From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Nominations for the Academy Awards were announced this morning in los angeles. Birdman, boyhood, grand Budapest Hotel led the pack. Nine nominations each. The oscars will take place in hollywood on february 22. Joining me is matt from entertainment weekly. I am pleased to have him at this table. Welcome. Charlie, thank you for having me. Surprises in the announcements . All anyone can talk about is the socalled whitewashing of the acting categories. For only the second time since 1989, will be an actress nominations go to white men and women. It is trending and it is something that people are asking questions about what is the reason that they are white. This year . The last time it happened was 2011. I assume the leading person they thought was david. David, a fantastic performance as Martin Luther king. In addition to him, ava was the first opportunity to nominate an africanamerican woman for director. That did not happen. The combination of those two events has people scratching their heads. Take a look at who the actors were. They are all great performances and so is david. Stephen carroll, Michael Keaton. Two of those one at the golden globes. These are all great performances. It is hard to play the game where you swap one actor in for the other. What is the answer . I cannot tell you what the answer is. At the heart of this, we are talking about something that appeals to you at your core. I had a conversation with jessica and i was telling her what i love most about boyhood. It is a subtle film. Richard linkletter made this over the course of years and it 12 features his character growing up with Patricia Arquette as his mother. The movie appealed the scenes where ethan hawke is talking about how he sold the car and she said it was Patricia Arquette. Film like that, one film to someone for a variety of Different Reasons to boil that into why this film is difficult. Birdman . It blew me away. I dont know what to tell you. It was not going to be one of our covers despite the fact that Michael Keaton is a personal hero of mine. But we went to see that movie at Fox Searchlight pictures and the editor of the movie section and i just walked up and looked at each other. There is a thing you do when you go to see a screening. It is hosted by someone who is working with the company and you will not talk about that or they talk about it then and there. There are things you want to nitpick and it is not polite. We looked at each other. We gave each other this look and immediately huddled when we got outside and talked about rearranging things to put the film on the cover and that is what we did with a very arresting portrait of Michael Keaton. The screenplay was one of the most ambitious things. Best actress. I would say julianna moore. A lot of people feel like her for trail of a woman grappling with alzheimers is one for the ages. Felicity jones in the theory of everything. It carries an important point weight in that movie because it is the story of Stephen Hawking but there is another , side and Felicity Jones plays the wife. Best supporting actress . There was a gasp when laura dern was nominated. She planes plays a fantastic character. She goes on a long hike and tries to find herself in a voyage of inspiration. Laura dern has not been as much of a part of the conversation. It took a lot of people by surprise. Let us talk about grand Budapest Hotel. Very stylized. It made a fair amount of money. I believe it is 172 million. Thats enough to finance his next film. The prior three movies he created did not make as much money and you can ask why is that . Was is a Critical Mass of characters, the culmination of the career of wes anderson. Our people familiar enough with his personal brand that just hit the right moment . It is a combination of all of that. This is an imaginative film, and if you look at a majority, you are seeing biographies. We wrote about this. The surest way to end up nominated is to write something that is true to life or based on reallife or even easier, recent autobiography. What politicking might go on between now and the end of the voting . The most important thing is you need people who see your movie. That is one of the most difficult things to do. We have a weekly magazine we are putting out, everything from movies to books and the biggest challenge is to put aside time to see a movie that is three hours long. Just getting people to see your film is number one. Youre right. There is politicking that goes on, behind the scenes conversations. People try to find ways to cast dispersions on the films. That is one thing that has besieged selma. People are trying to say it is not accurate fictions of real life and filmmakers have to take liberties. Literary license. Matt, editor of entertainment weekly. The 87th annual Academy Awards will take place on sunday february 22. It has been one week since the attack on Charlie Hebdo. Al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claimed responsibility. The reporters who attacked received funding and training. The Al Qaeda Organization has capitalized on the alienation felt by members of the muslim community. The attacks have reignited a debate about islam and freedom of