Hello, its wednesday, its ten oclock, im victoria derbyshire, and were live from new broadcasting house. The family of a man who wheeled himself out of hospital and took his own life after being locked out of a Mental Health ward have received damages from the two nhs trusts responsible for his care. You know by the look on his face, it is a look that you will never forget. And the last time i saw him, i got that look and i turned round to him at the hospital bed and i said, stay calm, i wont be long, youre coming home. That was the last time i saw
him. We will bring you the full interview with the family of tony collins in the next few minutes. Also, the uk will begin monitoring to flights arriving from china after the spread of a new virus which has killed nine people and infected more than 400 others. So concerned are some scientists they have said people should not even travel to the to city of wuhan and nobody should leave it, that city is 11 Million People and this is at a time of the spring festival, the most important couple of weeks really on the chinese calendar. Pay out round the back payout round the back we will talk to writer and director Armando Iannucci on his colour blind casting for his new film, the personal life of David Copperfield. for his new film, the personal life of David Copperfield. I could see him as david and after that, you
think, does he have an indian father . No, ijust want to choose people who just inhabit the spirit of the character, like dev. Hi, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Use the hashtag victorialive. Email victoria bbc. Co. Uk, text 61124 itll cost the Standard Network rate. First Annita Mcveigh has the news. Thank you and good morning. Health officials in china have warned the coronavirus could mutate and spread further. So far, nine people have died and more than 400 have been infected. The Authorities Say they are the most critical stage of controlling the virus. The government here is announcing a number of measures to monitor flights arriving in britain directly from china. The measures will apply to flights from wuhan province to heathrow airport. The family of a man who killed himself while a patient at Bedford Hospital have won a five figure settlement with two nhs trusts, criticising the decision to discharge him from a secure unit. 41 year old tony collins had a history of Mental Health problems, and had attempted suicide in the weeks before his death at the end of 2018. His family say there were repeated failings which led to his suicide. Newest analysis for the bbc says poor Mental Health in the workplace has risen in the last two years. Cost everton to more than £40 billion a year. They say it is down toa billion a year. They say it is down to a combination of rising wages and an increase in presenteeism, where employees come in even if they are u nwell employees come in even if they are unwell and less productive. Strict new child Safety Standards for Tech Companies are being unveiled by the uks data watchdog. The information commissioner says the so called age appropriate design code could be transformational. It includes 15 standards which Internet Companies will be expected to use when designing products for young people. The duchess of cambridge has launched a uk wide survey to help improve early childhood. In the survey, called five big questions, participants are asked for their opinion on what influences development and what period of childhood is most important for childrens happiness. The nspcc says the survey will provide fascinating insight into how we think about the early years and will be a vital source of information. The saudi authorities have denied that the phone of the amazon founder, jeff bezos, was hacked by the kingdoms crown prince, mohammed bin salman. A message from a phone number used by the prince had been implicated in the data breach, according to reports. In a tweet, Saudi Arabias Embassy in washington described the allegation in british and us newspapers as absurd. Coca cola has said it wont stop using plastic bottles because it says consumers still want them. A senior manager has told the bbc using only aluminium and Glass Packaging could push up the firms carbon footprint. Coca cola produces about 3 Million Tonnes of Plastic Packaging a year. At the company, one of the biggest producers of plastic raced, has promised to recycle as many plastic bottles as it uses by 2030. A long lost painting by the artist ls lowry has been sold at auction for more than £2. 6 million. The work, called the mill, pendlebury, depicts one of the artists typical scenes in north west england, and was painted in 1943. It had belonged to a manchester born scientist who took the painting with him to the us in 1949, leaving the art world unaware the piece even existed. It was then rediscovered following his death in august last year. Thats it. Back to victoria. This is cctv footage
of 41 year old tony collins, a Mental Health patient, on the day he took his own life. He wheeled himself out of his ward, past a nurses station, out of hospital and to a multistorey block of flats. Mr collins was missing for two and a half hours before medics noticed hed disappeared. He had a long history of depression, anxiety and paranoia and had tried to take his own life five times before his death. Despite that, at one point mr collins and his dad were physically locked out of a unit by a ward manager and told, youd be better off outside. His family say there were repeated failings by medical professionals including the decision to discharge him. Two nhs trusts bedford and east london have paid the family a five figure sum in damages,
both denying liability. I have been speaking to their solicitor who helped the family bring the claim and mr collins sister kelly and his parents, mick and beryl, in an exclusive interview, and i asked beryl how ill tony had been. On and off, used to run hot and cold. You could be talking to him on the phone, we could visit him and he would be talking and he would be bright as 9p and the next thing you know he was down, gone. And you knew by the look on his face. It was a look that you will never forget. In the last time i saw will never forget. In the last time isaw him, i will never forget. In the last time i saw him, i got that look and i turned to him at the hospital bed andi turned to him at the hospital bed and i said, stay calm i wont be long, youre coming home. That was the last time i saw him. Im so sorry. He had had a number of years
