Obrien back at this table. Conan and the old guy now. Im the only guy now. Those are crazy times. One of the first shows a came on in 1993 was this show. No one thought i was going to make it. You were very nice to me. If we looked at that appearance now, it would look like in i love lucy those quote lucy cast. Charlie you had not done much performing when you took up with that show. Conan no. I had not done nearly the amount of performing one should have done to get a latenight show. It was a complete fluke. To this day i credit lorne michaels. He saw something and he said this kid can do it. But that was such a different time, 1993, that there was no footage of me that existed. The media could not find footage. Can you imagine today how much footage there is of everybody, there would be hundreds of hours of footage of me that i have posted on youtube and everyone would have it. There was not an existing photograph of me when they announced me for the latenight show. I remembered they were taking photographs of i think my appearance on the tonight show they took photographs of the tv screens. Charlie doing what you do and you know the difference because you now have a show similar to this online it is dramatically different from what you do. You think comedy every moment, dont you . Conan pretty much since 1978. I think about it all the time. Charlie David Letterman was here. He said, i would love to have the luxury you have because i am as curious as you are. My mind, i think about the joke rather than simply being curious with someone. Conan theres a certain pressure when you are hosting a show to help guide performers through their material. You dont have the freedom to always go exactly where you might want to go. I also love to have a conversation and go. And learn something. I tried to read as much as i can. I still think i have a curious mind, it is within the confines of doing a comedy show. You cant just sit back and maybe ask all the questions you would want to ask. Charlie with David Letterman stepping down, what is his magic and why is he so revered for who he is . Conan i read a piece for e. W. Magazine, and i was proud of it. It kind of some depth what i think is main contribution was. It takes people back to when his morning show came on the air in 1980. I called the piece. Everything he did seemed in that moment wrong. He did not look right, his manner was wrong. Everything seemed wrong because he was so original. He was so profoundly original. I think he is respected and revered because he has the whole package, the great innovative writing ideas. He came along at the right moment. Carson had been on the air about 20 years, had about 10 more years to go, and had really established the talkshow. Dave came along and gave us the antitalkshow. So much of the comedy was so different and he was so not about show business, and he was so outside of show business. His show felt like a revolution to me, and i think it was. I think it was a seismic occurrence. I think it affected a lot of the comedy in the 1980s and 1990s and for years afterwards. Charlie was it about the monologue or all about the skits, chopping watermelons off the top of buildings or the stupid pet tricks or conan those were great tricks. A lot of talkshow hosts in the genre, they have their routines their bits they assemble overtime. Daves are amazing. An amazing array of Great Concepts and ideas. He had that, but at the core of it, to me, David Letterman is a wit. He is an american wit. He is like a fred allen. He is an authentic, has an authentic, witty mind. Just watching that on display over the years and he first showed up, it felt like it was more about the stunts and how different it was, and over time you saw this laserlike mind. A whole generation of people like myself, if we got a chance to be interviewed by him or go on his show, we just wanted to impress him. It is aspirational. A few times in my life i have been told there is a phone call for you and its from David Letterman for some reason or another and the light is blinking, that blinking light has a different look than any other blinking light. Its the same way i felt the one or two times i got to advocat have conversations on the telephone with johnny carson. You get on and you are very aware that its always good to play tennis with somebody who is better than you. For everyone in my generation, David Letterman was and is the gold standard. [indiscernible] charlie that is just a lazy excuse. Conan no, hes constantly looking for a way not to do a show. He just likes to sleep. In tribute to dave on my last night i will show an episode of kimmel. Charlie what are you going to do on his last night . Conan im going to try to take some of the spotlight away from dave. This is what comics do. Im going to come out on the air, im going to do anything i can. I will be naked that night. No, its an interesting question. I have not given it a lot of thought. My nature that night, it was assumed nobody will be watching any of us anyway. What i would like to do is Say Something pretty much a very nice about David Letterman, and it comes from the heart, and we come on before he does until people to turn the channel. If there are nine people watching that night, if i can get eight of them then i have been successful. Charlie is the talkshow business at night changing . Conan yes. Its a whole different thing than when i started. When i started its hilarious to talk this way now about the old days, because i feel like im talking about the great