reasonable worst—case scenarios is behind us, we need to deal with that loss of control.— loss of control. well, i think there was still an _ loss of control. well, i think there was still an awful _ loss of control. well, i think there was still an awful lot... _ loss of control. well, i think there was still an awful lot... 50 - loss of control. well, i think there was still an awful lot... 50 the - was still an awful lot... so the meeting that patrick and i asked for on the tenth from memory these things were discussed. but remember at that point it was still not at all seen in whitehall like this is going to be... nobody really in whitehall thought that a month from now we were going to be in the biggest crisis the country has seen since 1916. the view was much more that if this is really going to happen, it is not going to happen for months and you can see repeated references in documents to number ten, the prime minister, that referred to if there is sustained community transmission in britain, then the crisis will come two or three months after. i remember at this point, although there was in fact we now know transmission in this country at the time, that was not known then. so the whole system was at this point, and notjust now, but three weeks after this point, still thinking of this is something that was going to land on people in may orjune, not something that was going to overwhelm everybody in mid—march. going to overwhelm everybody in mid-march— going to overwhelm everybody in mid-march. ., ., , ., ., mid-march. you had sent a text to the number— mid-march. you had sent a text to the number ten _ mid-march. you had sent a text to the number ten action _ mid-march. you had sent a text to the number ten action whatsapp l mid-march. you had sent a text to - the number ten action whatsapp group on the 6th of february saying, the chief scientist told me today it is probably out of control now and will sweep the world. you plainly told the other communicants to that whatsapp group what you had told the chief scientist. during the next week before the prime minister departed for chiesny, why was that message not being re—communicated to him in those that were said to him? why was he not being told that the chief scientist was my view is that it will sweep the world and it is coming? i it will sweep the world and it is cominu ? ~ ., , it will sweep the world and it is cominu ? ~ .,, ., coming? i think it was part of the aeneral coming? i think it was part of the general view _ coming? i think it was part of the general view from _ coming? i think it was part of the general view from the _ coming? i think it was part of the l general view from the department coming? i think it was part of the - general view from the department of health and the cabinet office that this was all still murky and in the future. they were not banning alarm bells at this point, far from future. they were not banning alarm bells at this point, farfrom it, they were going skiing. will; bells at this point, far from it, they were going skiing. why were ou? you they were going skiing. why were you? you are _ they were going skiing. why were you? you are the _ they were going skiing. why were you? you are the one _ they were going skiing. why were you? you are the one who - they were going skiing. why were you? you are the one who had i they were going skiing. why were - you? you are the one who had spoken to the chief scientist and had received a text from him. figs to the chief scientist and had received a text from him. as you can see, i received a text from him. as you can see. i spoke — received a text from him. as you can see. i spoke to _ received a text from him. as you can see, i spoke to him _ received a text from him. as you can see, i spoke to him on _ received a text from him. as you can see, i spoke to him on multiple - see, i spoke to him on multiple occasions and i organised a meeting for him to come in and talk to the pm as they requested. in for him to come in and talk to the pm as they requested.— for him to come in and talk to the pm as they requested. in the nose that went to _ pm as they requested. in the nose that went to the _ pm as they requested. in the nose that went to the prime _ pm as they requested. in the nose that went to the prime minister i that went to the prime minister around the same time why did you as his advisor, perhaps chief adviser, not tell him? my information is containment has failed and the virus is coming? i containment has failed and the virus is cominu ? ., containment has failed and the virus is coming?— it - is coming? i did tell him that. it is coming? i did tell him that. it is not here- _ is coming? i did tell him that. it is not here. fact _ is coming? i did tell him that. it is not here. fact things - is coming? i did tell him that. it is not here. fact things are - is coming? i did tell him that. it is not here. fact things are notl is not here. fact things are not written down — is not here. fact things are not written down does _ is not here. fact things are not written down does not - is not here. fact things are not written down does not mean i is not here. fact things are not i written down does not mean they is not here. fact things are not - written down does not mean they were not communicated. i was talking to the prime minister about all sorts of things all of the time and i was having repeated conversations with patrick, many of which are not recorded in diaries, from early january onwards. lots of things like this i passed on. but overall, as you can see, the system was not in emergency mode at this time. do you acce -t emergency mode at this time. do you accept there — emergency mode at this time. do you accept there is _ emergency mode at this time. do you accept there is no _ emergency mode at this time. do you accept there is no formal— accept there is no formal communication to the prime minister from anybody at this stage saying the information from the chief scientist is to the effect that containment has likely failed? you have the containment has likely failed? turn. have the documents, if you say so, i am sure that is right. i have the documents, if you say so, i am sure that is right.