Hello, its monday, its 10 oclock, im Victoria Derbyshire and were live from streatham in south london. Yesterday, this man, who was released from prison just days ago, attacked people with a knife just yards from where im standing. Counter Terror Police had him under surveillance and shot him dead at the scene. I hear three shots and i see him drop, and he was alive for a good two, three minutes on the floor. But he had a vest. This is where police tell everybody we have to move back in case of the blast going off. Sudesh amman was released despite being so high risk that he required monitoring. The government says its going to announce tougher measures today to deal with with prisoners
who pose a threat. What reassurance can i receive from the government that these people are properly being punished and reformed, those in prison not released until they are no longer a danger to the public but also those that are out, i want to be reassured the authorities have the resources and support they need to make sure we are being kept safe. This is the second terror incident in london in three months and there are in london in three months and there a re parallels in london in three months and there are parallels between the two. Across the next hour, well speak to people who saw what happened, speak to terror experts and politicians who can tell us what they think can and should be done to prevent attacks like this. Also today, the government is pledging £20 million to help speed up the plan to create a coronavirus vaccine. Well speak to the british woman who is sleeping forjust two hours a night as her team race to develop one. Hi. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. We are in stratum and we are going to talk to many people who live and work here about how they are feeling. We are in streatham. There was a terror incident on their high road yesterday. We are broadcasting from the corner of streatham high road and gracefield gardens and you can come and join us if you live locally. We are going to show you these pictures right now. Police are searching a bail hostel very near here this morning. They are also searching an address in Bishops Stortford. The bail hostel here is where it is reported sudesh amman had been staying since being released from prison in the last few days. Get in touch with us on twitter, using the hashtag
victory alive, send us an e mail. First, a summary of the new so far this morning with carrie. That is our top story today. New Counter Terrorism measures will be unveiled today, in response to the attack on shoppers in south london yesterday. Sudesh amman, who was released from prison about a week ago after serving half of his sentence for terror offences, was shot dead by police in streatham. Sudesh amman was under Police Surveillance when he stabbed two people. A third person suffered minor injuries caused by shattered glass. None of the injuries are life threatening. Stock markets in china have fallen sharply in the first trading session following an extended Lunar New Year break. The main index at the Shanghai Stock Exchange dropped nearly 9 before recovering slightly. The number of people with the virus whove died in china now stands at 361, with 17,000 confirmed cases. And in the last hour,
most of the border crossings into hong kong have been closed, after hospital workers in hong kong went on strike over fears the virus would spread further. Essex police say mistakes were made at the crime scene in the investigation into the rape and murder of a man at michael barrymores home. The body of 31 year old Stuart Lubbock was found in the tv presenters pool following a party in 2001. In a new documentary about the case, a Senior Police officer says there was a failure to preserve the scene of the crime and assumptions were made that the death was a tragic accident. Borisjohnson will give his first speech in around an hour since britains exit from the European Union when he will outline his hopes for a future trade deal. The Prime Minister is expected to announce that the government wants a canada style Free Trade Agreement with the rest of the eu, but wont accept following the eus
rules on things like competition and the environment. Prince william has made an appeal for more diversity in the bafta nominations, after all 20 acting nominees at last nights awards ceremony were white, and no female directors were put forward for the seventh consecutive year. The world war i film 1917, directed by sir sam mendes, was the big winner of the night picking up seven awards, including best film and best director. Renee zellweger and Joaquin Phoenix won the top acting prizes. You are up to date with the top stories. Now back to victoria in streatham. Thank you, yes, we are broadcasting live from streatham high road. Yesterday, as you know, 20 year old sudesh amman walked into a shop, metres from here. It is reported he stole a knife and then began to stab people, injuring two. This is the moment that armed police approached
him, just about 200 metres away from where we are standing and they shot him dead. The man was wearing the haute suicide vest and was being followed by armed counterTerror Police when he carried out the attack. He was released around a week ago from jail after serving half of a prison sentence of three yea rs half of a prison sentence of three years and four months for possessing and sharing documents containing terrorist information, including a manual called bloody brazilian knife fighting techniques. Police are searching addresses at Bishops Stortford in hertfordshire and south london this morning, and the government has announced this morning it will announce further fundamental changes to the system for dealing with those convicted of terror offences. Lets talk now to people who live here and some of those witnessed what happened. Claire saw what happened. Thank you for coming on the programme, a mum
of two. Lee, an electrician, who works and lives in the area. Thank you for coming on the programme. And also dave, who was at the scene, helping one of the victims. Dave has spoken to a number of Media Outlets over the last several hours. We are grateful for you coming over the last several hours. We are gratefulfor you coming onto the programme today. Claire, tell us first, what you saw and heard and where you were because we are now on the outer gordon. Yesterday, you are just up there. Thats right, i was in one of the local pubs, with my children. We saw a guy run out of the shops, he had looked like he had stolen something and the shopkeeper was running out and shouting he had stolen something and then it happened really quickly. Lots of people running, a lady on a bike looks like she was pushed at a time but we were a bit across the road. Another guy was wrapping a shirt around his arm and the guy who had stolen something ran thankfully in the other direction. Then we just
heard three banks, which at the time, we were not sure what it was. And he were you with . time, we were not sure what it was. And he were you with . I was with my husband and my two children, and they are aged two and five. When did you realise what was happening . People ran quite quickly towards the people who were injured, and then within a minute, less than a minute, there were police cars and ambulances coming up the high street. It all happened very quickly and then the road was shut off very quickly so it was highlighted something had happened. Because we had the children, we did not go into the situation. We walked in the other direction. How do you feel about what happened . Other direction. How do you feel about what happened . It is quite shocking that is in your local area, obviously, being on the doorstep, i dont think it has really sunk in ulster we has been here a long time and we love streatham. Everybody seems to have rallied around. You moved here eight years ago . Yes. Lee, hello, thank you for coming on
