When the lockdown ends in ten days time but therell be a relaxation over christmas. Pubs and restaurants in england could be allowed to stay open longer with an easing of the 10pm curfew. The nhs in england is to get an extra £3 billion, but the chancellor warns of tough times ahead for the economy, as the country deals with the consequences of the pandemic. The economy is experiencing significant stress. Weve seen that, particularly in the Labour Market and with peoples jobs. We know that 750,000 people have tragically already lost their jobs, with forecasts of more to come. Now on bbc news, the bbcs environment correspondent Justin Rowlatt chairs a remote debate asking why is it proving so difficult to stop Climate Change and the destruction of the Natural World . This is the bbc world service. Im Justin Rowlatt, and you are watching world questions the programme which puts the public right at the heart of the debate. And on this edition, we are discussing how we can protect the environment. With me is a panel of world leading scientists, academics, activists, and business people. The questions, as always, will come from members of the public from around the world. And there is so much for us all to discuss. What sort of Energy Policy should we be pursuing . Are there lessons to be learned from the coronavirus pandemic . And, of course, what can we do on a personal level to help protect the planet . Let me introduce our panel. Im joined by professor sir bob watson, a leading climatologist. Bob is the former chairman of the uns Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Hejoins us from the us capital, washington, dc. From the European Parliament in brussels, we are joined by ska keller. Ska is a german mep from the green party and co leader of the greens European Free alliance. From kenya, im joined by Elizabeth Wathuti. Elizabeth is an environmental campaigner and activist, and founder of the Green Generation initiative, which encourages young people to be environmentally conscious. Professor sir Partha Dasgupta a renowned economist at Cambridge University who is apparently leading a review for the British Treasury into the economics of biodiversity. Partha joins us from cambridge in the uk. And here in london, im joined by the entrepreneur and Green Energy Consultant michael liebreich. Welcome to you all. And now, to ourfirst question of the day. Its hans from the usa hans is a biochemical engineer, i think thats right, isnt it . What question do you have for our panel, hans . My question is, the ipcc says that we must reduce the use of coal to 2 or less of current levels by 2035. They say this cannot be accomplished without nuclear energy. New Technology Nuclear reactors recycle fuel and eliminate waste. Plus, they cannot melt down. The problem is solved by a mass production of standard designs. France and ontario, canada have shown how reduced nuclear can reduce fossil fuel use dramatically. Yet all the attention is put on impractical renewables, which have not lived up to expectation in countries like germany. So my question is, why does the science of Nuclear Power continue to be denied in favour of magical thinking about Renewable Energies . An interesting question, hans. Ill put that first to michael. I also want to add in the question about countries like germany which choose to shut down existing Nuclear Plants that are currently running and have, in some cases, many years left to run. What do you say to the decision to shut down those plants . So first of all, working nuclear that is producing large amounts of Clean Electricity at a very low marginal cost in a country like germany with very good regulation, a very strong whistle blowing culture, strong safety records frankly its a crime against the climate to shut those things down and keep coal running, as germany has done. And there is analysis on how many people have died from the air quality impact of that appalling and foolish decision. Then it comes to the question of building new Nuclear Power stations. But the problem with the current generation of nuclear is that its very expensive im talking about 3 4 times as expensive as now the lowest cost wind and solar. And hans question contains a lot of hidden landmines, like impractical renewables and magical thinking, and so on. This is nonsense, frankly. These are criticisms you could have held against renewables ten years ago. But now the lowest cost electricity in the world and the history of the planet comes from unsubsidized wind and solar, which now accounts for about 11 of global electricity. Finally, to your point about the next generation of nuclear, the small modular reactors that cant melt down and can maybe be produced at a very low cost through serious production. My view is bring it, lets see them, but not one of them will be built before 2030. So we should certainly put some money into those new nuclear technologies, but not rely on them, and certainly not rely on them for the next decade. Ok, ill go to ska next for obvious reasons. Its very unusual to accuse a senior green politician like yourself of a crime against the climate but that is what michael is saying german greens have done by encouraging the government to shut down functioning Nuclear Plants with many years left in their life. What do you say to that claim of a crime against the climate, and what do you say about the future of nuclear . Well, were very proud that we were a factor in shutting down the Nuclear Power plants that we have in germany. Because they are a huge risk. Nuclear energy is by no means safe, its also not climate neutral you have to dig up the uranium. And the big question is, what do you do with them afterwards . We decided to shut them down in germany. We have nowhere solved the issue about the waste. Theres huge outcries now of where will we put the waste . We will have to put the waste somewhere for millions of years. But of course, its true that the coal power plants shouldnt continue. That is absolutely right. Coal is extremely inefficient and we just shouldnt have it thats why we are pushing for them to close down. And the other problem is also that, if you have Nuclear Power, its a very centralised form of power, right . So if theres one problem with one nuclear plant, you have to turn off and its inconvenient for many people. Whereas with renewables, you can make sure it is decentralised, that you also put the power of creation into the hands of the people. You can have a wind power plant in a village, for example, and you can make sure that people benefit from the solar power being produced. So all of those are immense benefits of Renewable Energies. So from my point of view, this is exactly where we should go. Hans, what do you say to skas defence of her partys closing down those Nuclear Power stations, and her denial that Nuclear Power should be part of the climate solution . Well, i would say that Nuclear Power is the safest form of energy. It doesnt pollute the air, and we now know that things like Nuclear Waste are not nearly as harmful as theyve been portrayed to be, and that they are easy to store. I live 15 miles from a Nuclear Storage site, and its not a big deal. Its very safe, and im not the least bit concerned. 