— am sure that is right. i think it is robabl am sure that is right. i think it is probably time — am sure that is right. i think it is probably time for _ am sure that is right. i think it is probably time for a _ am sure that is right. i think it is probably time for a break. - am sure that is right. i think it is probably time for a break. sorry| am sure that is right. i think it is l probably time for a break. sorry to interrupt — probably time for a break. sorry to interrupt. quarter past three, please — interrupt. quarter past three, lease. ., ., ., . �* �* , please. you are watching bbc news and we are — please. you are watching bbc news and we are covering _ please. you are watching bbc news and we are covering the _ please. you are watching bbc news and we are covering the uk - please. you are watching bbc news and we are covering the uk covid . and we are covering the uk covid enquiry were two borisjohnson's closest aides have been speaking about what was going on during the height of the pandemic. they have been giving evidence earlier today. one of those, dominic cummings, who we havejust been one of those, dominic cummings, who we have just been hearing from, one of those, dominic cummings, who we havejust been hearing from, is the former chief adviser to boris johnson and he was speaking about the time that he joined the cabinet office, describing it as a dumpster fire, and also speak it in great detail about what he described as the dysfunctional set up in number ten. we have also been hearing this morning from lord kane, the former number ten director of communications, and won a boris johnson's closest advisers. let's have a listen to what he said earlier this morning. okay, we will be hearing from him shortly. we will be hearing from him shortly. we will be hearing from kelly price who is at the enquiry for us and she will be giving us her take on all of the proceeding. let's recap what we have been hearing, and you can follow this on our live pages as well, all of the updates are there. we were told, dominic cummings told the enquiry, that lockdown was thought of as a crazy idea. he said he was asked about mitigation and suppression and about putting test and try systems in place. let's have and try systems in place. let's have a listen festival to lee kane, the former communications director, told the enquiry earlier today. i former communications director, told the enquiry earlier today.— the enquiry earlier today. i think an one the enquiry earlier today. i think anyone who _ the enquiry earlier today. i think anyone who has _ the enquiry earlier today. i think anyone who has worked - the enquiry earlier today. i think anyone who has worked with - the enquiry earlier today. i think anyone who has worked with the the enquiry earlier today. i think - anyone who has worked with the prime minister for a anyone who has worked with the prime ministerfor a period of time anyone who has worked with the prime minister for a period of time will become exhausted sometimes. he is quite a challenge character to work with just because he will oscillate, he will take a decision from the last person in the room. that is pretty well documented. that is in terms of his style of operating and it is rather exhausting from time to time. i think what will probably be clear in covid is it was the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set, which is different, i think, from not potentially be up to thejob of being prime minister. rah? the “ob of being prime minister. why do the job of being prime minister. why do ou the job of being prime minister. why do you mean — the job of being prime minister. why do you mean the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set? could you you straightforward english. — could you you straightforward english, mister kane, please. i think english, mister kane, please. think he is english, mister kane, please. i think he is somebody who would often delay in making decisions. we would often seek counsel from multiple sources and he would change his mind on issues. 50 sources and he would change his mind on issues. ., ., ., on issues. 50 we heard that that boris johnson — on issues. 50 we heard that that boris johnson was _ on issues. 50 we heard that that boris johnson was described - on issues. 50 we heard that that boris johnson was described as l on issues. 