the programme. You are an electrician and you live and work here. What do you think about what is happening in your area . Here. What do you think about what is happening in your area7m here. What do you think about what is happening in your area . It is quite a shock, this street, the community, my coffee shop isjust over there, my community, my coffee shop isjust overthere, my dry community, my coffee shop isjust over there, my dry is there, i know the owner got i know claire, i have worked for her before. I understand that in the integration of society, people have half their jail sentence for terrorism offences or they have material, just releasing them into societyjust like that, you know, yeah, i dont know how to take that, you know. How do you take it . Personally, i think it is quite stupid, to be fair, if someone it is quite stupid, to be fair, if someone has that kind of material. If im injailfora someone has that kind of material. If im injail for a violent offence and im pleased and i say, when i get out, im going to do this and this, and they say, oh, thats a good idea, letsjust releasing. It does not seem too clever to me but thatis does not seem too clever to me but that is my opinion. Streatham has always been a loving and caring
community as far as im concerned, ive got a lot of friends here, ive done a lot of work for people here and it is a very loving community. To see this happen on our doorstep is very shocking. It is something you see on the news, not necessarily on your doorstep. Yes, it is a bit worrying. There are children, families, caring people, they are all here. Yes, it is a quite upsetting thing tavern. No doubt there is something going on for the individual, the perpetrator, no doubt, but. Idont individual, the perpetrator, no doubt, but. I dont know, something needs to be done a lot better to address this in the first place. Dave, let me bring you in, you have had a number of hours now to reflect on what you saw, how you helped one of the victims, how are you feeling this morning . Honestly, i feel exhausted. I couldnt you feeling this morning . Honestly, ifeel exhausted. I couldnt sleep last night. I feel very tearful. Ifeel exhausted. I couldnt sleep last night. Ifeel very tearful. I am still shaking. I dont want to be sensationalist about it, far more
people have seen far worse, but i will be honest, i am not dealing with it well. Im not surprised. What do you think about the fact this man was ray of way through his sentence, which happens in this country for lesser terrorism offences . Country for lesser terrorism offences . Completely respectfully, i refuse to use this as some kind of political football match. Refuse to use this as some kind of politicalfootball match. Im going to keep my views to myself. Ijust think it is tragic that innocent people got stabbed and were left in pain andi people got stabbed and were left in pain and i was with the victim for quite a while while he lay there, terrified, bleeding out on the street. That just terrified, bleeding out on the street. Thatjust doesnt feel right. Let me come back to you, lee and claire. We have seen terrorist
incidents in this country before, as you know, three months ago, we see what happened on fishmonger soul and then on london bridge, we have had westminster bridge, i dont need to go through. I dont need to go through them all but i wonder how you feel about the fact this is not a tourist attraction, it is not high profile, is it . A tourist attraction, it is not highprofile, is it . No. It is where normal people live and work and on a sunday afternoon they are doing their shopping, going sunday afternoon they are doing theirshopping, going fora sunday afternoon they are doing their shopping, going for a coffee and going to the cinema. Yes, that is why the time it did not maybe feel like it was what it was because why would you be here . It was busy on the high street but it is not a packed area. It is not high profile. Why . | packed area. It is not high profile. Why . I suppose it is very surreal that it has happened here. Like you say, it is not a tourist attraction. It is worrying, it is. Also it is important to point out that the
amount of people that did help that we re amount of people that did help that were incredible, people were running to help. People couldnt have done now. Everybody had their little jobs. Everything from turning the buses around because it was not a safe area, all the way through to liaising with the police. The amount of people that were readily giving numbers in orderto of people that were readily giving numbers in order to help was incredible. And the police were fantastic. They were calm and composed. They were completely in control. I think that really helped as well because i think, had they not been so well trained and equipped, it could have got out of hand. It could have been sensationalistic but relatively, he felt. Im not going to use the word safe but you felt like you were being looked after and they were incredible. I am going to bring in the local mp. Just come and join us, bell ribeiro addy, the labour mp for streatham, come in because weve got one microphone and people are struggling to hear so well because of the wind. Good morning. Thank you for joining of the wind. Good morning. Thank you
forjoining us. Claire, lee, dave livia, and were involved yesterday, trying to help, dave certainly tried to help one of the victims, how are you responding to what happened in your constituency yesterday . you responding to what happened in your constituency yesterday . I can imagine that everyone is scared and ican imagine imagine that everyone is scared and i can imagine that you were all quite frightened at the scene with what happened. 0bviously, quite frightened at the scene with what happened. Obviously, it is testa m e nt to what happened. Obviously, it is testament to the resilience of the people in streatham to be able to pile in and help as soon as possible. I think, pile in and help as soon as possible. Ithink, i understand people will be frightened but i would say that the police have assured us it is an isolated incident and people should not be afraid. Things will hopefully be back to working order on the high road. I was really pleased to hear that beattie individuals that were attacked, one had quite serious, critical wounds, but he has pulled through and should make a full recovery. So that is good. Fantastic, absolutely. How worried are you that you cant necessarily
keep your constituents safe from Something Like that . |j keep your constituents safe from Something Like that . I am really worried to find out that obviously, this individual had been released from prison just last week. This individual had been released from prisonjust last week. You know, that he immediately came under Police Surveillance. I find that very strange. If you need to be under surveillance immediately, it begs the question why you were released in the first place. Because. If you are on the more minor end of the scale when it comes to terrorism offences, then you can be released of atrial sentence, so he was released after one year and one month. Yes. It is automatic. I understand that is the case but if the police had cause and just reason, im sure they could have found a reason to make sure that he served the entirety of his sentence, otherwise why give that length of sentence in the first place . Would it have made any difference . What difference would it have made if he