depression, but when i began in 1993, there were hardly any of these shows. There was Johnny Carsons tonight show. And arsenio had been around for a while, but i think he had maybe two years left to go. It felt like it was johnny and it was dave, and in there is nightline, and that is it. Nbc had locked down a monopoly on the whole thing. It was a builtin audience. I cant tell you how many shows there are now. I have lost track. I think there might be 35 latenight shows. Theres a ton of them. Charlie i see how many people are on at 11 00. You, me, a lot of people. Conan theres a ton of these shows, the technology changed with cable, then the internet comes along. Tivo comes along, and the ability to watch things out of sequence. The latenight show, it started to become i often know that 11 00 or 11 30 at night, my choice would be to catch up on some of the shows i have missed earlier in the week. My Natural Inclination would not be i would not watch a latenight talkshow anyway just because its not i would watch your show before a latenight comedy show. I cant relax watching those. Im looking at the seams. Themes. That is no fun. The whole thing now, people can watch those shows a la carte. People watch a segment i did or a segment one of the jimmies did, or a segment that colbert these things go viral, people see those. When i see somebody on the street and they say i love that thing you did, they dont say i love that thing you did last night. They love that thing bouncing around online. People dont listen to albums anymore. They used to put sergeant pepper side one and side two. A lot of thought went into which song goes where, and for years i used to give a lot of thought to when things happen in the show. Now it does not seem as relevant when things happen in the show. Charlie are you thinking when you create a show now about that, or are you thinking ive got to find what i know will be sellable clips . Conan that is tricky. I always try to lead with what is funny. I think this is wood. If not, it is fantastic simulation. Charlie 25 years. Conan beautiful. Ikea. I think a lot about what is funny, but would make me laugh what would surprise me. Now, i know with the formula is. It is a very simple formula to have things go viral. Everybody knows what it is. Get a big celebrity and you get them to do some stunt, and it will probably go viral. It is called click bait. If you are just thinking about click bait, you will end up with a show that might have a lot of viral bits but maybe things you dont think comedically are that terrific. It is all where you want to put your priorities. If you can get both i have some remotes that go viral and i am proud of them comedically. They happen to get out of there, and that makes me the happiest. Charlie you have started doing remotes. Most recently you created a love attention because he went to cuba. Why did you do that . Conan when im on my own just on camera, but when im on my own improvising it seems to be something i have a knack for, and its a different energy. We are always looking for an opportunity, and ive gone to finland freshness, just liven it up. When the Obama Administration announced early in the year they would try to thought relations with cuba and work towards lifting the embargo, there was a lot of attention paid to it. Our head writer mike sweeney said, we should go to cuba. Everyone in the room said, thats fantastic. Then he was demoted. I dont know why. Then we went to work. We wanted to do it very quickly. Jeff ross immediately got in touch with found a producer who did work with European Companies in cuba. We met with him. He told us what he thought was possible and how we could try to get in. We wanted to do it without permission, under the radar. Charlie without permission from whom . Conan we did not want to call the state department and say are you ok with this . Who knows. They might say no. They probably would be wise to say no. What state department would want me to be the liaison in cuba . Charlie all you are doing was singing and dancing. And eating. Conan and a lot of drinkking. I drank heavily. When you hear a comedian wants to go to cuba, there would be any asking for permission its better just to go. We flew in, brought our cameraman with us, we do not have permission to do anything. Charlie here is an example of that production. Roll tape. [laughter] [applause] conan did anyone get that down . Thats a hit record. Charlie my impression is that is what you love to do, as much as anything. That is what you did when you were off, went on that tour. Conan what i absolutely love is when no one knew back in 1993, when nobody knew who is this guy, conan obrien, the media was calling anyone in my life they could find. Dan they called my roommate. We are still close friends. They found my College Roommate and said, conan obrien, who is conan obrien . How is he going to be different than any other latenight host . Eric said something that is very true. He said, conan likes to be funny with people. I read that and i thought, thats kind of perfect. I like to go out into the world, i like to do something funny with them. I like to make something funny happened, and i will play any part. If they are low, i will go high. It is a very musical approach to comedy, which is close to music, and whether im going to cuba, anywhere im going in the world or any comedy bit im doing, i love to find a rhythm with somebody, get something going, and im completely liberated. Im acting like a complete jack ass but in that world