50 we heard that that - boris johnson was described as quite borisjohnson was described as quite a challenging character to work with and that was lee kane, the former communications director at number ten. we can speak now to our correspondent who has been following the enquiry inside that room. ellie pricejoins us now. tell us, dominic cummings dominating this afternoon's evidence. tell us what was most stark about what he has been saying stop plenty to pick from, to be honest. ~ ., ., ., ., ., honest. what we are going through at the moment — honest. what we are going through at the moment is _ honest. what we are going through at the moment is quite _ honest. what we are going through at the moment is quite a _ honest. what we are going through at the moment is quite a technical, - the moment is quite a technical, turgid trudge, if you like, through how downing street was organised, how downing street was organised, how decisions were made and certain meetings were put to dominic cummings. try to get to the bottom of exactly when downing street thought there was a problem that needed to be acted on. what has come out of the enquiry that people will find surprising is perhaps that dominic cummings thought in essence that decisions should have been made earlier and covid should have been taken more seriously earlier than it was. we heard yesterday for example that boris johnson was. we heard yesterday for example that borisjohnson had not been briefed at all for ten days during the half term break in february. obviously by the end of march britain was in lockdown. we are getting a little bit more on the timing of who thought what and when. there is also some interesting comments he made about whether there had been a plan for those vulnerable people, so whether there was a shielding plan. he said there was no plan to even have a plan. we are getting a little sense of all of that, i think. getting a little sense of all of that, ithink. this getting a little sense of all of that, i think. this issue of how the structure of government where it was something he picked up on earlier. to be honest, there was some humour in it even. it was put to him is there any part of the british government that you did think worked well? he thought for a while and said british special forces. well? he thought for a while and said british specialforces. we well? he thought for a while and said british special forces. we can hear some of that exchange now. i hear some of that exchange now. i would say overall it is a widespread failure, _ would say overall it is a widespread failure, but— would say overall it is a widespread failure, but pockets of excellent people — failure, but pockets of excellent people and pockets of excellent team is doing _ people and pockets of excellent team is doing excellent work within an overall— is doing excellent work within an overall dysfunctional system. in your overall dysfunctional system. in your statement you describe how following this e—mail that the prime minister whilst initially agreeing with the sentiment of your trenchant views on aspects of the government machine, listen to, to use your word, poppies, and then got cold feet. what are poppins? so word, poppies, and then got cold feet. what are poppins?- feet. what are poppins? so the context for— feet. what are poppins? so the context for this _ feet. what are poppins? so the context for this document - feet. what are poppins? so the context for this document is - feet. what are poppins? so the context for this document is it | context for this document is it comes after eight weeks of a nightmare situation kicked off by the pm. i nightmare situation kicked off by the pm. ., ., ., , . ., ., the pm. i do apologise. what are po ins? the pm. i do apologise. what are poppins? they — the pm. i do apologise. what are poppins? they are _ the pm. i do apologise. what are poppins? they are what - the pm. i do apologise. what are poppins? they are what people l the pm. i do apologise. what are| poppins? they are what people in rivate poppins? they are what people in private office _ poppins? they are what people in private office referred _ poppins? they are what people in private office referred to - poppins? they are what people in private office referred to when - poppins? they are what people in| private office referred to when the prime _ private office referred to when the prime minister would make a decision about_ prime minister would make a decision about something. some element of the system _ about something. some element of the system offered in the cabinet office would _ system offered in the cabinet office would not _ system offered in the cabinet office would not like what had been agreed and in _ would not like what had been agreed and in the _ would not like what had been agreed and in the best sir humphrey, yes, minister— and in the best sir humphrey, yes, minister style, they would wait for me and _ minister style, they would wait for me and other people to not be around the prime _ me and other people to not be around the prime minister and they would p0p the prime minister and they would pop in_ the prime minister and they would pop in to _ the prime minister and they would pop in to see the prime minister and say, dear— pop in to see the prime minister and say, dear prime minister, i think this decision really wasn't the best idea _ this decision really wasn't the best idea. perhaps you should trolley on it. idea. perhaps you should trolley on it this— idea. perhaps you should trolley on it this was— idea. perhaps you should trolley on it. this was a general problem. you should trolley _ it. this was a general problem. you should trolley on _ it. this was a general problem. yarn. should trolley on it, meaning? it. this was a general problem. you should trolley on it, meaning? i - it. this was a general problem. you should trolley on it, meaning? i am usin: the should trolley on it, meaning? i am using the generic _ should trolley on it, meaning? i am using the generic term _ should trolley on it, meaning? i am using the generic term we offer news about— using the generic term we offer news about the _ using the generic term we offer news about the pm. the using the generic term we offer news about the pm-— about the pm. the term you use and his cabinet secretary _ about the pm. the term you use and his cabinet secretary use _ about the pm. the term you use and his cabinet secretary use and - about the pm. the term you use and his cabinet secretary use and his - his cabinet secretary use and his director of communications used and other officials no doubt about his propensity...? other officials no doubt about his propensity- - - ?