0k, hans, thank you very much indeed. A very robust defence of Nuclear Powerfrom hans in the usa, a biochemical engineer. Next, we go down the American Continent to brazil, to regina. She is an architect and gardener. Thanks so much forjoining us. Do you want to give us your question . Yes. I believe the whole world is one family. And we all have to make a sacrifice to save the planet. Do you believe humans are able to make that sacrifice . Or are they just selfish . Bob watson in washington, dc. Youve worked for the un for many years, what do you say to regina . Do you think human beings are willing to make the sacrifice, or are we just too selfish . I think some humans are willing to make the sacrifice in the good of all. But i believe most humans are not. Same as most governments, most private sectors, and most individuals are self centered. Theyre interested in themselves. However, i also believe we can produce the energy we need in a clean way. Im actually optimistic we could produce the food we need in a clean way. I believe a combination of Good Technologies and good policies can get us there. Professor, if people are selfish, how on earth do we make them join in with this International Effort to reduce Greenhouse Gases . It is true that, if we were somehow magically able to price nature, in the sense that we have to personally pay it if we encroach upon it, then it doesnt matter how selfish you are your self interest will guide you in the right direction. Thats for sure. But the problem is, who sets the price . We are essentially a small group of people, involved not with 7. 8 billion people in mind. We say on sundays that we are part of one global community, but on monday through saturday, we dont believe it. So organising, getting together, and recognising that the gains and losses will not be equal across people when we face up to the demands we make on the biosphere and its goods and services is a hugely difficult problem. Now we have solved in some sense, we have faced up to it, at the level of communities, possibly, in some parts of our activities, at the level of the nation. And at the international level, we have been successful, but on coordination problems, like having a system of weights, a common system of time these are extremely important problems to solve, but we seem to have managed it very well. But thats because nobody really lost. Arguably people gained. People gained. I want to go to elizabeth in kenya, an environmental campaigner. This is a key question are people too selfish to take the kind of actions necessary . You work with children and people in communities around kenya what do you say to that question . Are people too selfish . I would say that people have not imagined their connection with nature. Because when you connect to nature, you get to love nature and appreciate nature, and also be on the forefront to conserve nature. And right now, the world needs to invest in natures ability to address the impacts of the climate crisis. I grew up loving nature, and i would say that my passion for the environment and my push for activism is greatly connected to how i got to connect to nature at a young age. Because i got to understand nature, learn from nature and, in the process, feel the pain of nature due to environmental degradation. So if this is the same path that we can take for ourselves, our young people to make sure that people are loving nature in getting connected to the Natural World, then activism and conservation will be a call to action that you dont need anyone to tell you what needs to be done. You can see it and feel it, because you are connected to the Natural World. Ska keller, leader of the Green Alliance in the European Parliament, what do you say to this question . I very much agree with elizabeth, and i think what she also says is that maybe we shouldnt talk about sacrifice. Because in the end, we can gain a lot. We can gain an environment in which it is good to live i mean, no one wants to live amongst storms and all these nature catastrophes. It is not a sacrifice to have a green environment, a healthy environment. Those are all gains that we have from having a better environmental policy, from having societies that work Better Together with the environment. Ska, thank you very much. Michael, coming to you you are an entrepreneur, but i think there is a very interesting thing that ska was implying there, which is that we often talk about the costs of tackling Climate Change we rarely talk about the costs of not tackling limit change. Do you want to pick on that, this issue of people being too selfish to deal with the problem . I think reginas question is a fantastic one, because it goes to the heart of the problem. Now you can say, well, so many of the solutions are actually personally beneficial. So clean energy is just cheaper than not clean energy. Energy efficiency saves you on your utility bills. So its a fabulous thing. So i think a large part of the solution looks like that, and we dont need to frame it as a need to sacrifice. What we actually have is a need for investment, because those things require investment, but they deliver personal benefits. Regina in rio, what do you say to those answers . I think that the general conception about the Human Behaviour is individual character. But the pandemic has shown that humans have prepared to make sacrifices for love. Regina, thank you very much. Lets go now to haiti