where he had suffered depression and anxiety. They said he had a personality disorder but we didnt find none of this out until after the death. I want to ask you what happened on the day your son died. We knew that he was missing from the hospital and on the day he died, we was continually phoning the hospital. Are you all right . Youll be all right. Pictures in my head. We continually phoned the hospital and we said, have you found tony . The reply was, cant talk to you, cant talk to you. I was somebody tell me something. We cant, someone
will be in touch. We rang and rang and eventually someone said, im sorry, and eventually someone said, im sorry, we and eventually someone said, im sorry, we cant talk to you youll have somebody phone you up. I went, 0k, and a while later the phone went and they said, hello, mr collins, we cant say nothing on the phone but youll be getting a call from the police. At that exact moment, a police. At that exact moment, a police car was coming round. They came into our house and they just said, im very sorry but we have just found your son. Deceased. Isaid, thank have just found your son. Deceased. I said, thank christ, where is he . And they went, terribly sorry. And how it had your brother got out of the hospital . He was being looked after . We did tell them he needs to be ina after . We did tell them he needs to be in a secure unit, we knew he was suicidal and we wanted him to be in a secure suicidal and we wanted him to be in
a secure unit. Some hospitals there isa a secure unit. Some hospitals there is a security key and code, there wasnt even that. His bed was near the exit. And what he had done on the exit. And what he had done on the day he died was he wheeled past nurses, out of the ward. Early in the morning. To a block of flats behind Bedford Hospital and he took his own life. Did anyone notice he was missing . Not for at least two and a half hours, and then they called the police. He was in a wheelchair because he had previously tried to take his own life a month before so he was in a wheelchair, he had a fractured back and two broken ankles and he just wheeled himself out and said goodbye. That is all we know, he said goodbye and wheeled himself out past the nurse station near the exit come out the doors and thatis near the exit come out the doors and that is all we knew. We were praying
that is all we knew. We were praying that he had gone to a friends, that is what we thought. Overnight, we woke up the next morning and they still hadnt found him. Beryl, what you think about the fact he was able to leave the hospital and take his own life . I begged them. I begged. Someone rang me and said they were getting him a safe house, six beds. A couple of days went by and i said to mick that i would ring because we dont know where he is, if he has gone. It was a place in shefford. I phoned him and the same man spoke to me and said its not suitable. I asked why and he said it was because it was upstairs and he cant walk. I said put him downstairs in the downstairs upstairs. If not, i will pay for a stair lift and you can keep it when he is better and back with us. And that was it. Never
heard no more. The fact that he was able to leave the hospital, the ward where he was being treated, and take his own life, what you think about that, mick . Absolutely. The only words i can use is absolutely shocked, that knowing that he had tried to do things in the past, to my way of thinking, i think that somebody should have said, do not your eye do not take your eyes off him because he is liable. He was also found at one stage upstairs in the hospital. And we believe that is what he was looking for, to try it again. And yet theyjust let him wonder. I have been to the building andl wonder. I have been to the building and i have been all the way to the window and opened a window. There is
fio window and opened a window. There is no way, no way he done that just off chance. He has been there before. What im saying is a must have left that hospital before, this was not a one off. That hospital before, this was not a oneoff. There is cctv footage which i know you sometimes watch, beryl, of tony when he managed to get out of tony when he managed to get out of Bedford Hospital and was going to the block of flats next door. Why do you look at it sometimes . Because i can see him alive. And he was so calm. And i found can see him alive. And he was so calm. And ifound out since, when someone calm. And ifound out since, when someone is going to do this, it is not the day they do it, its the day before. He planned it in his head. And we were going to see him the following tuesday. I want to take oui following tuesday. I want to take our audience back a little bit because there was a build up to
this. You have already mentioned a month earlier tony tried to take his own life. An hour after a consultant had told him on the phone he had been discharged from their care. He did end up back in hospital because it attempted to take his own life, he broke both his feet and the medical notes show he was experiencing anxiety, paranoia, panic attacks and chest pains. And he broke his back. And yet, three weeks later, he was discharged and despite it also be noted he was not taking some of his medication. What you think about what you would see 110w you think about what you would see now is a failing . Because they discharged him when he shouldnt have been . No way. He should have beenin have been . No way. He should have been ina have been . No way. He should have been in a secured unit from the off. The problem lies in the hospital itself, where the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. They dont talk. Know what the right hand is doing. They dont talk. You have four different commodities, the nurses, the matron, the consultant, the psychiatrists. They all do their paperwork and take it separately. It is like sitting here and all take what we take and what we are trying to fight for, which we think is being passed, isjust one man which 110w being passed, isjust one man which now i think has been passed, a consultant should be in charge of everybody and you should all recorded on a computer. When tony, it wasnt like that. They all had their own feelings. The psychiatrists saw tony very peaceful and calm. As we said to them, he is pulling the wool over your eyes. Because he knows that if he acts normal and acts up, you will put him away, which he doesnt want. It was the best thing for him but he didnt wa nt the best thing for him but he didnt want it. But when that psychiatrist
left, he carried on. Why didnt the nurse or whoever talk to each other, or talk to each other and find out . I want to ask you about the occasion, about a month or so before tony died, when you were physically locked out of a particular ward by the ward manager. And told that, you would be better off outside. Tell us what happened. Tony was put on leave, a weekends leave. Home . Sent home for a couple of days so i we nt sent home for a couple of days so i went to pick him up and he was in a real mess opened dressing gown hanging down, he was hanging over, dribbling. Isaid hanging down, he was hanging over, dribbling. I said to him, come on, lets go. I dont want to leave, i dont want to go out there. Youll