— other officials no doubt about his --roensi ...? , . propensity. . . ? pretty much everyone called it the — propensity. . . ? pretty much everyone called it the trolley, _ propensity. . . ? pretty much everyone called it the trolley, yes. _ propensity. . . ? pretty much everyone called it the trolley, yes. one - propensity. . . ? pretty much everyone called it the trolley, yes. one of- called it the trolley, yes. one of the other striking _ called it the trolley, yes. one of the other striking moments - called it the trolley, yes. one of. the other striking moments during his testimony this morning at this afternoon has been some of the fruity language used to describe other government ministers, some of which i can't possibly tell you on the television, but suffice to say i think he called the then health secretary matt hancock a joker, to give you some sense of the source of words he was using and the sense he was betraying. he said it was a sentiment shared by a lot of advisers across government. i think it paint a picture of how decisions were made, but also how different how different politicians, different advisors, different crucial people and government viewed each other at the time. bud and government viewed each other at the time. �* ., , ,., ., the time. and we have seen some of these communications, _ the time. and we have seen some of these communications, whatsapp i these communications, whatsapp messages, e—mails before. how much more detail are we getting in this enquiry? how much more of these messages are we seeing compared to what has come out previously? tote messages are we seeing compared to what has come out previously? we are definitely getting _ what has come out previously? we are definitely getting more _ what has come out previously? we are definitely getting more as _ what has come out previously? we are definitely getting more as the - what has come out previously? we are definitely getting more as the days - definitely getting more as the days go by. what happens at the end of the day during these enquiry days is we see this evidence pop up on the screen and at the end of the day there is a full disclosure and all there is a full disclosure and all the documents are published online. that is why you often get more news lies later in the day and the newspapers have something else to go on the next morning because we get more and more details that you can really drill down into. the whole thing is painted a picture of what things were like. worth mentioning of course this morning lee kane as well, talking about his old boss borisjohnson, the prime minister. context here is quite interesting. lee kane resigned back in november 2020, but when he resigned it was on good terms with the prime minister. the prime minister borisjohnson at that time described him as a true friend and ally. today there was a sense of he was kind of being fairly nuanced in his criticism and vaguely defensive in some ways of some of the decisions that borisjohnson has made, or made during that period. it was a slightly different testimony that we have heard from some. but of course lee kane himself said, look, this was a prime minister whose skill sets were not necessarily match to this crisis, in effect he wasn't the right guy to lead us through covid and he was exhausting to work for because he changed his mind so often and he would make a decision based on who he had spoken to last in the room. so a real broad picture being painted as to exactly what was going on during that time. and the objective of this enquiry is to learn lessons for the future, and it is expected to go for some time until at least 2026. have you noticed covering this enquiry that it is getting bogged down in the details, or is it moving through the different topics, lockdown, shielding earlier today, is a covering a broad range of topics or is it focusing on certain areas? i think the whole point of this enquiry is to get bogged down in the detail and there is plenty of detail to get through. this is week three of this part of the enquiry, which is all about decision making during the covid pandemic. we have already heard from scientist, from academics and other experts, on a broad range of issues like long covid, like the implications on certain minority ethnic groups. real detail. this week certainly is a political one and really telling, for example, yesterday lee kane was meant to give evidence yesterday, in the timetable, and it gives you a sense ofjust how important enquiry thinks the information from these number ten insiders really is, that they had to give the time to it yesterday, and they are not going to rush it because they want to get down to it. a real sense of it by all means get bogged down in the detail, that is the point, but this is a lesson learning process, the whole point as baroness hallett has said all along is to make sure in effect it doesn't happen again. she said that she has heard evidence from scientists that the next pandemic is a case of one and not a fan type is of the essence in terms of learning those lessons. she will be really treading through all those details on all the different areas of the pandemic and this week is very much politics week. this of the pandemic and this week is very much politics week.