listeners from zero to one, listening to no podcast, to listening to at least one podcast. and that will get more listeners spending more time with audio spoken audio in their ears. i think spotify has the opportunity to use its landscape, to use its apps, to use all of the infrastructure that it has to bring more potential listeners into the fold. i think the key is that daniel ek has sort of implied that he sees spotify's podcasting mission as mature now, that it should be evidencing its successes now. and i think that's the whole industry, which is always treated as kind of nascent, on the verge of being the next big thing. it is a mature industry now. it mayjust simply not be the biggest thing in the world. but why is it not making money for them? they're the biggest music streamer in the world. they've got, as you've been describing, a mature podcast offering — some people listening might be thinking, well, if they're not making money, who can? it's100% not a podcast problem. this is a spotify problem. spotify is not making money. it has never made money.