had been in there for the full term, three years and four months . The incident yesterday perhaps would not have happened, definitely, that particular incident, and maybe by then we would have been able to look at things a bit better. Im a bit concerned about the amount of resources that are put into these situations, and camino situations in which people may have Mental Health problems or they may be radicalised in prison. 0ur prisons and police are overstretched. Having to have the police come out and deal with that situation when he should have beenin that situation when he should have been in prison is a massive strain on already overstretched force. Do you want to know how many more recently released people with terror convictions are being monitored like sudesh amman . I heard a figure this morning and i cant recall exactly, do you have it to hand . No, i dont know. I had heard this morning and hopefully the home secretary might confirm that in her statement today. But there are a number of other people under surveillance at the moment. Do you think all those
convicted of terror related offences who have been released halfway through the sentence should be recalled . I cant say that for every single case but clearly, this individual warranted enough kind of issues that he needed to be followed around by an armed police unit. That is quite serious. And he was still able to stab two people. Yes but if somebody requires an armed police unit, that would be a markerfor them not being released, i think. 0k. Them not being released, i think. Ok. I them not being released, i think. 0k. Iam them not being released, i think. Ok. I am told that it cant, they mayor of london, who has been talking specifically about this, i think. Actually, we have not quite yet. 0ur audience will have to bear with us because we are coming live this morning and as souness we have that clip we will bring it to you. How do you feel this money . You talked about having your children with you. Do you feel safe wandering about with your kids . with you. Do you feel safe wandering about with your kids . I do feel
safe, actually. Yesterday, we could not get into our house which is around the corner, everything was cordoned off, and we are allowed it now but everything is road blocked and secure and there is lots of police presence. As i said, the community have really come together, when i could not get into my house with my son yesterday, the number of local people that offered for me to come in and have a coffee and sit down in the warm, i was shocked, actually. I do feel safe this morning, definitely. Lee, dave and claire, thank you so much for talking to us and thank you for your time, as the labour mp for the area. I think we can bring you that clip of the mayor of london, sadiq khan. The question i am asking is, why is it there was a need for this man to be under the close supervision he was with an armed team, if the authorities knew he was a danger, why didnt the judge have the tools at his or her disposal to give this person a sentence at his or her disposal to give this person a sentence commensurate with what he was accused of doing . Why didnt the Probation Service, the
prison service properly punished and before him . But also, why was he allowed to be released if the authorities knew he was going to be authorities knew he was going to be a danger . Here is my other concern. We know there are more than 200 convicted terrorists in prison. We also know that there are roughly speaking 70 plus who has been released onto the streets. What reassurance can i receive released onto the streets. What reassurance can i receive from the government that these people are properly being punished and reformed, those in prison not released until they are no longer a danger to the public but also, those that are out, i want to be reassured the authorities have the resources and support they need to make sure we are being kept safe and if somebody is breaching their licence or as somebody is breaching their licence orasa somebody is breaching their licence or as a danger to the public, they should be back in prison so we can all be safe. Is a danger to the public. Is khan, the mayor of london. Paul says, public. Is khan, the mayor of london. Paulsays, longer nails does state or terrorism offences is right in visible but in practice, our understaffed, underfunded, chaotic prison system provides a
terrorist recruiting ground. Janet on facebook says, if this man needed watching, leave him in a cell where it is easier to see what is up to. Jasmine says, it is the absolute failure of the legal system. If we look back at almost all recent attacks in london, they happened because of people who had had previous collections of terrorism or had been injail. Why is the legal system allowing them to walk free and risk innocent peoples lives . It is an absolute failure of the security systems. This message on facebook says, there were no mechanisms for keeping him injail for the length of his sentence . Can someone expand why he was given three three years and four months in the first place if there was no legal let mechanism to keep them in place for that length of time . Thank you for those. We are just outside the outer gordon where sudesh amman attacked two people yesterday. The outer cordoned. Thankfully, we are told those people will be ok. Sudesh amman was being
monitored by armed officers which is why they were on the scene so quickly and shot him dead outside a pharmacy, which is about 200 metres up pharmacy, which is about 200 metres up the road from us here. Forensic officers are searching the scene, in their pale blue forensic suits. People who live in the inner cordoned, if they are not able to get to their flat or home, there we re get to their flat or home, there were people coming back from the night shiftjust were people coming back from the night shift just before were people coming back from the night shiftjust before we came on air, a lady who is a cleaner and one who works in hotel, not able to get to their flat because it is in the inner cordoned. They saw the news last night, had just returned from a night shift and were what they would do now they cant get in their homes. The police have said they dont know how long the cord and will be there. We are going to talk to the former prisons minister roy stuart who has turned up. Why you hear . Im an independent candidate for mayor london and this is an issue that matters to the people of london. As the former prisons officer, what is your view about the
fa ct officer, what is your view about the fact this man was released halfway through his sentence for 13 counts of possessing and sharing terrorist material . I think it is important firstly to understand that the judges are independent so they gave him a sentence, but the key thing is understanding when he came out mecca when he came out of 18 months or three years, which was his full sentence, when he comes out, you have to have the systems in place in prison and after prison to prevent reoffending. The thing we need a specialist counterterrorist expertise in prisons and in probation to make sure we turn these people around. We dont have that yet. That is what we need. So when he got out of prison, we are told that he was under very strict conditions, including a curfew. He was being monitored by armed officers, which is why they were on the scene so swiftly. What else could we be doing to have stop that happening . Under the new law, if he had been sentenced now, there would have been more controls over his release, that is the first thing. What kind of controls would have