- of the pandemic and this week is very much politics week. this is of hue very much politics week. this is of huge public _ very much politics week. this is of huge public interest. _ very much politics week. this is of huge public interest. are - very much politics week. this is of huge public interest. are there - huge public interest. are there members of the public sitting alongside you? are the people coming in to watch this enquiry themselves? there are people and some people in the public gallery. there have been people protesting outside most days to be honest, holding up signs, many from the bereaved families, people who have lost people or who are concerned about whether this is being done properly. this is a public enquiry so it is open and you can watch it all along. i think what is quite striking in the evidence we have heard today, and this week, is very much the tone. the fact, many of those are already out, but exactly what decisions were being made and when and how they were being made, the striking thing is the tone of a lot of these whatsapp messages in terms of how they make families feel. for example, we heard a whatsapp exchange with boris johnson talking about older people and whether older people should in effect be let go to save everybody else. it doesn't sound terribly palatable but these are the high—level decisions being made. if you lost a loved one, an older person, then obviously that is the kind of language you probably don't want to hear. but i think it is quite telling that these are the conversations that were being hard, and that is exactly what baroness hallett feels she needs to continue to go through. flan hallett feels she needs to continue to go through-— to go through. can you tell us a bit i more about what dominic cummings to go through. can you tell us a bit - more about what dominic cummings has been saying in terms of lockdown being thought of as a crazy idea, about the fact that borders were not closed for some time. what evidence has he been giving about that? he: was in effect saying that lockdown was in effect saying that lockdown was not an option in the february time. britain went into lockdown on the 23rd of march and in effect he was saying the consideration of lockdown, basically there was not a consideration because the assumption had been based on a plan for how you would deal with a flu pandemic. essentially the plan was you can't stop it and you willjust have to cope with what happens once it kills lots of people and how to deal with that. his suggestion was the thinking hadn't really planned how to stop or suppress the coronavirus, how to stop the pandemic. in effect theissue how to stop the pandemic. in effect the issue of lockdown was not discussed soon enough and then when it was, it was already a bit late. that is something we heard this morning from lee kane as well, who talked about the fact that the decision had been made on the 13th of march that in effect a lockdown was inevitable, but it took another ten days for the british government to implement it. his argument was thatis to implement it. his argument was that is pretty quick in the world of a government machine, because you need to get all sorts of things in place, cabinetapproval, departments to make sure it all happens. from that point of view it is not something you can do quickly, but obviously the criticism all along of this is that britain did not lockdown quick enough and because it did not lockdown quick enough, the death rate was higher and therefore those restrictions had to stay harsher and for longer than it might have done had the lockdown happened earlier. that is what dominic cummings was getting at. we earlier. that is what dominic cummings was getting at. we see you need to net cummings was getting at. we see you need to get back _ cummings was getting at. we see you need to get back into _ cummings was getting at. we see you need to get back into the _ cummings was getting at. we see you need to get back into the enquiry - need to get back into the enquiry now because it has just resumed. the uk covid enquiry, let's step back in. there was already sustained transmission in the united kingdom stop on the 21st of february news emerged of a cluster of locally transmitted cases in lombardy in italy and the lockdown began there. you will recall it was in a number of municipalities. on the 23rd of february the dhse reported 13 cases in the united kingdom. the paperwork shows that the pace of the government tempo, the temple of work in government, declined notably between the 14th of february and the 24th of february, which coincidentally is half term. why was that? i coincidentally is half term. why was that? 4' ., , ., ., that? i think it was a combination of, as i that? i think it was a combination of. as i said _ that? i think it was a combination of, as i said earlier, _ that? i think it was a combination of, as i said earlier, the - that? i think it was a combination of, as i said earlier, the general. of, as i said earlier, the general perception of the senior people handling this in the cabinet office at the time, it was if this proved to be a big problem, and it still was and if, then it was seen as really quite additional problem and was not seen as an emergency crisis. secondly, as you remarked, i did not go on holiday but many of the senior people were on holiday during that time, including the pm.