. They were blind for the rest of their lives. They did an experiment involving binocular interaction. We see with both eyes and it gives depth perception. If you close one eye and keep it closed during that critical time and open it up, that i has lost eye has lost complete control. The other eye has taken over. This applies to every system. This is a magical time in the development of sensory and social interactions. Guest what is interesting is how key the social interaction is. If you are thinking about vision, its easy to see how that relates to the brain. Guest in the brain studies which i find so fascinating, we can get an idea of what is going on. We know when a child learns something or anyone learned anything, the connection between nerve cells strengthen. You actually see a growth of synaptic connections. I would presume you are losing connection because you are not learning a darn thing. You are probably speaking at the pair bonding that involves new connections forming. Guest it is interesting also that infants that are not cared well are not necessarily good parents. It will be interesting to look at the development involved in parenting. What happens charlie they are more likely to become bad parents . Guest when that pup grows up, it does not take good care of its pups. Guest we are seeing our children at 16. It could be pretty dreadful but the kids we put in foster care early enough have a better chance of being good parents. Charlie someone is looking at this program and saying how do i maximize the brain and intellectual development of my child. Is the simple answer engage . Guest enjoy and love the child. Charlie what about the argument of quality time versus time . Guest the position i take his parents worry too much. If they spend time interacting with their babies and talk to their babies and do all of the things we are biologically programmed to do, they dont have to worry. Will they give them an iq of 150 . Thats irrelevant. Thats not what makes us special as a species. Ecologically in our offspring. Guest i think were going to hear more, but being a too anxious is not a good idea as a parent. Guest i want to make one other point and that is that institutions also vary. Institutions can do a good job raising children who are there if they have appropriate staff to do it. What was wrong in this study is one nurse for seven children is inadequate. They have to listen to this program. Charlie when parents arent present, their ability to nurture may be compromised. Talk about postpartum depression. Guest most women start out the first days after birth with mood changes, but they usually resolve on their own. About 10 to 20 will have postpartum depression. We now know people who are at risk are those with either a personal history of depression a history of depression associated with childbirth Family History of depression twin gestate asian also seems to twin gestation also seems to be a participant and it also is worth noting that impoverished women and women with many life circumstances have twice the risk of the women i just spoke about. We tend to be very vulnerable after childbirth. In fact, women are more vulnerable to psychiatric illness immediately after childbirth and they are at any other time in their life. This was a study done in edinburgh in which 15,000 women were followed over 12 years. He found an increase in psychiatric admissions within the first three months postpartum. A formal diagnosis of postpartum depression requires a fourweek onset. Even if it occurs within the first year, we continue to call it postpartum. Some postpartum depressions will begin during pregnancy. About 50 begin during pregnancy. One other time to be careful of is moms who stop breastfeeding. At some point in that year or so for two years, i have had women come into my office who manifested major depressive symptoms immediately after stopping lactation. The clinical manifestations of women who come in, they are profoundly sad and have terrible anxiety. They feel overwhelmed that every task and they are usually unable to sleep, even unable to sleep when the baby sleeps, so that is unusual. What is unfortunate is they feel they cannot connect with the baby. They feel numb and they feel terribly guilty about this and usually label themselves bad mother. Bonding with the baby they dont feel at all attached to the baby. They are not interested in interacting with the baby and it makes them feel awful. Suicide can be a real concern at this time in mothers who are seriously depressed. There is another symptom that will occur in a few women who have postpartum depression. They have substantial ruminations all day long that a might hurt their baby. They become intolerable and they are really tortured. These are not women who want to kill their baby, these are women who have anxious ruminations that are very distressing. Having said that, i want to quickly discuss postpartum psychosis because postpartum psychosis is very different from postpartum depression. Its actually a very rare disorder. It occurs it may be one in 1000 deliveries, though it is more prevalent in women who have bipolar disorder. These women need to be hospitalized and we consider it a psychiatric emergency because mom has to be separated from her baby for her own safety and her infant safety. They have lost contact with reality and may have hallucinations or another psychotic thought may compel them to kill their baby. Thats one of the saddest circumstances. Speaking of the adverse effects that occur in children with a postpartum depression, they seem to have insecure attachment. They cannot tend to the infants emotional needs. They also have some Cognitive Impairment because of the parental failure to encourage interest in the environment or curiosity and will often have behavioral problems because of the parents own irritability or hostility during the parenting time. Over the course of pregnancy as you can see in this slide, there are hormones, which increase over the 40 weeks of identity. Pregnancy. At the time of delivery, theres a precipitous fall within 24 hours, which is