be ok when you get outside. It went on for a while and in the end she said, go and get dressed. I said, come on, will get in the car and get something. Anyhow. In the end she basically told him, you have got to go, it has been arranged and youre going. We went out, it was quite a long walk to get to the main doors and before we got to them, we got to the main doors and we let ourselves out and as we got out he hits the floor. He is banging his head on the floor, screaming, crying. And a young lady came up to me, she ran up to me. Young lady came up to me, she ran up tome. A young lady came up to me, she ran up to me. A medic. She said, what the hell is going on. I said i have taken him out of there and here he is. She said he is having a total nervous breakdown. Why have you got
it out here . Nervous breakdown. Why have you got it out here . I said because they have given him leave and she said he is completely gone i went, sorry, who are you . She went, i used to be in here and im now at next door and im on the psychiatric part of it because i have been there and i know what it does. You took him back in and that is when the ward manager. She said, get him and taken back in there and dont take no for an answer, just leave him there and walk away. So we went back. I got to the doors and banged on the doors and she says, now what you want. I saidi and she says, now what you want. I said i cant take him home like this. She said he will be ok. No, no, no, i have been told not to take fio no, no, i have been told not to take no foran no, no, i have been told not to take no for an answer. No, no, i have been told not to take 110 for an answer. We no, no, i have been told not to take no for an answer. We walked in the doors and she put her arms out like that and said no, he is going to. She said hell be ok, im telling you when outside. Is not. We started arguing and she ushered us out of the door and shut the door and locked it. And im calling her, i
banged on the door. She turned her back and walked away, overdo a desk and that like that as though she was writing i did not turn round and i ke pt writing i did not turn round and i kept banging and banging. I said we have been locked out. What you think about that . Absolutely disgusting. It is the anger that comes out. About that . Absolutely disgusting. It is the anger that comes outm is like we have lived through a horror movie. He went out against my will, against his will and within a couple of days later, he has tried to do it again. You are the solicitor who has helped bring a claim against the trusts involved, they have paid out a sum of money. A five figure sum sounds like a lot but its not. I know you dont want to reveal the amount but its not a lot of money. They have denied liability. What were the failings . We have heard some of them but in terms of the failings from both trusts, what were they . It starts as
basic as this was a man with depression, undiagnosed potential of that Mental Health issues, desperately seeking help. He was initially in the ward where they we re initially in the ward where they were locked out. He should never have been discharged in that state in the first place and to make him go on home leave in that state is not acceptable. To then not let them back in, physically shut them out when he is clearly having a crisis again isa when he is clearly having a crisis again is a clear feeling. Fast forward sadly from that, he then tried to take his own life and was admitted to Bedford Hospital with the broken feet and the injuries to the broken feet and the injuries to the back. You have a man who is recorded as being highly suicidal increasing anxiety, increasing paranoia. He is there because of an attempt to take his own life and they allow him to wield himself out
of the hospital. That make it to wheel himself. He was in hospital for about a month and it was recorded over and over again in the notes by nurses, orthopaedic doctors, that his symptoms were getting worse. He was incredibly paranoid. You have classic symptoms of someone who is mentally unwell and despite the plan being that the Psychiatric Liaison Team were meant to review him daily, it did not happen. Beryl has explained she wa nted happen. Beryl has explained she wanted him to be in a secure unit but there was not a place. That would have been a better way to treat him and support him . Absolutely. And we would have been at home knowing when we go there that he will be there. Absolutely. Are you satisfied with this small pay out and denial of liability from the hospital trusts involved . Pay out and denial of liability from the hospital trusts involved . We
wa nt the hospital trusts involved . We want to do more in the future. I know they are implementing changes in the system because, as we said, they was not communicating amongst themselves, the staff. And apparently because of our inquest that was quite lengthy and in depth, they are implementing changes. Because the coronet went through the failings. Yes, she listed them out the coroner. As a family, we want to help other people. We dont want them to go through this. Its not fair. How are you coping without tony . She aint. Missing her brother. But that is your motivation for speaking out . In actual fact, i said the first time i met you, it wasnt about money, i dont want money, i want people to feel safe
and they can go somewhere and get the help. Thank you very much, all of you, for talking to us. I know it has been really difficult, we can see that so we are really grateful and lets hope it changes things. Lets hope. And lets hope it changes things. Lets hope. Lets hope this programme can help things. We will do our best. We have to make the statements from the nhs trusts in bath an east london Nhs Foundation trust told us, we extend our sincere condolences at domestic and family. The trust undertook an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the events that led up to mr cullen is taking his life in 2018. We have learned from this and strive to improve practices and services into the future. The other trust said, we send our deepest condolences and unreserved apology to the family are mr collins. As an nhs trust we take pride in delivering Excellent Patient care and evidencing learning