— people were on holiday during that time, including the pm. there is no cover between _ time, including the pm. there is no cover between 18th _ time, including the pm. there is no cover between 18th of _ time, including the pm. there is no cover between 18th of february - time, including the pm. there is no cover between 18th of february and j cover between 18th of february and the 26th of february, was there? i don't know. the 26th of february, was there? i don't know. there _ the 26th of february, was there? i don't know. there were _ the 26th of february, was there? i don't know. there were no - the 26th of february, was there? i j don't know. there were no cabinet meetinas don't know. there were no cabinet meetings during — don't know. there were no cabinet meetings during that _ don't know. there were no cabinet meetings during that time? - don't know. there were no cabinet meetings during that time? do - don't know. there were no cabinet| meetings during that time? do you recall? i meetings during that time? do you recall? ., �* meetings during that time? do you recall?_ there - meetings during that time? do you recall?_ there were . recall? i don't recall. there were no notes sent — recall? i don't recall. there were no notes sent to _ recall? i don't recall. there were no notes sent to the _ recall? i don't recall. there were no notes sent to the prime - recall? i don't recall. there were i no notes sent to the prime minister or e—mails between the 1a and the 24th of february? or e-mails between the 14 and the 24th of february?— 24th of february? that is more likel to 24th of february? that is more likely to be _ 24th of february? that is more likely to be a — 24th of february? that is more likely to be a gap _ 24th of february? that is more likely to be a gap in _ 24th of february? that is more likely to be a gap in paper- 24th of february? that is more | likely to be a gap in paper rather than reflecting reality. in likely to be a gap in paper rather than reflecting reality. in relation to coronavirus? _ than reflecting reality. in relation to coronavirus? i _ than reflecting reality. in relation to coronavirus? i don't _ than reflecting reality. in relation to coronavirus? i don't know. - than reflecting reality. in relation to coronavirus? i don't know. he| to coronavirus? i don't know. he went to cheveny _ to coronavirus? i don't know. he went to cheveny on _ to coronavirus? i don't know. he went to cheveny on the - to coronavirus? i don't know. he went to cheveny on the 14th - to coronavirus? i don't know. he went to cheveny on the 14th of l went to cheveny on the 14th of february and returned to downing street three times for work. his diary shows that there were a handful of meetings while he was in cheveny. but he received from his team in downing street absolutely nothing in relation to coronavirus between the 14th of february and the 24th of february. you were part of that team. why was he not kept in the loop in relation to the developing crisis?- the loop in relation to the developing crisis? the loop in relation to the develoin: crisis? ~ , ., developing crisis? well, partly for the reasons _ developing crisis? well, partly for the reasons i _ developing crisis? well, partly for the reasons i have _ developing crisis? well, partly for the reasons i have already - developing crisis? well, partly for the reasons i have already said. it was not seen as an imminent crisis in the cabinet office and by the system is responsible for dealing with crises. when he did briefly reappear for meetings, for example on the meltdown in the home office, imran and i did talk to him about coronavirus and we did try and get into his head that this was a growing problem that had not gone away. growing problem that had not gone awa . ., _ growing problem that had not gone awa. ., ., .,.'., away. you say there was a lack of understanding — away. you say there was a lack of understanding that _ away. you say there was a lack of understanding that there - away. you say there was a lack of understanding that there was - away. you say there was a lack of understanding that there was a i understanding that there was a crisis. you had received text messages or information yourself that the virus was probably out of control. cobra had been reporting that there was now clear evidence of sustained transmission outside china. you knew and number ten new that the virus had exploded in italy will stop and you knew there were cases already in the united kingdom. how can it possibly have been thought that there was no crisis? this thought that there was no crisis? as i thought that there was no crisis? is i said, when the prime minister went away on holiday after the reshuffle rant about the 13th or 14th, the 30s and the 14th of february looked very different to the 28th of february, so things evolved a lot over that period of time. yourfundamental point is obviously correct, that there was indeed a massive crisis, it was indeed pretty insane that so many of the senior people were away on holiday at that time. but it is also important to realise that it is not like the contingencies, the secretariat or the national security council or any of the organisation in charge of this work beating the drum and saying we have got to get the pm back, this is a massive crisis. in fact, the pm back, this is a massive crisis. infact, quite the pm back, this is a massive crisis. in fact, quite the opposite, as patrick vallance and others have pointed out, the nsc and other things were treating it like the rest of whitehall was, like maybe this will be a big problem, but it will be in may orjune. iii it this will be a big problem, but it will be in may orjune.