kind of a shock to the system. These hormones, estrogen and progesterone, feedback on to the hypothalamus, which is the emotional part of the brain. There are some women who are exquisitely sensitive to hormones and hormone changes during a lifetime. The most important component of parental caregiving is responsiveness to the infant. This is how i mom reacts to her baby she speaks to the baby the baby has emotional needs there is a kind of mutual emotional dance that goes on between them. But when a mom is depressed, what she says is she cannot attach to her baby, she cannot respond to the babies needs or the babies smile. Charlie what is the percentage of men who have post partum depression . Guest very underrecognized and very underresearched. Probably between 5 and 10 . Guest the stigma of Mental Illness is something i see every day as a pediatrician. Not being able to talk about something, whether it Mental Illness or any treatment, if you cant get help, i think it did delay me seeking treatment. In my opinion in america, a man is associated with several things, but weakness and helplessness are not considered to be masculine behaviors. That was what i experienced. When i was going through my postpartum issues with my wife i would say to her i worry that by telling you this, you will think less of me, that it will affect your perception of me because im supposed to be the strong husband and here i am charlie tell us what you are feeling. Guest what ended up happening hit me off guard. I was very excited to have the child and was very happy when we found out we were having a boy and i suffered no symptoms anytime during my wifes pregnancy. The first week of life everything was fine. I was at work but i had taken weeks two and three off to spend time at home. My wife was on Maternity Leave as well. Thats when my feelings started to change. In retrospect, my sadness came out as more frustration and anger. I felt rejected, i felt as if my son was rejecting me. He was a very ethical child to difficult child to calm down. He cried a lot, even if he was well fed and changed. He did not soothe very easily. I viewed that very differently than my wife did. My wife connected to him and was nurturing and there were times i just did not want to be around him. There was one instance where i was so angry and frustrated that i just had to leave the apartment and walk outside because i could not be around him. I did not seek any help at that point because i was going back to work and i figured things would just get better. But of course, they didnt. When i would come home from work and my wife would hand my son to me, he was starts crying and i would hand him right back. I would start to denigrate him and say very mean things about my son and this would upset my wife as much as for what i was saying as much as how i was feeling. During this time, i started to have some images in my head. That were not pervasive but they were there. Unfortunately, they did involve me harming him. Then harming my wife and then harming myself. It was at this point i realized i need some help. I spoke to my physician and he gave me zoloft and i took maybe four doses. I dont think i was prepared to take medicine. I had been in therapy for mild anxiety and i was comfortable with that. I found one person who does postpartum depression but i did not make the phone call. I think there was part of me that thought this would just get better, but of course it did not. At around week five or six, i probably said something particularly heinous that morning and i left for work and i called my wife to apologize and make sure we were still on for that weekend where one of the grandparent was going to come and watch my son and we were going to run some errands and maybe get some lunch and i thought i heard her know and i no and i just lost it. I started crying and finally all of these things i was thinking and saying had finally come back and it was going to sever my bond with my wife which i needed so much at that point. Of course, that was not what she said and she said you need some help. I said we need to get a night nurse to help us with some sleep. I got to work and called one of my good friend who has two daughters and told him some of what i was experiencing. He told me it was not unusual and i should make some phone calls. That day, i called the therapist and by the next week, i was seeing somebody who i ended up seeing for the next three months. The night nurse started and i was starting my cognitive behavioral therapy. One thing they went over was these feelings are thoughts, they are not actions and they should not real bad that i felt this way, i just have to see them for what they were. They were negative thoughts not based on reality. My son was not rejecting me. He was not ill, he was seeing the doctor, theres nothing to act up what i was thinking and i had to do a lot of homework to help myself through that. By the time he was three months, i was going to take some time off. Up until that point, it was looking dicey. Thankfully, through the therapy and him just maturing and we ended up having a great month. I finally felt like a parent. I changed all the diapers. I felt like i gained so much at the time. Hes 18 months old and i have a great wife. Charlie and he loves you. Guest he does and i believe that. Thinking back, it was another person experiencing that. As i realized, i looked online for information and theres not much on paternal postpartum depression and i did not know what rates there were and i never had anybody talk about it. Hopefully if somebody does see this and understand what they are going through is not unique, that they can get help and hopefully dont have two go through that. Charlie let me just say to anyone watching, theres an admiration for coming to share your story. Im sure you sharing your story will benefit someone else. I wonder if in fact, and its so much easier to say if you reached out from the very beginning when you felt this, at that time you did not realize it was a problem. For someone to give you more context and say your son is not rejecting you, hes