when required. Our continued thoughts are with the family during this difficult time. We have made a number of changes to processes and procedures in the light of this case to ensure this incident will never be repeated. An e mail from amanda who tells us, my husband was discharged after an attempt on his life, then readmitted, then allowed out, then he took his own life. Staff vote at the time that he was at the most severe risk of suicide and he had a history of depression. My and he had a history of depression. My life is destroyed. If you want to get in touch with us, you can e mail us. And our actionline website is bbc. Co. Uk actionline. If you need help, there are loads of organisations listed there who you can contact. Airport checks are being set up in the uk to help prevent the spread of a new type of virus that has killed
nine people in china and infected more than 400. Travellers from wuhan, the area at the centre of the outbreak of this new form of coronavirus, will be separated from other passengers on arrival at heathrow as a precautionary measure. Chinese authorities have advised against travel to and from wuhan, it isa it is a city of 11 Million People. The outbreak of coronavirus has now spread to several places in china including the Capital Beijing and shanghai. We will talk to our Health Editor in a moment to see if we should be a lump at first, Stephen Mcdonell is our correspondence there. If we should be alarmed. Tell us about this virus firstly. The reason people are especially worried about this virus is that, as you can see behind me, the Chinese New Year means that hundreds of millions of people are on the move. They are
crisscrossing china and flying out overseas. Attitudes here over the last 48 hours had completely changed to towards this sickness because of the mass migration. Two days ago we found it difficult to speak to a traveller who was that concerned. Now you have people lining up to bite and face masks, they are cancelling trips or having them cancelled for them to predict for example, north korea has announced that all tour groups coming into the neighbouring country have been cancelled for the lunar new year. In wuhan, tourgroups cancelled for the lunar new year. In wuhan, tour groups have been cancelled in terms of leaving the city where the sickness first started, or the outbreak was detected. And of course people will be worried when you have an announcement like today when Officials Say they are worried about the virus mutating and becoming potentially more contagious. One of
the reasons people are concerned about the travel patterns is not only obviously the numbers but if you compare the travel numbers now to 2002, for example, when we had the sars to 2002, for example, when we had the sa rs outbreak to 2002, for example, when we had the sars outbreak when 600 people died, comparing that, just in the province where this virus started, there are now twice as many train journeys. In terms of people leaving to china, there are six times as many passengers boarding flights. Scientists are really worried about the potential for that to quickly spread, this virus they are trying to understand which causes pneumonia and has killed people and for that reason also, the World Health Organization is meeting in the coming hours to decide whether or not to declare this as a global emergency. Thank you. We can talk to our Health Editor, hugh pym. Planes being monitored at heathrow coming
from china but why . This is very much a precautionary measure given sources are stressing that with australia and the us already doing it with slightly tighter restrictions upon that whatll happen is three flights a week come in from happen is three flights a week come infrom wuhan happen is three flights a week come in from wuhan to heathrow and there will be Public Health officials at the terminal taking details from people who have arrived so that, if they develop symptoms, they have been given a leaflet to take away and they can ring up Health Officials who will follow it up. Equally, airport crews arriving had been briefed to watch out for people who look particularly sick and passed that on to Health Officials. It is fairly low key as a response and indicative of the fact that the International Health community is very much on close watch here. But not wanting to give any impression that the sudden it is going to spread around europe. And the symptoms are flu like symptoms and thatis symptoms are flu like symptoms and that is how it is spread, by people coughing and sneezing . The exact mode of transmission they are not
sure about, whether it is coughing or sneezing or you need to touch as somebody but it is respiratory, leading to pneumonia. That been nine deaths in china so the death rate is relatively low product they could be elderly people other conditions. I think the whole thing needs a bit of perspective but the World Health Organization is meeting as we had to decide whether to elevate it to a Global Health emergency status which puts all Health Systems on full alert. They might will not do that on this occasion but they are watching it closely. We will find out if they do that later. Thank you. Before 11. The man who brought us Alan Partidge and the thick of it tells us why hes turned his mischievous eye to the dickens classic, David Copperfield. Do get in touch with us through the morning. Neglect and serious failures in britains prisons are a National Scandal resulting in deaths which could be prevented according to a report out today. The charity which investigates deaths in publicly run facilities like prisons has found repeated failures in health care, communcation systems, emergency responses and medication. Theyve analysed findings from 61 prison inquests in england and wales in 2018 and 2019 and criticise the government for not taking action on official recommendations. Deaths in prisons have surged in recent years and are almost double what they were ten years ago. Lets talk now to donna and mark saunders, the parents of Dean Saunders who took his own life in chelmsford prison. Here he is pictured with his little son teddy. And sandra landsberg, whose sister annabella died at hmp peterborough following severe dehydration and organ failure. Also with us is deborah coles, director of the charity inquest, gethinjones ,who spent years in and out of prison, and now runs an organisation working with offenders. And mark fairhurst. A prison officer working at hmp liverpool and chair of the poa union. Hes been a prison officerfor 28 years. Welcome. Thank you for coming on the programme. Id like to start with you both, if i may. Why was dean in chelmsford jail . He was basically put in there as a place of safety because he had had a paranoid episode and they did not have a bed for him on the Mental Health ward. So he should never have been in jail . No. What happened . He went in there ina jail . No. What happened . He went in there in a high state of paranoia. He tried to take his own life at his