— will be in may orjune. if it was insane as _ will be in may orjune. if it was insane as you _ will be in may orjune. if it was insane as you have _ will be in may orjune. if it was insane as you have described l will be in may orjune. if it was| insane as you have described it will be in may orjune. if it was - insane as you have described it for them to be away on holiday, whatever everybody was doing, and for there to be a complete absence of an administrative push in relation to coronavirus during the 10—day period, why were you not buying on metaphorically the door of cheveny saying, you have got to come back, we have a crisis, this virus is about to overrun us? i we have a crisis, this virus is about to overrun us?- we have a crisis, this virus is about to overrun us? i was talking to all sorts — about to overrun us? i was talking to all sorts of _ about to overrun us? i was talking to all sorts of people _ about to overrun us? i was talking to all sorts of people in _ about to overrun us? i was talking to all sorts of people in that - to all sorts of people in that period and i was not on holiday and i was pushing and talking to patrick and other people but i did not regard, and neither did other people, we did not think that asking the pm to come back and talk to cobra or whitehall in general at that point would have been productive. in fact, that point would have been productive. infact, i that point would have been productive. in fact, i thought it would have been counter—productive because i thought he would have said to everybody what he thought at the time, which was this is another swine flu, it is nothing will happen, blah, blah, getting tucked into a slump. i thought if he came back from cheveny and said that to cobra or any other part of the government it would be counter—productive rather than helpful. 50 counter-productive rather than helful. ., helpful. 50 are you saying you did actively consider _ helpful. 50 are you saying you did actively consider the _ helpful. 50 are you saying you did actively consider the possibility i helpful. 50 are you saying you did actively consider the possibility of asking him to come back and talk to cobra and white?— cobra and white? yes, it was discussed _ cobra and white? yes, it was discussed while _ cobra and white? yes, it was discussed while he _ cobra and white? yes, it was discussed while he was - cobra and white? yes, it wasj discussed while he was away. cobra and white? yes, it was - discussed while he was away. white man with whom? i discussed it with imran and others in number ten. is imran and others in number ten. is the only note of that debate, mister cummings? i the only note of that debate, mister cumminrs? ., �* ~ ., the only note of that debate, mister cummings?_ are - the only note of that debate, mister cummings?_ are you i cummings? i don't know. are you surrised cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to _ cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to hear _ cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to hear there _ cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to hear there is - cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to hear there is no - cummings? i don't know. are you surprised to hear there is no note | surprised to hear there is no note as far as we can tell about asking the prime minister to come back and take charge of the crisis? tile. the prime minister to come back and take charge of the crisis?— take charge of the crisis? no, it was not surprising _ take charge of the crisis? no, it was not surprising because - take charge of the crisis? no, it| was not surprising because there were conversations and people were sitting next to each other at work. you are not averse to sending whatsapps and tx 24 hours a day, mister cummings. tile. whatsapps and tx 24 hours a day, mister cummings.— whatsapps and tx 24 hours a day, mister cummings. no, i was sitting riaht next mister cummings. no, i was sitting right next to _ mister cummings. no, i was sitting right next to martin _ mister cummings. no, i was sitting right next to martin and _ mister cummings. no, i was sitting right next to martin and imran, - mister cummings. no, i was sitting right next to martin and imran, i i right next to martin and imran, i didn't have to, these were conversations we had around the office at that time.— office at that time. 236, 371, whatsapp — office at that time. 236, 371, whatsapp messages, - office at that time. 236, 371, | whatsapp messages, number office at that time. 236, 371, - whatsapp messages, number ten action, page 47. on the 27th of february after his return from cheveney, misterjohnson said, in response to a suggestion from lee ken, i think monday coronavirus cobra meeting with the prime minister, it is very important to show great. dominic cummings, yes, we should pencil in an interview early next week, we have got to sort things out, but monday must be a new level and misterjohnson says at the end of this particular thread, not sure if it can wait until monday. there is no reference there to the possibility that he had been asked to come back earlier or they should be a cobra whilst he was in cheveney, is there?