stopped him doing that . 0k, we would have to look at the exact events but under the new laws passed at the end of last year, it is probable you would have had to go through something more like a parole process before he had automatic release. The second thing is, we need to look at the licence conditions, in other words, how long was because he meant to be . What kind of accommodation was he in . Did he breech it yesterday and should he have been recalled . That yesterday and should he have been recalled . That is yesterday and should he have been recalled . That is not for me. But if he was under curfew 23 hours out of 24, it he was under curfew 23 hours out of 2a, it takes a minute to stab people, as we saw. For somebody who poses an imminent danger or threat to the public, they need to be put back into prison, there is no doubt about that at all. That is immediately the role for the multi Agency Protection forces, police and privation, to do that. But again, it is very important that investigation has to be undertaken so we step away from individual to the broader issue, we need to work out how we get the linkup with police, prison and probation, make sure you have a single case officer tracking somebody through the system, and also make sure that we
have the proper help for police and communities because many of the recent attacks have been a lone wolf attacks, not necessarily connected to alqaeda and isis and you only pick them up, not in this case where there was armed surveillance but you only tick them up through neighbours, Mental Health, doctors and all those systems need to work together. And the final thing is, we need to plan for the next attack. We have got very used to attacks taking place with knives. The next attack could use a completely different type of technology. We all need to get on top of this stuff because it is changing very quickly. Is it right that the government is going to announce, it says today, fundamental changes to the system of dealing with convicted terrorists . We need to see what those announcements are, but the same problem remains. Even if you were to double the amount of time that visit middle spent in prison, it still would only have been three years and he still would have come out potentially dangerous. You have got to get the work right in prison. De radicalisation . Yes, that means
general principles, we have wonderful prison officers, dedicated people, but specialist, people who understand how to work with terrorists and that is both what you do to deradicalise them and how you protect the public when they come at the other end. You wont get it right every time but we can make things safer by having specialist teams in place to work on this. 0k. Thank you forjoining us. Rory stewart, former prisons minister, as you know and there are a number of other candidates who are standing to be mayor. Ten in total. Hopefully you can see them on your screen. Nick on e mail says the stabbing took place almost directly opposite Streatham Police station which was closed while borisjohnson was the mayor london. Dave tweets, focus on streatham high street losing business this morning i shops all closed, hope there will be some government help for the folks, many of them are small local businesses, not major retailers. Steve says the government needs to act and recall anyone released in the last three
months for terrorist sentences. Surveillance in prison would be a lot easier. Kennett says release from prison did not do his victim any good or indeed himself. Kenneth. He says he hopes the victims make a swift recovery. It is worth saying, streatham high road, for those who know it, know how busy it would be on a monday morning like this and at the moment, it is. Pretty quiet, apart from the Police Activity behind the tape. There are activity behind the tape. There are a number of people Milling Around and you can probably hear the Police Helicopter which is just overhead. Right, were going to speak to our reporter who has spent the morning talking to people who live near the bail hostel where sudesh amman was believed to be staying full stop tell us what you found. On a normal morning, the road where the hostel is based is just morning, the road where the hostel is based isjust a normal suburban road in south london, lots of houses
and trees and on a normal morning, you would see people walking to work or getting a car or bus. Lots of pa rents or getting a car or bus. Lots of parents walking to school with their kids because there are lots of schools in the area. This morning, traffic was at a standstill and there were Police Cordons and police va ns there were Police Cordons and police vans all around the hostel. Lots of people were taking a moment to look ata Building People were taking a moment to look at a building that until today, they had never even noticed. It wasjust another building until today but today, they have realised that is the place it is believed the attacker was staying. I spoke to two young women who were aware of the hostel. They had grown up in the area and had said as children, their pa rents area and had said as children, their pa re nts ha d area and had said as children, their parents had warned them about the hostel, they said, be careful about speaking to people hanging out there, they are dodgy. They said nothing bad had ever happened and theyd always felt perfectly safe by yesterday afternoon, as soon as the attack happened, there was a lot of commotion outside their flat and they looked out of the window and they looked out of the window and they could see the hostel, police ca rs they could see the hostel, police cars outside and they saw five or six people being escorted out and
there was a helicopter overhead. I asked them if they were scared and what they said was that they were, that they used the bus stop outside the hostel, they could have been waiting for the bus at the same time as him. They said while all areas have problems, they all wells fail always felt safe in the area and they were shocked. Ok, how would you describe the atmosphere and the mood here this morning . I would say a lot of tension and questions being asked. To get to the hostel, i was ona asked. To get to the hostel, i was on a bus and people who did not know each other were openly talking about what happened, where they had been when they heard the news, some of them had been on this road and had friends who would maybe go to the shops and then made a last minute decision not to be there at the time it happened. People were talking about it. I spoke to one dad who had about it. I spoke to one dad who had a ten year old son and he said this morning over breakfast, his son was asking him about the attack. He said he was scared and asked his dad what the attacker looked like and if he was going to hurt either of them. He