speech. Many leaders from the muslim world came to the unity rally despite domestic crackdowns. Joining us, reza, a professor from the university of California Riverside and the author of there is no god but god. Wilma cans from washington. A fellow at the Brookings Institute for the middle east policy. The author of temptations of power. I am pleased to have each of them here. Let me begin with this tweet you say the more that we present opposition to paris attacks and support the right to blaspheme the more likely we are to alienate muslims. We have to make it clear distinction here. There is not a Cultural Divide on the mass slaughter of innocents and we should not even suspect that french muslims would be ok with that. This presumption of collective guilt that we are wondering what the muslims really think, that is different than the larger issue of cultural attitudes towards blasphemy. That is where there is a divide in france and it is possible to condemn the killings but not be ok with the right to blaspheme. I think that is what you would hear most french muslims saying. But if we present it that the only way to be against the attacks is to blaspheme, we are putting french muslins in a difficult position. You said the following. the answer to islamic violence is islamic peace, the answer to islamic bigotry is islamic pluralism. Which is why i put the onus on the muslim community. But i recognize that work is being done and the voice of condemnation is deafening. if you dont hear it, you are not listening. That is correct. I think the issues with europe is that it is difficult to navigate the new cultural terrain of the continent. Europe does not look like it did 50 years ago thanks to mass migration and the porousness of the borders of the european union. Many europeans are facing a real identity crisis. Part of that crisis has to do with this incredible xenophobia, antiislamic sentiment that has gripped large parts of europe and has led to the rise of these neofascist nationalist parties like ukip in britain and the National Front in france parties who will be emboldened by what happened in the terror attack last week. Partly why i said that is that we have tended to as the result of this tragedy retreat to preconceived positions, be it the muslim notion that europe is virulently antimuslim or the european rights notion that moslems are a fifth column. They dont represent or accept european guys, therefore they have no place. My argument was that for there to be a middle ground here it has to come from muslims themselves, european muslims who are providing a counter narrative to the orthodox puritanism that has infected the communities across the continent. Michael, i raise this question. Elliott abrams used to be on the National Security council and said the people doing these , things view themselves as good muslims. That has to be addressed and explained. Of course they do. We have seen a trend to say they are not muslins. They are muslins. There are good muslims and bad muslims and good muslims and bad christians. What we have to get away from is the collective eyes asian collectivization. We cannot lump muslims in one category. There might be cresud is that crusaders force free speech among the muzzling community. We should not set this up as an us versus them where we are talking about the French Society reaction and then the muslims as a discrete set. I would imagine there would be concentrations of use, but also a spectrum of views much like in other communities. And so i think getting away from the collectivized notion where the actions of some represent all is an important job across the board. So yes, they are muslims. There are problems in corners of the muslim world. There are problems in muslim majority countries with radicalization. These are issues that are a part of the story of islam today. Maybe not the vast majority of muslins but they are part of the story that has to be addressed. What ought to be the debate . I think the debate should be about the limits of free speech, particularly in the United States versus europe. They both have very different definitions of what constitutes free speech and what passes for offensive. I would note that in france, and in many countries in europe, they have laws against denial of the holocaust or defaming jews. There is a bit more of a past when it comes to speech against muslins, but theyre also the laws can be restrictive and people have gone to jail in the u. K. For spreading libel or slander or condemning an entire group. The United States is much more freewheeling and all of us have a much more American Experience of these things which is why i do not think any of us are calling for the curtailment of free speech but i think all of us also understand there is a lot of sensitivity among muslims to negative depictions of the profit mohammed. I would hope that responsible citizens would be sensitive to those sensitivities in the muslim community. I want to do this because i have wanted to do this for a while. What is the difference between the terms islamist and jihadist . It is a very important question because right now there is a tendency to cast all islamists as the problem but we have to make distinctions. An islamist is someone