home address, so he was mentally assessed. Because they couldnt find him a place, they basically use the prison as a holding day, until after christmas but, unfortunately, while he was in there over the christmas period, they reduced the constant watch which he should have been on. The review at the time to take off was held with no medical qualified personnel to take that assessment. Mac at a prison officer made the decision . Its a multi disciplined review. Prison staff, medical staff, head of health care. The head of health care was there but had no medical training to make this decision and later on in the inquest it came out that it was a money saving operation. It came out that it was a moneysaving operation. What you think about that . Its false economy,
disgusting. It didnt save them any money because they had to pay out after his death. In that time when he wasnt being watched, constantly, he wasnt being watched, constantly, he took his own life . There were so many opportunities and failings where these opportunities arose and, you know, from our inquest we had 21 listings to prevent further deaths, and from the ppo report we had so many recommendations for the prison. You are led to believe this is kind of like a one off thing but i researched it myself, i went back ten years of reports, and there are clear patterns of same recommendations coming up again and again and you think if they changed
it when there were deaths before, may be our son would be here now. When did your son die . The 4th of january 2016. December, 2019, nearly four years later. For days and for days afterwards, we received an apology supposedly from the ministry ofjustice, but actually from the prison. The governor. Ofjustice, but actually from the prison. The governorlj ofjustice, but actually from the prison. The governor. I think you are comfortable with reading a little bit of it to our audience. Dear mrs saunders, i am writing to you as the governor of hmp chelmsford to offer you my sincere apologies on the death of your son dean. At this present on the 4th of january 2016 every death in custody deeply affects families and is a tragedy and affect other prisoners and improving safety and reducing self inflicted deaths is a key
priority for hmp. I acknowledged there was a breach of article two in this case, and you have suffered grief and distress as a result of this for which the ministry of justice apologises. How do you take that apology . For years and four days for that . If they were sorry they would have made more improvements than they have. And other people wouldnt still be dying. We heard all the way through, lessons will be learned, well, these lessons will be learned, well, these lessons are clearly not learned. You look at the figures, the deaths are still high. The year dean died it was the record highest ever and theyve only dropped a bit. Im going to bring in if i may, donna, thank you for reading that to our audience, our other gas and talk to sandra. Welcome to the programme. Thank you for coming on. I want you
to talk to us about your sister annabella because she died injail after being restrained and then left ina after being restrained and then left in a cell for 20 when without being checked on. Why wasnt she checked on . Yes, she was left around 630. She was restrained with five officers. Until 230 in the afternoon the next day one of the nurses poured water on her and kicked her legs and told her she was feckless and needed to get up. My sister was fighting for her life. They didnt ta ke fighting for her life. They didnt take her seriously. After restraining a person, you should
check them if they are ok for injuries and that never took place. She died of dehydration and organ failure. Their were a long list of recommendations, i think, from your sisters inquest. Have any been implemented . Is enough being done to make sure this doesnt happen, these preve nta ble make sure this doesnt happen, these preventable deaths dont happen in the future . We are not sure if they are being done or not, because its the same recommendations which have been happening in the past and nothing has changed so far because the number of deaths are so high and they have not been following the procedures and policies in management. Im going to read the statement from the prisons minister, lucy fraser. Let me put this to you, deborah coles, which says one of the most difficult thing to do here in my role is another person is taking their own life while in jail. My role is another person is taking their own life while injail. I cant begin to imagine how families must feel when they get the news. Far too many prisoners are self harming and its one of the reasons we introduced the key worker scheme in 2018, supported by the recruitment of 4400 extra prison officers so that every offender can get dedicated support and have someone to talk to. Weve also given over 25,000 staff better training to spot and prevent self harm and are investing an extra almost 3 billion to modernise prisons, combat drug use and improve the environment in which offenders can live. True . Thats happening . Which offenders can live. True . Thats happening . Im sorry but these are hollow words and i think weve heard very clearly from families the added trauma of families the added trauma of families going through what are really distressing intrusive processes in the hope that change will happen and what really concerns me and as evidence in our report, is that time and time again, we see the
same failings being repeated and we are told that action will be taken and yet, consistently, recommendations from coroners inquests, ombudsmen investigations, and the prison inspectorate, are being systematically ignored. and the prison inspectorate, are being systematically ignored. If you could implement three changes today, to try to prevent these kinds of deaths, what would they be . My first one would be to have a proper conversation about sentencing policy. And ending the unnecessary imprisonment of people who would be better looked after in the community. Like dean. Absolutely not. Theres far too many people in prison who should not be there. We need to Resource Services in the community because, as our report shows, so many people who end up in prison have been failed by statutory services, Mental Health addictions, nowhere to live, so thats the first