had to reassure him so lots of pa rents had to reassure him so lots of parents having Difficult Conversations with their children this morning. 0ne conversations with their children this morning. One woman i spoke to said her 12 year old son walk sparks the hostel to go to school in his own everyday and she was scared for his safety. Thank you forjoining us. I spoke to a couple of 13 year olds on their way to school as well just 13 year olds on their way to school as welljust before. It was about 8 30am, they were on their way to school, and they said they were scared and their mum and dad had said, go straight to school and come straight home, dont go to the shops in between, come straight home. We will talk to more people who live and work here, who saw what happened here yesterday in the next half hour of the programme. For the moment, though, at 10 30am, half hour of the programme. For the moment, though, at10 30am, we are going to talk about the coronavirus. The government has pledged £20 million to an International Group reasearching a vaccine to stop the spread of coronavirus. Its hoped that an early version could be developed within 16 weeks but any vaccine is still months away
from being widely available. So far, there have been more than 17,000 confirmed cases of the virus and 361 deaths. We can talk to vaccine expert dr Kate Broderick, shes in san diego and says shes sleeping just two hours a night as she works in the us with a team desperately searching for a cure for the deadly virus. Thank you very much for talking to us. Its a pleasure to be here. Tell us. Its a pleasure to be here. Tell us about your work. The company i work for specialises in both Infectious Diseases and cancers. So, when. We were monitoring the situation very carefully. When we eventually. We immediately started working on designing a dna
medicine. We havejust now put that into manufacturing and we hope to have that tested in humans. Doctor broderick, unfortunately the technicals means we can hear some of your words but not all of them, we will try to redial and we will talk again in the next few minutes if we may. We absolutely want to hear what you are saying. We will pause on coronavirus for just a moment. We will talk to the independent reviewer on terrorism. Jonathan hall qc was appointed by the home secretary as independent reviewer of terrorism legislation in may last year. Hes in our Central London newsroom. Thank you very much for talking to us, mr hall. I want your reaction first of all to what happened on streatham high road yesterday afternoon. There are three things you have got to look at, the length of the sentence someone will spend, you need to look at what happens to them in prison and how they are
managed after release. At the moment, since last week, i am doing an independent review into the statutory arrangements for managing released prisoners and i will find out all about this particular case but those are three areas we need to look at and no doubt the government will be announcing changes to the law but as well as any potential changes to the law, there are lots of mechanisms that need to be exploited. I can talk to you about some of those if you want. Lets talk about the length of sentence first of all because with this man, sudesh amman, we know he pleaded guilty to six counts of possessing terrorist material and he was given three years four months in december 2018. He was released after a year and a month. Automatic release halfway through sentence, despite being high risk, which is why he was being high risk, which is why he was being monitored by undercover armed officers. This is what the public
cant get their heads around, he couldnt have been kept in jail despite the fact that he was high risk . Despite the fact that he was highrisk . Youve got to look at the paradox of counterterrorism operations, victoria. He wasnt convicted of carrying out any act of violence. He was convicted of something that is known as a precursor offence and the paradox is that the police will try to intervene early to prevent acts of violence and the only offence is they might find are, in this case, evidence he was in possession of certain material and disseminating certain material and disseminating certain material. He was not convicted of a traditional risky violent offence. That is the paradox. The sooner you get in to protect people, the less sentencing powers are available to the judgment thatis powers are available to the judgment that is why he had a short sentence and the nature of his sentence, although the law changed a bit, he had to automatically be released at the halfway point. Even if one had extended his sentence a bit, he would have had to be released
eventually, which is why the second pa rt eventually, which is why the second part of what needs to be looked at in these cases is what people are doing in prison stop let me ask you about that in a moment, thejustice secretary, robert butland is expected to make a statement. Whitehall sources suggesting emergency legislation is being considered. I wonder what you think that might involve. There is one sort of emergency legislation which could be to revert the situation that took place after the 9 11 attacks to bring in civil measures to detain individuals, involving an Emergency Declaration there is a high degree of risk in society at the moment. It could be that. I have heard it said that attempts might be made to retrospectively change sentences but that seems unlikely. That is my best guess. Are there
others convicted of terrorism related offences who have been released automatically as you just described halfway through those sentences and potentially this emergency legislation means they are detained and taken back into custody . That is a possibility, that happened after the 9 11 attacks, they hadnt been convicted of any offences but they were considered a risk. That is talking let us talk about what is happening in prison. A man was injail about what is happening in prison. A man was in jailjust over a year before being released, released just that despite being high risk. Does it suggest that there was an attempt to deradicalise him while he was in jail . You cant be misty eyed about de radicalisation. It may work for some people but it is not a cure oil and there are considerable uncertainties about its effectiveness. We need to look at
how people behave in prison and if necessary , how people behave in prison and if necessary, evidence of offences they commit in prison, if evidence there is evidence that they are celebrating something of that nature if celebrating something of that nature if there is evidence. The reason being is that when you have people who are inside for short periods, there is no way you can delay their release unless they commit a further offence. We need to look at how to deal with the individuals and identifying if they are committing further offences in prison and if they are, using that in the criminal justice situation. The real issue, the overriding issue is to identify people who are at risk of stabbing and killing people. It is not simply just looking at extremism and the government has looked at lots of work identifying extremism and the net is quite wide but what we are looking at here is identifying that small number of people who are actually at risk of going out and killing or stabbing. And for those individuals, there is almost a case