its pure joy. Charlie roll two. Conan these are everywhere. This is a cuban payphone. It enables you to make a call and get your hair permed at the same time. The only problem is, it will only call that guy. I am talking to that guy right now. I was worried my spanish would not be good enough here in cuba, but now i think i will be ok. This is a mercado or market here in cuba. Pretty typical. Take a look at you do not see this anywhere else. A whole row of just one product, one brand, that is it. I dont know what this is. Sweet wine. It just goes and goes and goes. We cannot film here. Not without authorization. Conan i dont need to. [speaking spanish] do you have that . Here it is. You do have it, ok. Charlie they have some. Conan yeah, that was a fun moment. We blurred his face out because we did not want him to get in trouble. Charlie john oliver was with us on the morning show the other day. He has eight or 10 writers, just one so show on sunday night which is all he needs and can handle. Do you have any writers . Conan i think i have 12 or 14. Charlie why do you need so many writers . Conan you never have enough. One writer, a good writer a great hitter is a. 300 hitter. Charlie 3 out of 10. Conan we need a lot of ideas. A really good usable idea is a hard thing to find. One very bright writer can come up with one once in a while. Charlie a bright writer can come up with one, once in a while. The home run. Conan a great idea. There is some sort of weird equation. If i had 150 writers, i would not be able to generate much more funny stuff. If i had five, he would not be enough. There is something about this number or you get you do the volume we do. We do four hours a week, we do about 190 shows a year. You need a lot of people because someone wont have it. Sometimes two or three writers are not firing. The other people pick up the slack. Some people are good monologue jokes. Some people are better at visual jokes. Charlie how much of it is you . You contribute a joke a night . Conan i edit my biggest contribution to the show is a ton of improvising on the show just because there has to be. You have an hour to fill, and we have discrete its an discrete monologue jokes. A lot of the laughs i get armie making fun of the jokes in between the jokes. Charlie thats a staple of what you do. Which carson did. Conan which carson did really well. The laugh is where you think its going to be. But i think my biggest contribution is as a host you are the editor in chief. People are bringing you a lot of material and you are saying, im not comfortable with this. I love this, but i would love to turn it upside down. Charlie a tv critic said, latenight television is the most static medium on tv. If youre most interested in tv as an economic horse race, each year we get fresh forensic analysis. Someone is always the hot young buck. Yet every show looks identical as if the format had made the same face one too many times and got stuck. Do you agree with that . Conan which part . Charlie it all looks the same part. Conan i think there is a reason why a bicycle looks like a bicycle. You can reinvent the bicycle as many times as you want, but when the Wright Brothers were making them, which they did before the airplane, everybody that would be what i liken it to, which is it is a form that works very well, which is you want there to be a structure because then it is what you do with it. I think that certainly if you say its too many white males, i say absolutely too many white males. That is not just true with american talk shows. Ceos of companies thats a problem people talk about in latenight, and i think too many white males is a problem worldwide. Specifically about talk shows, i think it is all what one person does with it. I like to think ive had a very different creative approach to how to do one of these shows. But if you are someone who is casually checking these shows out and you are looking at eight bicycles, they just all look like ok, great. Wheel in front, wheel in back, drivetrain in the middle and pedals and there is a seat and a bell. Charlie and celebrity guests and others. Conan over time, what i find interesting is because there are so many shows, it is forcing i feel the heat all the time. I have been doing this 22 years now, and i have a secure contract and secure job, but i feel the pressure every day because there are so many people out there. Charlie it is more than just some measurement of how you are doing against other people. It is also you, too. You are your own toughest competitor. Conan yes, i have always been competing with myself. I dont want it just to become a job. I think that would become the greatest crime. There are days when it feels like this might be that time for you right now, charlie. Charlie i was going to say to you, what would you do if they took it away from you . And i said, they did. Been there, done that. Conan unlike Clint Eastwood they hang him early in the movie but then he shows up with a scar around his neck and kills everybody. Charlie i am writing a commencement speech for this weekend. I went back and looked at some people i respect. I looked at steve jobs. I looked at the one you had written at harvard, and several of us you had not done one in 11 years or so. You did a lot of things we all do. We talk about the place where we are, we talked a bit about lessons. The lesson you talked about was the lesson you and i had talked about before at a conference in aspen. It is this idea of what you discovered coming out of what might have