thing. The second thing is they should be a mandatory requirement to act on the recommendations that are made because these are potentially life saving and there is nobody within the Prison Service who was charged with actually monitoring and auditing what actually happens. They are paying those people to do those findings and then they are not doing anything with it. Whats the point . Its anything with it. Whats the point . Its a waste of money. Anything with it. Whats the point . Its a waste of money. They are just sitting in an intro somewhere. Let me bring in mark, prison officerfor 28 years. Chair of the poa union and gethinjones is with us, who spent eight years i think inside for various offences. Tell us about this from your point of view and your officers point of view. All ive heard is harrowing in my heart does go out to as families that you suffered this. We are underfunded, under resourced, we dont get adequate training, and lets be
honest, there are people in prison with complex Mental Health needs, who need to be in secure units in the community. Thats a government issue thing, they need to get their hands in their pocket and fund the services. So when the prisons minister says weve got more prison officers being trained, recruiting more, more prison officers being trained to spot and prevent self harm, more money going into modernising prisons, you say what . |j say ive been on the job 28 years andl say ive been on the job 28 years and i receive no Mental Health training whatsoever and all of that is on offer to our members is a three hour Mental Health awareness course. Now, if you are serious about training us to do people with complex needs, why cant we shadow people in secure Mental Health units for a couple of months, spot the signs, spot the symptoms, and get methods to deal with people who are the most vulnerable in our care . That is all you get, you and your colleagues, three hour Mental Health
awareness course . If you are lucky because training is not a priority in the Prison Service. Its not even compulsory. Its not compulsory, its as and when. Gethin, you have been inside. Whats it like from your point of view . For me, to give it context, prison became my life, so it context, prison became my life, soi it context, prison became my life, so i was born into the system, so i came to the care system, and it came up came to the care system, and it came up negative, my behaviour, i had my first custodial at 14, my second at 15, speights i spent eight years of my life in and out of prison and also developed a dependency on heroin, so for me, prison was my home. Thats what it was for me. Heroin, so for me, prison was my home. Thats what it was for mem was the right place for you. 18 convictions. Yes, 56 offences and 18 convictions. Yes, 56 offences and 18 convictions which were the result of me acting out in my behaviours
through to the trauma i had experienced growing up as a child not getting myself support i needed to develop as a human being. What a lot of the stuff i advocate for todayis lot of the stuff i advocate for today is what we are doing is we are locking up the most Vulnerable People in society and ive seen this shift and ive been in the system, and back of the 80s and 90s i would say 80 of the prison population where what i call career criminals and only 20 of the Mental Health, misuse of alcohol and substance issue, and today i would say 80 of the prison system is substance, Mental Health issue and alcohol issue, and what it is is the prison syste m issue, and what it is is the prison system isnt fully equipped to deal with that level of need. Right, what is certainly popular with some voters in this country are policies that sound like tougher prison sentences, longer prison sentences, building more prisons, more prison places. What is less popular broadly
speaking, i know its slightly more nuanced like that, is looking after people in the community, rehabilitation of such. |j people in the community, rehabilitation of such. I think what they should do is look outside the prison walls. Invest outside before people get inside. Thats where it is needed. They need to help out there and they are not getting the support they need. Unfortunately, they find themselves on the wrong side of the law, end up in prison, totally the wrong environment. Mental health shouldnt be put into prison as a place of safety, they should be put in hospitals. Where they can get treatment. The fact you even have to say that out loud is unbelievable. I know. The challenges we are talking about a government here, using more prisons, having longer sentences, and i think one of the things we need to do is firstly the things we need to do is firstly the human stories of those who are dying should be read by all government ministers, so they understand the context in which people are ending up in the system,
but also in terms of public safety, we know that prisons dont work because people come out and then theres the revolving door of coming back in. Some people would argue the reason prison doesnt work is because the sentences arent long enough. I heard a really good governor one time and who said to me if someone goes to prison once or twice they have to take responsibility for the behaviour, if they come back to prison five, six, seven times, as a system, we need to look at what we are doing wrong. Absolutely, but we are moving on now toa absolutely, but we are moving on now to a conversation about whether its right for people to be in prison and everybody watching, politicians would agree, somebody with a Mental Health problem should not be put in a prison in the meantime because there is no bed available in a secure unit or at a hospital. Everyone can agree with that. But thats the reality of whats happening about the issue we need to deal with. Halfway happening about the issue we need to dealwith. Halfway needs happening about the issue we need to deal with. Halfway needs to be
changed. One thing i always say is we dont give out life sentences but for our son, we dont give out life sentences but for ourson, and we dont give out life sentences but for our son, and many, many others, thats exactly what they got. |j for our son, and many, many others, thats exactly what they got. I want to bring in. We will have to cope with what is done to us by the courts. It would complex Mental Health needs. And i agree with what you have said before, a cost saving exercise, because the public need to be aware that quite often one prison officer will be left on a wing with over 100 prisoners. There could be 12 people who need observations, some of those are on five observations an hour, and what i have said today. Just so we can learn more, that means what . A prison officer going to check on them . Five times an hour. Through them . Five times an hour. Through the door . Going on . Interaction. If they are on lock up, there will speak to the prisoner to the door to make sure they are all i could imagine being on a wing on your own especially at night, when the Staffing Levels a re especially at night, when the Staffing Levels are depleted, and