for having someone who man marks them. Iam for having someone who man marks them. I am not talking for having someone who man marks them. Iam not talking in for having someone who man marks them. I am not talking in the sense of covert surveillance but an individual who follows them throughout their prison release career who knows all of the legal tools available to manage them. I can explaina tools available to manage them. I can explain a bit more about that if you like . Yes, please do, go ahead. When someone is released, there are usually arrangements in place for the most risky individuals and that will be a partnership between the police and prisons and probation but the real difficulty and this case is a good example of that is that there may be a Covert Police operation going on involving sensitive intelligence but that isnt necessarily available to those making decisions about the management of the individual. Im talking about increasing licence conditions for example although that may not have had much of an effect or recalling them or working out other steps that could be taken. For example, are there opportunities to arrest them for new offences, such
as arresting them for offences created in prison. My general sense, there needs to be a greater marrying up there needs to be a greater marrying up on the one hand a strategic sense of what the intelligence suggests about the individual and on the other had proper use of the powers available. Your reaction to the fact that this man was being monitored by undercover armed officers and yet he still managed to stab two people in broad daylight on a busy high street in south london . My first reaction is that it shows a licensed condition telling someone to stay away from busy centres isnt the answer. It is difficult when you have individuals who are determined to carry out these sorts of attacks. We need to look at a more proactive approach looking at what opportunities there are hard to recall them if possible and increase the amount of time they spend with
probation officers, carrying out searches of premises to look for suicide vests and the like. It shows you that even with armed surveillance, it is not always possible to stop someone determined to do that. We are grateful for your time, thank you for coming on the programme, thank you. Jonathan hall qc, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. We will talk to doctor Kate Broderick who, with her team, is working pretty much 247 to 24 7 to come up with a vaccine for the coronavirus. Doctor broderick, you are in san diego, we are grateful for your time, sorry you are in san diego, we are gratefulfor your time, sorry for the technical issues, remind us where your team are. Certainly. We received the genetic sequence of the virus on the 9th of january and we immediately designed a vaccine against it and put it into manufacturing and we were running some tests. We are hoping it will be tested in human Clinical Trials by
the early summer. Ok, by the early summer. Is there any way it could be quicker . To be completely honest, thatis quicker . To be completely honest, that is us going as absolutely rapidly as we possibly can. We are trying to do everything to get this vaccine out as trying to do everything to get this vaccine out as soon as trying to do everything to get this vaccine out as soon as possible but there are procedures and processes in place and of course, we follow those processes. This is to get it into testing by the early summer, that would be unprecedented. Can you talk to our audience through the process by which you come up with a vaccine. Certainly, the pharmaceuticals, the processes is based on dna medicine. Rather than a traditional vaccine, which uses a
protein or the virus itself, we take just a small part of the genetic sequence of the virus and we use that and amplify that up and introduce that into the human body, which allows the body to generate a kind of map of the virus so your own immune system can find it and fight it in the human body. That is how we are able to be much more rapid than standard, using genetic sequences rather than conventional approaches. Weve got a graph i think we can show our audience, which shows the speed with which the coronavirus is spreading compared to the sars virus. Quite a dramatic difference between the two. Why is this spreading much more rapidly . That is what is a little scary about the situation, we just what is a little scary about the situation, wejust dont what is a little scary about the situation, we just dont know the a nswer to situation, we just dont know the
answer to that. Certainly, when it comes to viral outbreaks, population density, access to travel, elements like that they are key to the spread ofa like that they are key to the spread of a virus. The chinese authorities did a really greatjob in trying to control the situation. Clearly, the virus is still spreading at alarming numbers and that really is concerning to us as scientists. How are you managing onjust concerning to us as scientists. How are you managing on just two concerning to us as scientists. How are you managing onjust two hours sleep a night . There have been some long days and late nights for the whole team and i am sure i can speak for all of the scientists and clinicians working on this effort that we understand the seriousness and the responsibility, but we are doing everything we can together as a Scientific Community to find the solution for this outbreak. We are grateful for your time when you are
so busy, thank you for talking to us. Doctor Kate Broderick, talking to us live from san diego. We are here on streatham high road. Behind us, you can see it is pretty empty but in the inner court and behind us, there are forensic officers in those pale blue suits that you are probably used to seeing who are searching the area where, yesterday, a man who had just been released from jail days ago stabbed two people, thankfully not life threatening injuries. A third person was injured by glass after armed police shot the man dead, the attacker, dead. Sudesh amman was 20 yea rs attacker, dead. Sudesh amman was 20 years old, former College Student from harrow jailed in years old, former College Student from harrowjailed in december 2018, 413 terror related offences, possessing and sharing terrorist material two for 13 terror offences. He urged his girlfriend to behead her parents and sent beheading videos to his girlfriend. He had a manual which was described as bloody brazilian knife fighting techniques. He was released halfway through his jail sentence and pleaded guilty to those 13 offences and released halfway through his sentence, which was in the last few days. 0riginally jailed for three years and four months. We are thejustice secretary will make a statement to the commons today and one white or source must adjust to that spokesperson suggested that there may be emergency legislation. Former met police chief, former gold firearms commander is also with us. Lets talk now to former met police chief superindendent dal babu and dr afzal ashraf a professor of politics and International Relations at nottingham university. And lord ricketts is with us, the uks First National security adviser
from 2010 to 2012. Lord ricketts, if i may start with you, how can this happen . That is a very good question. This is somebody already in jail question. This is somebody already injail let outand question. This is somebody already in jail let out and within days was obviously considered such a risk that he was given this very, very rare and scarce met police resource, undercover firearms officers. 0bviously, they are constantly establishing priorities for who are the most threatening people that need to be covered in that way and this man, having just been let out ofjail, is this man, having just been let out of jail, is right this man, having just been let out ofjail, is right at the top of that list. There is something that has gone wrong that somebody should be let out from jail when they are such a potent risk to people in the street. Although if he hadnt been closely monitored in the way he was, it could have been a lot worse. Yes, this wasnt a typical lone wolf attack were somebody out of the blue decides to go out and commit a terrorist attack. He was known to the system and had been in the system until a few days before, let out and immediately had to be