who believes that islam should play a role in public life. Thats how they act politically. Many islamists participate in democratic elections and believe in political parties, some degree of pluralism. But if we are talking about jihadists and the radical islamists they do not believe about these things. The idea of having a parliament where people can vote, that is anathema. The idea of lumping them all together, we forget that isis and other extremist groups accused groups like the Muslim Brotherhood of being disbelievers. Even within the world of islam you have considerable diversity and we have to figure step back have to take a step back and say there are different approaches to expressing islam through politics. We as americans do not have to like islamists but we do have to make an effort to understand them. If we say all islamists are the problem we will push people to , be more radical because they will not feel they have a stake. The distinctions and nuances are critical. Some groups are violent and some are not, but it is worth interrogating the center of islamist thought. What does that mean . In terms of its impact on the intellectual landscape . Is it a Conveyor Belt . Is it a a way station on the way to radicalization . Is it a buffer . My theory is that it is both. We do have to look at even mainline islamism, what is its impact in terms of shaping the political narrative and whether it is a contributing factor, despite nonviolence, to further radicalization. Help me understand what they are finding and where in the carranza to get this. Koran is a source of violence where in the koran they get this . If you are asking me if the koran is a source of violence for groups like isis, of course it is. It has verses that can be construed towards violence and those that can be construed towards peace. But we tend to emphasize the violence. Every person of every faith in the history of the world does. We bring values and norms to scriptures, we do not extract them from our scriptures. It is an important point to make because if they are trying to make the point that islam is responsible for violence and in islams name, he must be prepared to accept that islam is responsible for the good things carried out in islams name. That is the difficulty of talking about these issues of islam as a unitary idea, that it promotes this or prohibits this these are nonsense phrases. Islam is what a muslim says islam is. A muslin is anyone who declares himself to be a muslin. Yes, it is true that isis is muslim and the Charlie Hebdo attackers were good muslims. But it is also true that the people who are fighting isis are good muslins, the people they are attacking are muslim. What does this say about islam . Not much. This is not about islam. This is about what . It is about individuals, the way they interpret their faith, navigate their faith in a modern society and how they reconcile the modern world and whether they can reconcile those values and beliefs. It has religious roots and also cultural and nationalistic roots and all of those need to be wrapped up in any conversation we had about religion and we have about the role of religion and violence. Religion is a part of the story, so i think this debate is quite arid because of the bigotry that exists on one side and the reluctance to broach the fraught topics. The state of islam is a topic because of the bigotry that exists. There are issues of radicalization and that is a part of contemporary islam. It is not the majority story but it is a reality and we have to face up to that. Go ahead. We have to take religion seriously but i worry that if we focus too much on religion, we forget the political context. If we want to understand isis we cannot understand that without looking at the the political vacuum that emerged in syria. That did not happen by itself. There are policy decisions by the International Community that helped contribute to the rise of isis. The interesting question then is how does religion interact with these political factors . We have to bring those different variables into focus and i think we lose some of that, we lose the complexity if we are just saying islam is a problem. On the other hand, as reza pointed out, they believe they will be put into paradise and that is a thing we should not inspirationmotivation is a very powerful thing that we should not underestimate. Ideology is a force multiplier on the battlefield. If we want to understand how 900 isis fighters were able to overtake the second largest city in iraq against a force of the 30,000, lesson is that a small group of committed individuals who are willing to die for their cause can do amazing things, amazingly bad things, with very small numbers. Let me go to this point. Tom friedman said that the United States needs to confront saudi arabia about their connection to wahabi. It is a short step to the violent extremism by the Islamic State. On the relationship between ultraconservative islam and the Islamic State, it is true that there is a strong connection between those ideologies and if i could go back to something reza was talking about, there are different strains but some of those are quite conservative and retrograde. And wahhabism is one of those. It is a more International Form of syllogism syllogism. It is no accident that in the towns the Islamic State controls, they were distributing saudi textbooks. They are very hostile to the other and while we have to be careful not to draw a Straight Line to terrorism, certainly those teachings do not increase pluralism. Are we going to witness this competition for headlines and competition for adherants . Certainly there will be a competition, there has been for the past years. 