been considered a big downturn. It turned out to be the biggest upturn of your life. How did that happen . Conan when i was hosting the tonight show, i was very much trying to probably please this sort of bold media idea. Such a mental, such a heavy mental. At the time it felt that way. This kind of crazy disaster it still feels comical and improbable, when the whole thing quickly fell apart, and i found myself without a job and not knowing what i was going to do, its very liberating. It is an amazing feeling. I dont recommend it. There are other ways to get that high. There is lipitor. I found it to be liberating first of all, i did not realize how much i was not nearly as internet savvy then as i am today, and what happened was a lot of the proconan forces rose up on the internet. It was very creative. Charlie it told you that you had a committed audience whatever the form was, they were waiting for you. Conan yeah, and they did not care where i was. They just wanted me to keep making things charlie that made them laugh. Conan that led to the tour. The tour was one of the best creative experiences of my life. Every night the show would change and i would do music, but i would also do comedy improvisation, but i also did stand up. And it was i think i lost about 20 pounds. Every night it was me on stage for two hours plus. When the show was over, i was drenched in sweat. I could not eat enough to keep the weight on. It was a very intense time, but very creative, and that led to this idea that i should just try things, i should try lots of things. Dont be afraid to fail. Dont be afraid to do a comedy idea that does not work out. People will forgive that in the short term. In the longterm they will remember what you find it works. I started doing a lot more of that, and i think the last 5, 6 years of my life have been particularly creative. And it all came from an event that on the surface looked like a terrible thing. Charlie how many twitter followers do you have . It is like 10 million . Conan i think its like 12. Charlie how often do you tweet . Conan once a day. Maybe twice a day. It is once a day, and its a joke. I dont tweet about what im eating. Everyone uses it i use it as a joke delivery system. Occasionally if there is something in the media and people want me to comment on that, that can be a good way to do that. You can send out a tweet. There are some things i still dont feel good about. There is a phenomenon now when someone dies, suddenly other celebrities are sending out tweets. We will miss you, rest in peace. It doesnt feel right to me. It doesnt feel right to me. So you know, that might be a generational thing. I dont know. Charlie you told the New York Times conan when i walk down the street, when someone is excited to see me, they are very excited to see me. Theres a lot of hugging, which i enjoy. Charlie if you see conan, hug him. Conan please, ladies, and that guy. It is very important to me that people know i mean it, they know it is real, but i am that person they see on television, and that i really am committed to this and it is not a facade and there is something behind it. I almost have a religious commitment to that. So, when i meet people who are interested in my work or appreciate it, i really want them to know that that really is me. Charlie you said to me once you said about this show and this table, this is a place where people come to talk. And we have used that, and in essence, it was how we define this program. Thank you for coming. Conan that is one of my favorite things to do. This and eat cheese alone in the basement. Charlie weeknights at 11 00 p. M. Eastern standard time. Conan thank you for having me. Charlie a writer and director, his 1996 novel was turned into a popular movie starring leonardo dicaprio. He also wrote the screenplays for movies such as 28 days later and never let me go. He is now making his directorial debut with ex machina. It follows a young programmer selected to participate in and experiment. His job is to evaluate the human qualities of a machine. Here is the trailer for the film. You are dead center of the greatest scientific event in the history of man. Ava hello. How do you feel about her . Shes amazing. Every cell phone has a microphone, camera, and means to transmit data. So i turned on every microphone and camera across the entire planet. I have redirected the data. My competitors thought that Search Engines were a map of what people were thinking, but it was a map of how people were thinking. Do you know they brought you here for me to test you . Does ava actually like you, or is she pretending to like you . Manipulation, sexuality are you attracted to me . I have something i want to show you. Ava, you have to help me. That is what would happen to me if i fail your test. Charlie im pleased to have alex garland at this table for the first time. Welcome. Congratulations on all you have done and on this film. Tell me your interest, your development of interest in this before it became a film. Alex im in my mid40s. My life has kept pace with the development of home computers. So, in some respect in probably started when i was a kid, 12 years old and getting a sense that this thing in the living room was somehow alive or had qualities it did not have, but you get this funny electric sense from a machine. And then when i was older starting to read about the issues of Artificial Intelligence and the kind of progress being made, and realizing the way it relates to understanding human consciousness and