treated as a high priority risk. There is clearly a need for review. Im notan there is clearly a need for review. Im not an expert in the legislation, i am wary usually of doing legislation on the hoof after one of these events but since it was a rather similar case, eerily similar, with his men cant, we need to urge ntly similar, with his men cant, we need to urgently look at this law to make sure there is discretion to make sure there is discretion to make sure if somebody that serves half a sentence but there is a risk they can keep them injail. Sentence but there is a risk they can keep them in jail. The government announced after the fishmongers hall attack after two people were killed, they announced they will increase sentences for the worst terrorist offenders. They will make the Early Release scheme redundant, so that people arent released halfway through but would be released two thirds of the way through and increase the numbers they say of specialist probation officers and that sort of thing. If this was in place, that wouldnt
have stopped this man yesterday, would it . That is correct because he was not injailfor the would it . That is correct because he was not in jail for the worst terrorist offences, for bad things but not attending to kill somebody. Every s pa ce but not attending to kill somebody. Every space is every case is a special case and this didnt fit into the previous category, there needs to be a review as well as rapid work on legislation. Most of all we need to be sure everyone in the community is alert to risk like this. People who suddenly change their behaviour, where patterns change and they start acting strangely and it is only if they tip of the authorities that we have any hope of catching people like this. The authorities were tailing him. Luckily they were. That is why they could stop him so swiftly. That shouldnt be the case, that somebody let out from jail and yet you need armed police tailing them, that seems wrong. Dal, what has to change asa seems wrong. Dal, what has to change as a result of what happened here yesterday. We know a lot more today than we did yesterday. Yesterday we
got the impression this was Police Officer turning up and dealt with this but it turns out they were tailing him, they were surveilling him. We need to learn lessons from the attack three months ago where two people were murdered by usman kha. We were told there would be significant changes but that it doesnt appear that usman khan. We need some kind of public enquiry, a review, certainly independent, that looks at the lessons we can learn from here. Ultimately, we have individuals notjust learn from here. Ultimately, we have individuals not just terrorism, learn from here. Ultimately, we have individuals notjust terrorism, but in violent individuals notjust terrorism, but in viole nt offenders individuals notjust terrorism, but in violent offenders that are being released straight through, regardless of whether we have concerns once they will reach 50 of their sentence. We cannot release people we have concerns about. The police, as lord ricketts said, the police, as lord ricketts said, the police would not have put resources around this individual if they werent concerned. We have this bizarre. Common sense has
disappeared. We have a situation where individuals who we have concerns about is released and we spend tens of thousands of pounds on the surveillance of this individual and even then, he has still managed to injure two people. The Police Office rs to injure two people. The Police Officers who were on the ground were incredibly brave but we need to ask what was the strategy police had, the counterterrorism strategy. If we learnt lessons about this individual and probation. How many people are likely to be monitored in the way sudesh amman was . likely to be monitored in the way sudesh amman was . I dont know those figures. From what we hear, there was a significant number. We are having resources ta ken was a significant number. We are having resources taken away from policing in london and today is a classic example. Look at how long we have had these cordons here. That has a massive impact on the community and businesses here. We need some kind of Public Inquiry that gives us an indication of what the government are going to do. Does
it suggest to you. It is reported in some newspapers that sudesh amman ran intoa in some newspapers that sudesh amman ran into a shop, grabbed a knife, stole a knife, and then randomly attacked people. Does it suggest are usually realised he being tailed . Its very unclear. Some reports say he got knives and other reports say he got knives and other reports say he was armed and had a fake suicide vest on. We need to understand what was happening and what the details of the surveillance was. Was it to gather intelligence . Did they have specific information he was going to attack somebody . It is a huge amount of resources and that is all unclear at the moment. To be clear, you want at the moment. To be clear, you want a Public Inquiry . We need a Public Inquiry because we have had two remarkably similar incidences and we havent let lessons from the first one. And if i was the Police Officer who had to fire a gun to kill somebody or a member of the public that had been hurt, i would want to know what was done to make sure
those incidents didnt happen. If we manage them properly, they potentially wouldnt have happened. Assista nt potentially wouldnt have happened. Assistant professor of politics and International Relations at nottingham university, we dont know what the Rehabilitation Programme inside jail was what the Rehabilitation Programme insidejail was for this what the Rehabilitation Programme inside jail was for this man, what the Rehabilitation Programme insidejail was for this man, if indeed he was on any kind a Rehabilitation Programme. Could he have come out ofjail worse than he had gone in . It is possible, but i think before we get to that, the most important thing we need to do is send out a message, which i think to some extent you are doing now. It needs to be reinforced. These people needs to be reinforced. These people need to know that whatever cause they are fighting for, or they think they are fighting for, or they think they are fighting for, or they think they are fighting for is not working. They do this for publicity. In some ways, we are unintentionally helping them with this. We need to get the message out to them that whatever they are doing is not working for them. It is working. We know that with this man, he had
written his life goals and number one was dying as a martyr. He got what he wanted, he was shot dead by police yesterday. But that martyrdom thing was for a particular goal. Whatever it was, its not going to happen. That much thing was not a goal in itself, it was to establish what he thought was a better world. That is the message we want to get out to them you will die but you wont get what you want. Going back to the question you asked, we need to the question you asked, we need to get our prisons and our Probation Service better equipped to deal with these people because what we had is a psychologist providing information which isnt fit for purpose. We are doing a greatjob but it needs to be updated with the other expertise we have in interrogations and the persuasion that exists in the police and intelligence services. We need to update that capability. We need to update that capability. We need to consider through an inquiry, it