23the feeling among many in the al qaeda orbit is that the Islamic State has stolen their thunder because they combine two very powerful ideas in islam. One is the return of the caliphate or the early islamic empire and the other is the apocalypse or the end of the world and they have knitted them , together to attract recruits. What you think about that . If we want to understand isis, they are revolutionary organization in that they are doing things that other extremist groups have not really done. Establishing a caliphate over a large piece of territory. Al qaeda would talk about the caliphate as an inspiration but they would not go there because the idea of a caliphate historically is a powerful symbol for even moderate muslims who look back on the golden age of islam when science and medicine and technology, muslims were doing amazing things. Being able to appropriate the word caliphate has been brilliant marketing on the part of isis and they have done it. Where al qaeda is good at destroying things, isis has an interest in governance. In the territories it controls it provides law and order, runs local administrations. It is the alternative for the average civilian or iraqi is absolute chaos and they might say we do not like isis, we hate their ideology, but at least they are providing some degree of stability and order. They might choose isis rule over chaos. Thats what we have to keep in mind. Do you believe let me raise this question among all of you. Do you believe as the worlds attention has been focused that on paris and what has happened there. Will this the looked on as the possibility of being a transformational moment . I doubt it. We hear these war on terror cliches, that did not work out the first time around. And of course when we look at the scope of the threat, sometimes we collectively need a degree of stoicism. This is not an existential threat, it is a serious problem that many countries of the west will have to grapple with for some time to come. But the notion that our way of life is threatened is not true. I think the unity rally was a great thing but it was preaching to the choir. As i was watching it the thought that kept going through my head is that the jihadists must be besides themselves with glee looking at what they were able to provoke by giving lesson two dozen people. If you look at the al qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula statement claiming the attack, they said it was a transformational moment using almost identically the language you just used but it was transformational because it provoke this kind of response with a small attack. With those people who might be susceptible to listening or joining some kind of radical extremist organization, some of this will make it more of an inducement to join . Absolutely. The less you treat them as normal criminals, and the more you highlight the spectacular nature of their attacks, the more they are in the media, the more electrifying it is for the fringe and the more they want to get involved. It is not a lot of people but it will be enough to carry out these attacks. I worry that that is the high point of the unity and we will start making the same mistakes we always make after terrorist attacks. Which are . The goal of groups like al qaeda is to provoke western powers to things they otherwise would not do. They want us to overreact. If Marine Le Pen gains more Political Support because of the attacks, that would be a godsend to al qaeda because they would say to their potential supporters, look how about how bad europe is. They will never accept muslims and they have a far right leader stigmatizing the community. If we are looking at turning points, the turning point will not happen in paris. The turning point will happen in the heart of the arab world, in pakistan. It is going to have to be the rise of organic antimilitancy. And an eventual embrace of pluralism. And we are a long way off. It does not change in europe. How does it start . What is interesting is that the rise of isis, i think, and the spectacular violence, has had an impact in terms of producing an antimilitancy in the arab world. And i think the trouble is, it is a catch22, it is tied to authoritarianism. We see this in egypt clearly where you have a strong antiisis sentiment that has grown up without instigation from america. The problem is that it is tied up to dictatorial autocratic power. That is the sort of trap that the arab world faces. Until we see ways for them to tackle it without being repressive, that is the way in which this problem can be dealt with in the longterm. Thank you so much, great to see you. Reza had to leave early. It was a pleasure to have all of you. The conversation continues and we will be back in a moment. Stay with us. Michael mann is