having to deal with one prisoner in distress, being at that door for one hour and you got 11 other people on five observations an hour, who need to be checked, what im saying is if you are on five observations or more an hour thats a constant watch, it should be one to one supervision, so we know 20 47, that prisoner is catered for. Im going to leave it there and read the messages. Ive just left jail after ten years, there and read the messages. Ive just leftjail after ten years, i self harmed all the way through. Nothing has changed. The prisons have no money. The key worker scheme is just have no money. The key worker scheme isjust a have no money. The key worker scheme is just a rebrand have no money. The key worker scheme isjust a rebrand of have no money. The key worker scheme is just a rebrand of old have no money. The key worker scheme isjust a rebrand of old measures. Jason says if we decided what prisons are for in this country these things might not happen. Punishment or rehabilitation . Thank you all of you for coming on the programme. I appreciate your time, thank you. And our actionline website is bbc. Co. Uk actionline. If you need help there are loads of organisations listed there who you can contact. This friday sees the cinema release of a Ground Breaking version of the Charles Dickens classic,
David Copperfield. Starring dev patel in the lead role, the personal history of David Copperfield is charming, funny, and completely colour blind in its casting. And the man behind it all is Armando Iannucci. The writer and director is most famous for his comedy writing, from alan partridge, the thick of it, and veep a long running satire all about washington politics. Heres a clip from his latest film. I apologise for my rudeness. Oh, hes apologising, jip. Shall we forgive him . He says we shall. Thank you,jip. Think nothing of it, sir. Speaks very well. It was actually me. I like to pretend he speaks. Some people think it idiotic. Oh no, i do it myself, all the time. Dont i, mr. Appletree . Yes. I im David Copperfield. Are you still being the tree . No. It is funny. Armando told us why he was inspired to adapt this particular Charles Dickens story. Its actually, in many ways, true to the book. When i reread the book about eight, nine years ago, i was impressed by how modern and fresh and original. Its a funny, funny book. I think, yeah, we do have this image of dickens as being a fusty, dark victorian novelist who writes about mud and fog and street urchins and depression. And yes, there is that. And, you know, there are themes in the film that touch on that. But hes also very, very funny. He was really by the age of 21, 22, he was, like, the most famous writer in the world. And he was famous for his funny comedy, really. And he was like the precursor to charlie chaplin, in a way in how internationalfame was. And ijust remember reading the book and just thinking a lot of the themes. You know, the whole book is really about status anxiety david growing up, not quite knowing
whether he fits in, whether. Who he really is. Do you think there are parallels with our lives now in 2020 . Absolutely. Its funny. The younger audiences really seem to be connecting with the film because they say. Its all about david worrying about the friends hes made are they the right friends . What will they say when they find out that, as a child, i worked in a factory . And its all that, you know, do they know about me . And has he. Has he fallen in love with the right person . What does she think of me . Have i made the right decision . Theres this constant anxiety. And he only really resolves it at the end by deciding to write it down, to become a writer. And you wanted dev patel. Yes. As David Copperfield, i think after you saw him in lion. Yes. And you have been deliberately colourblind in your casting. And i think you did have a conversation with dev patel about whether you should say in the script that he had an indian dad, but decided against it. The only person i could think of to play david was dev. He sort of inhabits the spirit of david so perfectly, because dev, ive seen in skins playing this sort
of gawky, embarrassed teenager, which theres elements of that there and then in lion, be very strong and charismatic and focused. And david goes from one to the other. And dev. Whoever plays david has to hold the film together because hes in every scene for two hours and dev does it perfectly. If hed said no, im not sure i would have made the film, really, because i could see him as david. Once thats done, you then say, ok, so. Does he have an indian father . Does he. And i thought, no, ijust want to choose people like ive chosen dev who, for me, just inhabits the spirit of the character, the best person to play that part. And it happens in theatre all the time. For some reason, film, drama on television, its all literal and i just think i want something that explores more the joy and variety thats in the book. And now youve done that, do you think that will become the norm in films . Because ive read interviews with british actors non White British actors whove said, ill never get a part
in a costume drama in this country because all the roles are white so im going to have to go to america to get decent roles. Yes. And i hope that change peoples minds about how they cast films. Im not saying this is prescriptive and how every programme should be made, every film should be made. But ijust think its. There is such a lot of talent there. I mean, dev himself said, normally in a film like this hed be carrying the tea tray and standing at the back. And thatjust seems, for a man of his talent and ability who should be front and centre of the screen thats just tragic to think that thats a possibility. How do you respond, then, to other directors and writers like, for example, julian fellowes, who says, when something is set in a different historical period, you cannot make it untruthful . Well, first of all, this is a work of fiction as is downton abbey. I can make it any way i like. Victoria laughs. Ifjulian fellowes doesnt like the idea, he doesnt have to come and watch the film. You know, there are plenty other adaptations. Yeah. Do you think Charles Dickens would be on twitter if he were alive now . Armando laughs. I mean, he was a big social influence. And the idea of restricting him to whatever it is 240 characters is kind of interesting, in that he is so expansive a writer. I think hed be on instagram. Hed be on instagram, yeah. Hed blog hed definitely blog. Hed definitely blog. Hed be on question time regularly. Hed be on question time. And, you know, we forget he wrote his novels as serials he serialized them. They were issued in monthly