and tojuneau what is your question . We know about our population. Some countries such as haiti a lot of people are cutting trees to build houses. They are cutting trees to have food. I think if we could control the population of the country, something could be better. What can we do to control the population . Now you have hit, juneau, upon absolutely essential dilemma in all Environmental Issues. So what he was saying was, one of the key issues here is the population people in haiti needs to make it need to chop trees to build their homes, to have fires in order to cook. And the more people there are, the more trees theyll chop down, the more effect theyll have on the environment. So reducing the population is the best cure for the planetary ills that we are trying to tackle. Bob watson in washington, dc as the former chair of the ipcc trying to bring the nations of the world together, do you say in your panel discussions, listen, guys, weve got to keep the World Population under control . Yes, the two key issues we have to worry about is the number of people and what is consumed. The more people you have, the more demand for food, water, energy, fibre, etc. So the challenge is, how do we bring fertility rates down so we can be much more sustainable . 0ne education of girls, absolutely essential. Second, empowerment of women for women to have access to socially acceptable forms of contraception. If girls are educated, women are empowered, weve seen throughout the world that fertility rates go down. And that is indeed crucial. So i always argue, and the panels im on argue, we have to look at consumption and part of consumption is the population issue. But i want to make a point that consumption in the developed world, the industrial world is so much higher, the demand per capita for food, energy and water is much higher in europe and in america than it is in many poor, developing countries. So i dont want tojust blame developing countries with high population growth. We need to challenge, to reduce fertility rates and get to grips with unsustainable consumption in industrialised countries. Bob watson in washington, dc, thanks very much indeed. Lets go now to the European Parliament in brussels with ska keller, german mep. Ska, what do you say . Population clearly is a factor in controlling damage to the environment. What do the german greens suggest needs to be done . I do want to question that population is a major factor here. I very much agree with what bob said later on that consumption is the key. If we look at the population in belgium or in germany, theres so much consumption happening. In hong kong, you have a lot of people, but nobody is probably, excuse me, cutting down trees. Its a matter of poverty rather than of the number of people there. Of course, what we need to do is enable and empower every woman to decide about her own body and to control her own family size, and whatever. So that is absolutely important, it is important for democracy and human rights. But it is not important in a sense of, oh my god, we need to control how many people are living in far away countries. Because usually when that debate is happening, its happening about other countries. And i dont think that is a very good debate to have. So indeed, we need to look at the resources we have and how we distribute them equally and fairly, how do we make sure that no one has to live in poverty . How do we make sure that every woman can control the size of her family . I think those are the key questions. Thank you very much. Professor, we keep coming back to economics and all of this, dont we . So we hear there that perhaps consumption is more important than population. Where do you stand on this . Because one of the interesting things about population is the forecasts that were made even as recently as a decade ago for World Population growth, theyve proved to be much less aggressive than everybody expected, the population is growing much less rapidly than people thought, and we may peak much earlier and the population may decline more quickly than people may thought. Are you optimistic about population, or do you buy this claim that population is one of the key drivers of environmental damage . Well, of course it is a key driver, because it is one of the factors. So is per capita demand. The total demand is a product of the population size and the per capita demand. So we could have a trade off there. The question is, are we willing to make that trade off . You give me a World Population number, and ill be able to effectively compute the per capita demand that can be made on a sustainable basis. Because ecologists have data on that, as to how much the biosphere can take. So thats not an issue. Its a trade off. The question is, are we willing to make that trade off . And what should be absolutely clear because theres a lot of misunderstanding about this that the worlds poorest countries, which have some of the highest fertility rates, have no responsibility whatsoever for the environmental problems we face globally. Because they are pitifully poor. The worry that we have about the poorest countries, about their population growth or their fertility rates is about their future, not about what theyve done to earths system. Very interesting indeed, and theres a correlation between rising income and falling population. So arguably, enriching these poor countries may well lead to the consequence of a much slower population growth. Thank you very much indeed, juneau in port au prince, thank you very much for that interesting question. We now come to our very last question, and we have three school girls from spain. Theres a wonderful story behind this they were set the challenge of finding a question for this world questions by their teacher. And naturally enough, were going to the winners. Theyre from zaragoza. The question comes from daniela, she isjoined by herfellow pupils candela and laura. Do you want to give us your question . What should we all do to improve our habits and help save the planet . What should we all do to improve our habits and help save the planet . Where should we go first . Ill come to you, michael. What bad habits should we improve on in order to save the planet . Efficiency and waste. We need to bear down on that. We can all do that, because i think theres