here, he is the director whose movies include the insider and heat. Blackhat takes us into the world of cyber crime. President obama has said that Cyber Security risks are some of the economic challenges of the 21st century. Here is the trailer for blackhat. Some hacker is hitting the financial markets. Four major banks. If we want clues, we need men. He is a convicted hacker serving 15 years. M. I. T. , genius coder. I want you to commute my sentence. Those are the terms. Is he political . He is on the move again. This is only the beginning. Mama, take this badge off of me the real hit is yet to come. Knocking on heavens door this isnt about money. This isnt about politics. I can target anyone. Anything. Anywhere. I am pleased to have michael mann back at this table. Unpack this movie for me. Take me from idea to script to cast to research to film. It started in a room with myself, thomas who is legendary. We were looking for something cutting edge, larger, as the world is right now. I was interested because of the narrative which was fascinating. The worlds first stealth drone. The famous case in iran where it attacked the centrifuges. I came to understand it was about the malware. One component is to take out the monitoring. The centrifuge fittings are fine while another part opens a backdoor while another part spins the centrifuge erratically. Take down what discovers you. It was like a chess game in reverse. And the coders have egos and shout outs and references to themselves and reminders. It became dramatic as the veil lifted and i was not aware, was not personally aware of the degree of interconnectedness. It is not an object or an application. We are fish, it is our medium. To dig a little deeper there, you went to washington and talk to Cyber Security experts in the government. I talked to Cyber Security experts, mike rogers. Chairman of the house intelligence committee. Not now. And black hat hackers, like kevin polson who is editor at wired magazine. He went to prison . He went to prison for five years and came out and wrote kingpin. They come up with great names for themselves. About what motivates you, what is the high, what is the experience . To understand the personality and the character of the hacker. Why do they do it, what is the charge for them . Is it about money, fame . 15yearold kid, adept at it, he has a firewall that says you cannot come in here, you want to bet . Did you figure out whether we can keep up with them or are they always going to be able to get in . They are always going to get in. If they cant today, somebody will discover a vulnerability on thursday. It is a constant evolution because it is ubiquitous. Anybody with a fast enough laptop and skill set can go exploring and find a way in or groups of people can find a way in. The more sophisticated hacks like sony had to be done by state authors with teams of coders for a period of time. It became who is this character, where is he from . In this brave new world we live in, a detective is trying to find and stop the cyber criminal somewhere else in the world and our main character, hathaway has a moral compass. The person he is hunting, his conscience resides in virtual reality. What does that mean . Did you have chris in mind . I always have the character in mind first. You knew what he looked like, what his moral compass was, what his ambition was . I knew he was from the southside of chicago and had a steel worker father because i spent some time with in the 70s. A Progressive Reform Movement in steelworkers. He had that direct, centered intelligence that i am used to. And the single father idea came from what happens to a son when he is brought up by a responsible and hardworking father, there are dynamic later in life if they have a great relationship which they did. With scholarship and smarts, he is in m. I. T. Did you create the story with the writer or did anyone help you . I created the back story for hathaway. Why chris . Ron howard showed me 45 minutes of rush, and i thought, this guy is so good. He has lost himself in the moment, he is that guy. And that is what i look for. And then i went down to costa rica where he was with his family, his mother and father and wife and brother. And we spent a couple of days. In the native, chris is a good guy, very centered. He helps to put a new roof on a garage. And i thought, he is this guy, natively. He was very excited about the process of immersing himself in the character and got to the point where you lose yourself in the moment and you do not know where you are, you lose orientation and are living the moment. That is the spontaneity i am looking for from an actor. And the beginning of the film, you see the velocity of how something is sent out, a packet. A packet. How fast it travels and the speed of light. How did you do that . I wanted to not see someone sitting and typing. I thought it was so dramatic when i came to understand what happens when the packet is simply processed by the chip in your cell phone. What a packet is, by the way a bit and a byte. I wanted to tell the story of the intrusion in the physical world, the location in which it occurs. Which means you are getting into structures that are numbers of atoms wide. There is a magnification