has to be a Public Inquiry which takes a lot of time it doesnt have to be. It needs to be an independent inquiry which quickly determines the cause. We need to look and consider the options of some form of positive vetting before people like this are allowed out on the streets. If they made an indication they want to harm the public, i dont think we can any longer allow them out until we have a positive assurance they are no longer going to be a threat to the public. Lord ricketts, the justice secretary will make a statement today, what do you want to hear from him . It is wonderful to see this community so resilient after this frightening event. They havent been intimidated and that is the strongest message we can send to people who do this kind of thing. The justice secretary people who do this kind of thing. Thejustice secretary needs to tell us what happened, why this man was released when he was palpably still a threat. Public inquiry can be fine
but it takes a long time. We need to make sure that it doesnt happen in a few weeks time somewhere else in the uk and by all means, lets look at the Probation Service and the arrangements for deciding on peoples release but we need to take urgent action to make sure there is enough discretion in the system so that somebody who is potentially still dangerous doesnt get released automatically. Briefly . We were told they would be a fundamental Risk Assessment after usman khan and i would be interested to know if this was partly a Risk Assessment and if it was, it is very worrying. We need a transparent and open system where we risk assess those individuals that will potentially cause us damage and make sure if they are dangerous, they are taken back to prison if they are not fit to be released then they are not released. Thank you very much. Thanks for your messages. This person texting is that i have recently been released from after five weeks for a driving ban. I was in prison 16 years ago and the difference in the prison
service is shocking, there is a shortage of experienced staff and why would anybody want to join the service on the pay they are offering you. Someone else is what is the point of giving somebody a sentence which is meaningless when they are reduced by 50 . Another person says being followed by armed police suggests he was a definite threat to public safety, why was he allowed to be released in the first place . We will talk to jonathan bartley. He isjoint leader of the he is joint leader of the greens and lives in streatham. I have lived here for 20 years, i was on a ward panel for a number of years before i ama panel for a number of years before i am a counsellor and i lead the opposition on lambeth council. It is absolutely devastating. Heartbreaking to have this happen here. We pride ourselves on being an inclusive and diverse multicultural area in streatham. The mosque is there, the synagogue is here and there, the synagogue is here and there are two churches here and there are two churches here and there are two churches here and there are people of no faith. We work well together and have a sense
of identity and diversity which works but there are so many questions this morning coming up about why this happened and how this happened. We need answers and we need to know. I had in the last hour that the perpetrator was in a hostel. Just up here. Did the council know . Did the police know . I havent even had a briefing from the council get and i am the leader of the opposition. I had a briefing from the police and we need questions answered. Sure. Does it shock if he was in a bail hostel in the middle of a busy and Residential Community when he was such a high risk . What has emerged overnight about what we now know about him and his history, why were stringent measures not taken. 0bviously what sadiq khan has said this morning about indeterminate sentences that was taken away from judges had been
imposed. In streatham. I think we dont want to see a knee jerk reaction and we are aware they can bea reaction and we are aware they can be a clamp down on Civil Liberties which later we can come to regret. We wa nt which later we can come to regret. We want our questions answered and safety a nd we want our questions answered and safety and security to know this can never happen again in streatham or anywhere else in london. How do you feel people should respond who live and work here . People have said to me today they are shocked, they think it is surreal, this is not a tourist, high profile tourist spot. This is just tourist, high profile tourist spot. This isjust a normal area. That is one of the big question is, why here . It is not an iconic place. It has huge respect for diversity. I have walked along here countless times every weekend on a sunday afternoon with my children and i have always felt safe. There was an initial sense of shock but today you are feeling, around here, we can come together and we will not let fear try. Actually, if fear is allowed to triumph and if we get frightened, in a sense, those who perpetuate terror have won and we wont allow that to happen in
streatham. Thank you very much. Many more questions to be answered and we will get some answers through the coming days. Thank you. Jonathan ba rtley, he coming days. Thank you. Jonathan bartley, he has lived in streatham for 20 years and co leader of the green party and a local councillor. Stay with us on bbc news and ace statement from the justice secretary later today. We will be able to hear that on bbc news and eight statement. Have a good day. Good morning, some windy weather today, particularly across scotland and Northern Ireland and Northern Areas of england. That is where we have showers moving in. A bit wintry over Higher Ground with some snow at times. Further south,
over Higher Ground with some snow at times. Furthersouth, more cloud over Higher Ground with some snow at times. Further south, more cloud and rain affecting the far south of england. The better sunshine with the odd shower across north wales, Northern England at maximum temperature is about 7 12 celsius. It will be breezy for many of us, particularly across scotland where we will continue to have some showers which will be wintry over Higher Ground through to night but the wind speed ramping up later tonight. Gusts of 75 miles an hour in the west of scotland. That could be disruptive as we go through tonight and tomorrow morning. Further showers moving through and tuesday, quite blustery and those of the wind gusts coming from the north west. Some showers in the morning, they clear to the south and some sunshine or sunny spells into the afternoon. Goodbye for now. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Its 11 am and these are the main stories this morning. Plans for fundamental changes to the system for dealing with convicted terrorists are to be announced by the government following yesterdays attack in south london. Sudesh amman stabbed two people before he was shot dead by police. The 20 year old had been released from prison recently after serving half his sentence for terrorism offences. We have got to make sure that prisons are not universities of crime. If people have been convicted of a terror offence, that they become more radicalised. That means revisiting policies like cuts to present