a little comfortable consensus here that consumption is the problem. Consumption is not the problem. Consumption that is wasteful is the problem. So i think theres a lot of things we can do, people complain mightily about the climate, then theyll live in a house that is poorly insulated. And instead of insulating it, theyll spend their money on some luxuries. So weve all got the responsibility to do the right thing through being efficient in our choices. Ska keller, german mep from the green party in brussels. What are your habits that you should improve on in order to save the planet . Normally i would say travel less, but the pandemic has solved that issue for me in a not so nice way, obviously. I do think everyone can do something about it, and theres all sorts of different factors playing in. But while it is really good to look at what youre doing individually, we must also recognise that there is a systemic problem. Individually, were not responsible for the global plastic industry, for example. Its something we can do ourselves to reduce, but that wont change the logic of the underpricing of environmentally very harmful goods. So again, lets do everything we can individually, but also be aware that we need to change something. In the end, its politics, and thats our responsibility to engage politically, as we have seen with the Global Climate movement thats been so effective and amazing. So we need to have that political pressure, as well, to change something in the system. Ska keller in brussels, thank you very much indeed. Im going to go to you next, bob watson in washington, dc. As a former chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the uns effort to bring together the countries of the world to deal with environmental problems, what are the bad habits that we should all get rid of in order to help solve Environmental Issues . The first and most important thing is to vote. Vote for politicians that actually care about the future, care about the environment. Choose sustainable products. Send a signal to the private sector we care about sustainability. So, we as individuals can play a major role of stimulating change in government and in the private sector. And by working with our friends and ourfamily, we can have collective action as well. Bob watson, thank you very much indeed. Professor sir pa rtha dasgupta in cambridge, youre an economist. What bad habits have you got that you should change in order to help tackle environmental problems . Well, an uncountable number, of course, but i quite agree with the previous two speakers. But there is one thing, since im an economist, something young people could do and i hope they would which is to agitate in their communities, via their communities, to the parliament, to their government, national government, to introduce nature in the economic models they use for forecasting, for policymaking. Professor sir pa rtha dasgupta, thank you very much indeed. And ive saved you, Elizabeth Wathuti in kenya, till last because youre environmental campaigner. Youre agitating and trying to get change all the time. Yeah, that great question reminds me that it is the small acts multiplied by millions of people that get to make a difference in the world. And as young people, one of the things that i always insist is use your voice. Because to change this planet and to have a liveable world and a safe future, we need to make our voices heard. And then, of course, be informed. Because when youre informed about everything that is happening to the world, how everything is changing for example, how the worlds forests are being destroyed or being burned down then this is something that gives us that anger to also want to do something about what is happening to the world today, because, of course, we do not want to let our future get down to the drain. We want a kind of a world where the future generations do not have to suffer the consequent as of the actions or positions of the current generation. Elizabeth wathuti in kenya, an environmental activist, thank you very much indeed. From zaragoza in spain, our final questioners, thank you very much. And that is all we have time for from this special edition of world questions. All that remains is to thank our wonderful panel, to thank our questioners and, of course, to thank you, the audience, for watching at home. Goodbye. Hello. A pleasant end to the weekend, weather wise, with most of us getting to see some sunshine at some stage of today. Still had a few showers around. Western scotland, Northern Ireland, north west england. Theyll continue into the night and become few and far between by the end of the night. A thicker cloud weve seen towards the south coast off england, some of it will push further north again across more of southern england into parts of wales. Capable of delivering the odd spot of rain. Where weve got clear spells it will be cold enough for a patch of frost going into monday morning. A day that starts with a decent amount of sunshine. Well keep sunny spells across eastern areas whereas in the west, the cloud increases. Well see some outbreaks of rain in Northern Ireland, especially western scotland. Looking very wet here for the afternoon. The wind picking up as well, some gusts in the Western Isles getting back to around 50,60 mph. We may see some showery rain pushing into parts of wales and west in england later today. Milder in the west, still quite chilly to the east. Quieter weather for the second half of the week ahead as High Pressure builds in again. A chance for overnight frost. Morning fog. Most places dry. This is bbc news. The headlines at four the cabinet meets this afternoon to agree a tougher three tiered system of local restrictions to come into force in england, when the lockdown ends early next month. Theyll also finalise a relaxation over christmas. Pubs and restaurants in england could be allowed to stay open longer, with an easing of the 10pm curfew. Scotla nd scotland wales and Northern Ireland are all being consulted on shared arrangements for the festive period. The nhs in england is to get an extra £3 billion, but the chancellor warns of tough times ahead for the economy, as the country deals with the consequences of the pandemic. The economy is experiencing significant stress. Weve seen that particularly in the Labour Market