factor when were looking at a single transistor. It is done with cgi but it is based on the architecture of those places that the packet of ones and zeros moves through. That is the real architecture, that is what it looks like. The challenge is also to tell a story. You have the technology that makes it consequential because if you take down an electrical grid, all of the things you can do, it gives you a huge weapon. As you know, leon panetta, at his hearing, said the next pearl harbor will be cyber warfare. That is where it is coming. That is right. That became the territory. And i wanted not just the characters to come out of it and the mentality of the adversary to come out of it, but also the way the detectives story to stop a cyber criminal somewhere in the world who nobody knows where he is. You do not even know where the point of origination is. You bounce across proxy servers, one of which will be mumbai. To get somebody to put a usb drive into their laptop, using destinations. Look at the scene, among the terrific actors are viola davis. How does it work . You give nsa the data and then run it . You are not thinking. They have the keys to the kingdom. Whatever he is cooking up is right in there but we cannot read it. My whole correspondence is here, but there is no way the login is active. I am not going to use that login. If the nsa discovers the intrusion, are you sure you want to do this . Fbi cannot explain after the fact . You get discovered, you are dead meat. You know that, dont you . You are watching the clip intently at my table. You are thinking, what . You have seen this a thousand times. At least. Are you watching it with fresh eyes in anyway . When the acting is right, you can get it again and again and again. The biggest problem with viola davis is the editors want to cut to her all the time. She is so great. What does this mean, good . She starts where she is so selfcritical. We would do a take. And she is happy and you are not. When it is really out of the park, we both know it. She is just, she is angry at herself but is really intense. The moment with she and chris, what is happening is that chris is, at this point chris and her become lovers. It happens pretty quickly. It happens pretty quickly. They knew each other through the kid. If he hacked the nsa to get the answer and is discovered, he is dead meat. And he does go ahead and do it. But they needed to restore some code. Who has influenced you the most . Kubrick. I love wong kar wei. My impression of you is that what you like the most perhaps is the construction of the whole thing. Just figuring out what is the story you want to tell more so than living in the editing room, in a sense. It is all of it. It is very astute because in todays language, people would talk about interweaving of texts. I talk about using everything, music and all of it. Designing the flow of the basic thing, it has to be a story. The people and the music and the color, how should the story tell itself in color and location, do i want to make you feel anxious and i have a low ceiling, how do i find places that have corners . Classic scene analysis. Take a look at this, this is where hathaway, chris, confronts the mercenary assassin. Hands up. Hands up. Turn around. No one has gotten this close before. Tell me about it. This is all back story, he is the product of the interminable civil wars in lebanon. I hypothesized that he had to leave when they moved in and took it over. His close quarter combat skills was a commodity that he was able to take on the International Market and that is where he got picked up by the guy he works for. He is a little odd, he is emotionally compelled. Hathaway would improvise weapons because he is not a martial artist, he is a guy that is an m. I. T. Student but going through the prison, he picked up. He would improvise weapons. He is stalking casar to get the drop on him. He has said it is about getting close enough fast enough. Even though he has gotten the drop, hathaway has gotten close. We have never been this close. It is an ironical line. No one has ever gotten this close before. By the end, hathaway, using cyber intrusions, has frozen all of their adversarys money. And they sent him a sentence saying that i do not know me but i know you and you are having a bad day. There is an interesting origin. There was a bookkeeper in panama that was moneylaundering. Some people i knew in the dea who are brilliant at manipulative finances discovered who this guy was, the accountant in panama, the money launderer in panama. And they froze Pablo Escobars accounts. The bookkeeper knew he was dead. And that he got a message from the dea saying that you do not know us but we know you and you are having a bad day. And they flipped. They flipped him and made him an informant and ran him for 18 months and that is how they got pablo escobar. Blackhat director michael mann. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. Welcome to bloomberg west. Im cory johnson. Huge news from at t. After the close, the Company Announced a 10 billion air pocket of fourthquarter earnings. Now pretax earnings will be a pretax loss, 7. 9 billion in the fourth quarter. The Supreme Court agreed to consider legalizing samesex marriage nationwide