being a baby, that would have made a difference. Guest when the time comes and we have another child, i will probably start seeing someone ahead of time to be on the safe side. Im assuming having gone through it once that i will the it will be more electable. But just to be on the safe side, as i never want to have those feelings again, i will be talking to someone and make sure if they do pop up i do have someone i can talk to. Guest one of the ground rules of psychotherapy is you can think anything. That is, you are allowed to entertain any idea you have in your head. Thats not action. That alone makes it comfortable knowing its not a terrible thing. Thinking is your privilege. Charlie everything that has been said here is fascinating to me and im not a parent. But i, godparent and i see lots of kids. I come away with this with a greater understanding of the absolute significance in the first two years of a babys life for there to be some kind of and this may be fundamentally understood by mothers around the world, but its not. How essential this is to what we now know about the biology of the brain and what happens to neurons. Lets talk a bit more about other places where children, of no fault of their own, and up perhaps by tragedy or something else, in a foster home. What are the implications of that . Are the rules the same . We have to figure out a way to find and connect to a child with love and to nurture. Guest i think its a little more complicated in foster care in the u. S. Because what leads a child to go into foster care can be complicated. It can be any number of awful things in the worst thing we do is in foster care is have repeated foster care placements. The critical issue is the sooner they are taken out of a bad environment and put into a good one, the better off it will be. The second thing is a trickier issue, adult last the city. Adult plasticity. Now you have a child who had an awful few years and they are showing all kinds of emotional problems. Its going to require more effort to get that child back on even keel. Its not impossible, but having gone through this, the parent needs to understand its going to take more. Thats another frontier, to harness the power of the adult brain and rescue these critical times and, in so doing, take a fiveyearold, 10yearold or 15yearold and get them back to where they should be. Charlie do you have research on that . Guest we have growing research on that. If you go back to the example of children born with a vision problem, there is work to suggest in the adult animal, few if you reat rear them in the dark for a while, you can treat adults for business, but we cant do that in a human. What we are looking for are things we can do in the human that will allow us to make up for a lack of that. Guest what is important is nonparents can be as nurturing as biological parents. This has been shown in animals as well. In rats, nonparent male and females will reject a pop. Pup. But if you expose these animals to pups several days in a row, they will build a nest and groom the pops. Pups. These suggest the brain areas that drive parental behavior can be activated in parents and nonparents. Guest the biology is becoming so interesting. We can tell when a woman has postpartum depression and how she responds to the child compared to a normal parent. We are at a very early stage and i think they are so fascinating in terms of the aggression. Charlie is there some point where nurturing reaches a vanishing level . Guest i think there is a point of diminishing returns. As a species, weve come to expect certain things and then it kind of like those which should take pressure off the parents to be perfect. Guest thinking of how humans evolved in what we traditionally did, the Nuclear Family is something quite recent and it comes back to what parents say about nonparental care theres a lot of different ways we can raise children with different kinds of support and investment. It doesnt all have to be from the parent. We get stuck into it moms have to bring kids up, but villages bring kids up. Its important to think about this nurturing can come from outside the family. Guest it is important to remember the extended family and interacting with grandparents and cousins. Guest if you look at traditional societies, its not always the family. Theres the risk of people thinking i dont have an extended Family Network and my child is going to suffer. High quality care can come from a lot of places. Charlie i know fathers who have said to me i really could not connect or identify with my child below two years old. Once he got to be three or four or five, it was much better. It seems to me that we are making the case here you should understand the rentable that nurturing is good and if you cant do it, figure out a way that it can be done. Guest what we are describing is that somebody needs to make an investment in the child. It doesnt necessarily have to be the biological parents. Guest the mom has to hear its ok if you dont want to be with them 100 of the time. If you want to go have lunch with somebody and leave the child with a friend, neighbor or family member, its not a bad thing but we have made it so the mother must be able to do everything and anything and thats what biology really has. Charlie what are we doing next . Guest we are doing gender identity. Charlie thank you very much. Rishaad todays the 28th of may, i am rishaad salaamamat, and this is trending business. in singapore heres a look at what we are watching. Shaky foundation. Some of the conditions were not met. Shares jumped initially but have since turned around. The widening scandal at fifa causing many to say they are concerned. Visa says their disappointment is profound. And the top luxury name for the 10th year. Prada s value fell 35 . Follow me at twitter. The hashtag is there. Here is what is going on market wise. Here is yourvonne. Yvonne they are headed for the longest rally since 1988. The nikkei climbed. That is because of the week yen. Continuing to weekend. Most of it is asian currencies. For the past five days, we have seen fluctuations