and weekly installments. Very often when he was writing, he didnt know what was going to happen next. Hed always end on a cliffhanger and hed then work out the plot hed go on these long walks to work out the plot for next weeks installment. So hed definitely be writing the equivalent of an eastenders or. Hed probably write his own sunday evening serial. Its a very british film. Its a very multicultural film. I wanted to ask you, is there anything about this film that is a riposte to brexit from your point of view . Armando laughs. Well, only in that, you know. I think theres a danger that we see britain because of whats been happening recently we see britain as an enclosed, inward looking defence of an exclusive country. And ive never seen that. I think britain is actually an outward going, generous, kind, creative and talented country. And i think we mustnt lose sight of that. Yeah. This film is tapping in on the kind of britain i see. Did you by any chance watch question time last week with laurence fox . No, ive been catching up. Ive been in edit for. I know whats going on. Yes. Imean, he. He also. He agreed with you on how he sees the nature of our country. Were the most tolerant, lovely country. Yeah. He also described an audience member who called him a white privileged male as racist. And hes said in a follow up interview, identity politics is extremely racist, as well. I wondered what you thought of that. Well, i. I mean, im very much against labels, really, which is why, as i said, i just cast people for. For the spirit that they have rather than their skin tone or their, you know, what school they went from. You know, im really not one
who wants to buy into the whole business of racial identity and class identity as weapons i much prefer to kind of move on and just discuss who the person is, really. Yeah. Do you think its a bad time to be a privileged white male . Armando laughs. Well, i refer you to the answer ive just given, in that. I dont really mind who you are or where youre from. Have you accepted brexit now . You wanted a peoples vote. Yes. Absolutely. And i think its important that, you know, those who supported remain we lost. And, actually, its now about making sure that britain is a fantastic place, rather than sitting at the sidelines hoping that this venture fails. I think weve actually got to be positive. And, as i say, you know, the acting talent here, the creativity we have in this country, the bbc. Everything we have to. We have to cheer as something thats so important to what this country is. Obviously, youve created many programmes at the bbc. You will know that the director general is standing down in the summer. Some people see this as a moment of threat, potentially, for the licence fee model, but do you think maybe that does have to change . Well, i mean, iargued in the mactaggart lecture four years ago that the bbc mustnt be shy about making money internationally. Its such a strong name, that if it offered a Subscription Service internationally where you could say, for 5 a month buy into every past bbc programme, the way netflix operates and so on i think thats good. I think what we mustnt do is try and price people out here from seeing bbc programmes. I think we have to make it as free as we can, but not feel afraid to make money elsewhere from the quality. And also go in partnerships with amazon, with netflix, with hbo, who have the money. Yeah. Obviously you are famous for your political writing. Politics today in this country
is it ripe for satire, or is it beyond satire . Well, i personally find its changing so much that if you want to do some long form permanent. A response to whats going on, it would instantly be out of date within two weeks. Really . The rules are changing all the time. And also, satire for want of a better name relies on there being a set of conventions. So then when people depart from those conventions, you can point out how theyve departed. But if there are no longer conventions. You know, if donald trump says, i can go out, shoot someone in the face and still get elected. If a party can call itself factcheckuk because itjust wants to, then. Then there are no rules. There are no rules. I think the people who are more effective are the ones who act like journalists, likejohn oliver, who has, like, a whole research team, you know. Because the politicians are becoming their own entertainers. And Boris Johnson delivers a joke with every speech. Trump is a salesperson hes interested in ratings. So i think its. I think the comedians
who are operating like investigative journalists are actually. And are looking forensically at whats happening on a weekly basis are the ones who are having more impact than, say, me doing a kind of drama based on the situation. Will you go back to political comedy or not, do you think . Oh, yes. Imean. Yes. I mean, it depends what the form is. Im just about to do a sci fi series on hbo thats coming out thats set 40 in the future, you know. This is avenue 5. But its sort of looking at today, really. 0k. All sci fi is looking at today, really. Well, thank you very much forjoining us. Pleasure. And good luck with the personal life of David Copperfield. It is out on general release on the 24th, i think. Yes. Thank you. Bbc newsroom live is coming up next. Have a good day. Hello, good morning. A decent start for the favoured few but that the exception to essentially a dry day for most parts of the british isles. Still really rather cloudy, more cloud perhaps than we saw across southern britain during the course of yesterday and for that you have to thank the High Pressure drifting further towards the atlantic, so there is a moist flow across the northern and eastern flanks which is dragged to the cloud into central and southern parts of the british isles. It always was there over the past couple of days across the north and west of scotland particularly where its given us the odd piece of rain. Sunshine this afternoon, eastern side of the pennines on the grampians, and temperatures 9 12. During the evening and overnight, not a great deal changes for the cloud thick enough for the odd spot of light rain and drizzle, never amounting to very much at all, but the mist and fog will return but not necessarily in the same places as was the case this morning, so bear that one in mind if you are up
early. Temperatures, 4 7. See you later. Good morning. Welcome to bbc newsroom live. The uk is to monitorflights. Chinese authorities have admitted the country is now at the most critical stage of the virus. New bbc Analysis Finds the cost of poor Mental Health in the workplace
has increased dramatically in the last two years. And the duchess of cambridge is in cardiff helping to launch what has been described as