selfawareness and what our minds are. Charlie a subject of great speculation and obsession and curiosity among neuroscientists. Alex absolutely, and an area of no certain knowledge. It is an important thing to take on board. Charlie which is probably one of the reasons why they are so curious about it. Alex yeah. The thing we find so valuable in each other is our sentence sentience. What happens if you find or create that sentience in a machine . Charlie lets talk about Artificial Intelligence and have you define it. The trailer, which you did not make for your film, had a series of quotes i am familiar with. From elon musk, Stephen Hawking saying this could be the end of humanity, the developer and of development of Artificial Intelligence. What is it, and how could it marked the extinction of the human race . Alex the first thing you have to do is make sure one is not conflating different kinds of a. I. Because, we have Artificial Intelligence in all sorts of ways. And a couple watch. In couple watch shouldk an apple watch. Siri is an a. I. Siri doesnt know siri is siri. The google cars that part themselves do not know they are cars. Park themselves do not know they are cars. Selfawareness seems to be fundamental to consciousness in the way we know what we are, and animals know what they are. A dog recognizes its reflection in the mirror, clearly has consciousness of some sort. There is no machine that has that. The kind of ai that can get talked about is either a self aware machine that is then a machine like us in many respects and there are ethical considerations, but theres also other kinds of a. I. That are super intelligences which may not be super aware, but can be very powerful. I think Stephen Hawking and elon musk are worried about both kinds. I do think it is reasonable to be concerned. This film draws a connection with oppenheimer and his anxieties about developing nuclear bombs. There is something fascinating and quite important about developing nuclear power, but it also contains a lot of latent danger. You could hardly say that about ai, strong or otherwise. Charlie what was the driving idea for you . Alex a movie that had an agenda and was proposing questions they may or may not have answers to. Charlie to pose questions or bring answers . Alex more to pose questions because many of these questions do not have answers. Some do propose answers and they are embedded in the film in some kind of way. That was also trying to slightly reframe the way we look at a. I. It seems to me there was an enormous amount of anxiety about Artificial Intelligence, which is reasonable in many respects. But, i also thought there was Something Like a bit of paranoia and maybe it was bleeding over from a generalized tech or science anxiety. Charlie reflected by people like elon musk. Alex reflected by everybody. What science and technology does, always has done is it changes paradigms. I understand that, and that it makes people feel uncomfortable. In the case of a. I. , we perceive a. I. As being on a parallel track to us. It seems to be moving quickly. The fact that it is on a parallel track makes us feel rivalrous with it in some respects. If you pull a. I. Off to parallel track and bring it on to our track so it is a product of us, in the film that is presented as a relationship more like a parent and child so hence losing that they us out of deus ex machina. Suddenly the sense of the a. I. Moving away maybe has changed, it is less alarming because we want our children to have longer lives than us and as good as us, if not better. Charlie tell us what the turing test is. Alex an incredibly intelligent man with a lot of foresight. He would see the way computers would go and they would be an issue in terms of computers becoming conscious. He proposed a blind test which was really to see it sees if a human interacting with a machine that it cannot see can be fooled into believing it is interacting with a human. It sounds like a simple test but its very difficult to pass. Siri is a very advanced Artificial Intelligence, but no one is fooled into thinking that talking to a human is talking to siri. Its not actually a test for sentience, it is a test to see if you can pass the turing test. But that is very hard, and it would be an incredible achievement to do it. The film it tries to push that one step further. Ava, the Artificial Intelligence presented in the film, would certainly pass a turing test. This is not to do it as a blind test, but to demonstrate she is a machine and see if the participant in the test still feels there is a consciousness there. Charlie which makes me believe you went to a great deal of effort to create ava. How did you do it . Alex basically what we did was think according to the terms of the test. Which is, when she first walks out, she very clearly an overly is a machine. The viewers First Impression of her is that she is a machine. Then you begin to pull the viewer almost immediately from that. She is covered with a mesh that follows the contours of the skin, the actress that played ava. When the light glances off her a certain way, you see a female torso or a curve of leg or arm. As soon as a machine is established, you start to get away from it. Charlie who is caleb . Alex the young man who wins the competition to spend a week with the boss of his company. When he arrives to spend a week, he discovers he is there to take part in this postturing. Charlie this is caleb first meeting with ava. Here it is. Hello. Hi. Im caleb. Hello, caleb. Do you have a