- be a cobra whilst he was in cheveney, is there? tile. and he asked cheveney, is there? no. and he asked or cheveney, is there? i157. and he asked or said, i am cheveney, is there? i157. and he asked or said, lam not cheveney, is there? i157. and he asked or said, i am not convinced we are showing grip, we need to have a cobra meeting, iam not sure showing grip, we need to have a cobra meeting, i am not sure it can wait until monday. there have been four cobra meetings already? yeah, i don't know how many there had been. you know there had been four or five, but he had not shown any inclination to take a grip by chairing a cobra himself? correct. to be fair to _ chairing a cobra himself? correct. to be fair to him _ chairing a cobra himself? correct. to be fair to him nor _ chairing a cobra himself? correct. to be fair to him nor was - chairing a cobra himself? correct. to be fair to him nor was the - chairing a cobra himself? correct. i to be fair to him nor was the system generally pushing him too. xyour generally pushing him too. your evidence is _ generally pushing him too. your evidence is you _ generally pushing him too. your evidence is you might _ generally pushing him too. your evidence is you might not - generally pushing him too. your evidence is you might not have wanted him to chair a cobra in anyway because you are fearful of what he might say.— anyway because you are fearful of what he might say. correct, but that was unofficial— what he might say. correct, but that was unofficial conversations, - what he might say. correct, but that was unofficial conversations, but. what he might say. correct, but that was unofficial conversations, but my point was the official system was not pushing him to do a cobra meeting as far as i recall. but we were also trying not to push the official system to do because we were fearful it would be counter—productive. so were fearful it would be counter-productive. were fearful it would be counter-reductive. , ., counter-productive. so you were in art counter-productive. so you were in part responsible — counter-productive. so you were in part responsible for _ counter-productive. so you were in part responsible for him _ counter-productive. so you were in part responsible for him not - counter-productive. so you were in part responsible for him not havingj part responsible for him not having chaired cobra? that part responsible for him not having chaired cobra?— chaired cobra? that is an interpretation _ chaired cobra? that is an interpretation to - chaired cobra? that is an interpretation to put - chaired cobra? that is an interpretation to put on l chaired cobra? that is an l interpretation to put on it. chaired cobra? that is an - interpretation to put on it. you didn't want _ interpretation to put on it. you didn't want him _ interpretation to put on it. you didn't want him to, _ interpretation to put on it. you didn't want him to, you are fearful what he might do if he was allowed to chair cobra? the what he might do if he was allowed to chair cobra?— what he might do if he was allowed to chair cobra? the system was not ”ushin to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him — to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him too — to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him too and _ to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him too and i _ to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him too and i didn't - to chair cobra? the system was not pushing him too and i didn't think. pushing him too and i didn't think it was wise to force the system to change his mind, i thought it would be counter—productive. {lin change his mind, i thought it would be counter-productive.— change his mind, i thought it would be counter-productive. on page 48, one further— be counter-productive. on page 48, one further page _ be counter-productive. on page 48, one further page on, _ be counter-productive. on page 48, one further page on, please. - be counter-productive. on page 48, one further page on, please. you i one further page on, please. you return to your usual theme of mister hancock, he is a know on cons and he has totally failed the corona team. have a meeting this afternoon to sort it out misterjohnson asked for a conference call at five. at the bottom of the page two you are watching bbc news, we apologise for some of the language in these communications. we are not able to control them and some of them contain horse language. in there had been, it was evident that there was no means controlling the spread of the virus once it had reached the united kingdom, it was plain that there was sustained community transmission, from the number of cases that the dhc were reporting by the end of february. why was the prime minister left in a position in which only now, he was saying there is nothing i won't do to try and get a grip on this crisis? ~ ~ ., ., ., , crisis? well, i thinki have already exlained crisis? well, i thinki have already explained a _ crisis? well, i thinki have already explained a few, _ crisis? well, i thinki have already explained a few, the _ crisis? well, i think i have already| explained a few, the fundamentals crisis? well, i think i have already . explained a few, the fundamentals of this, is system didn't regard it as a crisis while he was on ho day, the system didn't push him to come back, however in the last week of february, every thing started to move dramatically differently. as you referred to, everything kind of kicked off in northern italy, and crucial in terms of the pm. the media suddenly were all over this, and it was suddenly dominating, and that meant that whitehall in general, then, shifted. we in number ten were starting to realise all things were problematic, for example phe, the agency in charge of nominally in charge of dealing with this had come to number ten and to me, asking for help with the communications plan for coronavirus,

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