name . Yes. Ava. I am pleased to meet you. I am pleased to meet you too. Alex caleb is the audience of the character and broadly speaking, an audience and caleb should be having roughly the same experience through the film. Charlie you said this is by order of many multiples one of the easiest movies to be involved in. Alex we had a group of people a collaborative effort where everybody was making the same film, and often i have worked on projects films have a lot of people on them. We present them as if they are directors mediums, but i dont buy into that much. I see it as a collaboration. What happens within the collaboration, what happened is you get different people making different films at the same time. When that happens, it is miserable and tough. It gets political and brutal. This was a friendly straightforward. Something to do with it being a small indie movie. We are on a budget. Its like, theres a lot of camaraderie. We have got to shoot it six weeks, so everybody gets behind charlie did you do the casting . Alex we all discussed it. Anything you can ask about this, take it as a given it was a collaboration. What happens in this film is typically in a film structure you will have a few sevenpage scenes, maybe two or three. This has endless heavy dialogue scenes landing one after the other, and it puts a massive weight on the actors shoulders. There is a kind of actor who is primarily a charisma on the screen and they are not necessarily brilliant actors but they have a force. Sometimes for many films that is what is required. In a film like this it would be fatal for the movie. What we needed more than anything was three actors. Charlie isaac has some of that, doesnt he . Alex you can be a great actor and have charisma. I am not saying they dont have charisma, but these guys have the works. Charlie Danial Gleason said the great Science Fiction movies are human traumas as well. In my head, they tell you more about people than they do about machines. Alex yeah, scifi can do that. I like character driven drama wherever it is, whether it is a thriller or parallax. Yes, i agree with that. For me actually, the main thing about scifi is it does not have to be embarrassed about ideas. Cinema can be terribly uncomfortable with big ideas and feel sort of awkward about it, sophomoric. It doesnt sit inside an Action Thriller unless it is making a political point. Charlie it started alex i have no idea. We should not have any success with this film at all. It is a small, difficult movie in many respects as a film to sell. It doesnt have any super famous actors. It doesnt have any car chases. I have been working in film for a long time time. Maybe it has to do with a. I. Charlie you say it is not an uplifting film. Alex broadly speaking, that stems from who the viewer allies themselves with in the film. I am allied to the machine. If you are allied to the young man, you will have a very different take on how the thome the film plays out and what that implies. Charlie you are allied with the machine. Alex yes, i do. Charlie allied means what . Alex ava is a sentient creature. She is imprisoned, we make all sorts of mistakes about her, which is that she is like us but i dont think she is like us. She is like herself and that is what i find interesting about ava. I have to be careful talking about it. If i want the film to exist or fail on its own merits, i cant excuse it or lift it up or pull it down. It is what it is. Charlie this is click number three. This is what ava asks caleb what will happen if she fails the test. Ava what will happen to me if i fail your test . Will it be bad . Caleb i dont know. Ava do you think i might be switched off . Caleb i dont know the answer to your question. Its not up to me. Ava why is it up to anyone . Do you have people who test you and might switch you off . Caleb no. Ava then why do i . Charlie what do you want the audience to walk away from the theater with . Alex it is an ideas movie. What i hoped was it would be a thoughtprovoking film. Despite the fact that it does provoke the kinds of discussions we have had is basically a good thing. I wanted it to be a film with an agenda, but just to allow people or just present them with ideas they might find interesting, they might then talk about between themselves. Those are films i like, when other people make them. My golden era of filmmaking is the 1970s. There was a lot of that kind of film around then. You are more likely to find it on American Television then you are at the cinema these days. Because the rest been such a great since the sopranos, there has been a renaissance of adult drama on american tv. Charlie right, absolutely. It was recently voted one of the best pieces of the last 20 years. Alex it is one of the best film dramas ever. Theres a lot of other really good stuff. As a filmmaker i find it frustrating in some respects because taxi driver existed in cinemas many decades ago and now taxi driver in this incarnation is really breaking bad. I love cinema. The Cohen Brothers and pt anderson, their great people making films now, but something has changed. Charlie and people are watching them on smartphones. Alex smartphones and tablets, but in the comfort of their own home. When i was a kid, having a tv was like this big thing. In my house it was black and white. There was this huge contrast going to cinema. These days people have i kind of get it. It makes sense. Charlie it was great to have you. Alex many thanks. Charlie thank you for joining us. See you next time. At the hop