For dateline london. Hello. Welcome to dateline london. Imjane hello. Welcome to dateline london. Im jane hill. This week we are discussing the fallout from the british General Election. Political turmoil heightened by a man made tragedy that hit london this week and of course, with brexit talks about to begin. Well be looking at rot tests in russia, which the protests in russia, which have put hundreds of people in prison. Ned tempko is with me, the italian film maker and broadcaster. Stephanie bolson. And the russianjournalist. And welcome to you all. The hello and welcome to you all. The british Prime Minister lost her overall majority in the General Election and is having to do a deal with mps from Northern Ireland to stay in downing street. Theresa may was criticised during the Election Campaignfor was criticised during the Election Campaign for not getting out and meeting real people and within a week, that criticism has resurfaced because of the government response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, an entire residential tower block in london destroyed by fire in one night. When theresa may first visited the scene, she spoke to members of the Emergency Services but not to local residents. All of this coming just before those brexit talks finally are going to get under way. So, lets discuss the state of britain, of british politics. Lets start with you ned this morning. Theresa may specifically first of all, can she, willshe theresa may specifically first of all, can she, will she survive all of this . If wed be having this conversation a couple of days ago, i would have said two years, probably yes, not least because her main strength is that anybody who wants herjob within the Conservative Party would have to have his or her head examined to want the job under these circumstances. Youre going into brexit negotiations which are going to be at least difficult and possibly more than difficult. So theres a great theres a communal Self Interest among the tories of keeping her there for a while. Whats changed, azur you say keeping her there for a while. Whats changed, azur you say is as you say, the utter Tone Deaf Nature of her response to this fire. Because it drew on a lot of the she attracted during the criticism she attracted during the Election Campaign. Its utterly unpredictable. If she lasts lets say a week, i still give her two yea rs. Say a week, i still give her two years. But its all very fluid now. It reminds me a little bit of the atmosphere in the final days of maggie thatcher, after the Poll Tax Riots and politics is about a narrative. 0nce riots and politics is about a narrative. Once your narrative as a leader or politician changes, thats a very difficult force to escape. More than anything, her narrative was im strong and stable and instead she is showing to the people of britain that shes not strong, shes not stable and shes not even compassionate. Shes enabled to meet the people who have lived a tragedy and hug them like Jeremy Corbyn did. Not only has she lost her narrative shes unable to provide another one. They might not have wanted hugging, but people clearly want answers and here today, still people clearly feel in that part of london that the a nswe is feel in that part of london that the answers havent been given. Whats your view . The overall feeling these daysin your view . The overall feeling these days in london is that the government is losing control of too many things. So on monday, the brexit talks are starting. We still have no idea and in brussels they have no idea and in brussels they have no idea what the British Government is actually wanting to achieve in those negotiations. Which is fine because the government doesnt have any idea either, it would appear. Because of the election, everything has changed. Everything is up in the air now. Is it maybe a more softer brexit . Will the very euro sceptic tories in the Parliament Still dominate the talks . At the same time, even the most you might think the easiest things go wrong, which is show compassion. I was there on i spent the last three days near the tower, and i was there on thursday morning when she arrived and i told the people round there, so the Prime Minister was here and they said, where was she . We didnt see her. Why didnt she come to see us. She went again on friday to try to do it better and it completely went wrong. Her argument being that she met firefighters, she met members of the Emergency Services met members of the Emergency Services its the easiest thing for such professional people in downing street in terms of pr to stage a visit. Whats your reading of that . Because the criticism throughout the Election Campaign and then this by all accounts very Strong Performance in front of her own party, we call it the 1922 committee, The Committee Of Backbench Conservative Mps and people were coming out of that meeting, mps coming out saying, my goodness, if shed behaved that well during the Election Campaign, we wouldnt be in this position. They we re wouldnt be in this position. They were bolstered by that. There were no lessons learned. She can control that situation. But the situation with people being devastated and helpless and hopeless and waiting for news for days and nights in the heat outside, being homeless, thats a situation that she cannot control and thats why i guess she couldnt handle it. Thats why she didnt go. She was scared. I dont agree at all with the grenfell effect of the g re nfell tower with the grenfell effect of the Grenfell Tower fire on her position. U nfortu nately, Grenfell Tower fire on her position. Unfortunately, her weakness was in dealing with Terrorist Attacks. Because she was a former home secretary. She was actually in charge of dealing with terrorism. For six years. Now, the russians we re for six years. Now, the russians were warning the west and britain as well, for many years, after the chechen conflict started the dangers of islamic terrorism spreading quickly. Nobody paid any attention. Russia was criticised i dealing russia was criticised by dealing with this threat, right. So this problem basically swept into the west. Instead of dealing, you know with dealing with uniting with russia dealing with this threat, because russia was dealing with the threat in the sense that it was banning the ngos that are helping terrorist are helping finance terrorist activity. They were banning charities, which here prosper. Look at them. Theyre collecting money on some, disillusioned people and some, from disillusioned people and then fund them into organisations like the muslim brotherhood. Specifically in the uk, you think . Everywhere across the west now. Its a major issue. What we see there is that she did not respond and the police well in the pr sense to this terrorism. Why . Because for example in manchester, a devastating attack, children are blown up. What. We children are blown up. What do we have the cop who runs everything in manchester say the next day we will not tolerate hate crimes. Listen, its a fair point, but not at that time. You do not say things like that. This is offensive. But in terms of the election, this unexpected General Election theresa may and the conservatives came out with, a reduced majority, not expected at the gibbing. At the expected at the gibbingg it was to do with beginning. It was to do with terrorism. Terrorism was a major issue for the west now. Because the has not been dealing with it. West has not been dealing with it. Basically you are saying that the we st basically you are saying that the west is doing it the putin way and they will tackle terrorism, i you they will tackle terrorism, are you serious . I i serious about adopting serious . I am serious about adopting some of the strategies you just seme of the Strategies Yeujeet Seme of the Strategies Yeujest major conflict between western had a major conflict between western allies, arab countries that have turned against qatar for terrorism l the west as supporting terrorism in the west as well. This shows to us that the western do not have a western governments do not have a National Security policy which works. What theyre doing National Security policy which works. What theyre doing italy has not had one single terror attack. Italy is one country. They are applying just different attitude to security which is probably italy is an exception. No its not italy is an among exception. Because theyre doing an exception. Because theyre doing the right thing. Explain why you feel you think italy has managed that. I dont feel, its a fact that italy is the only major european country which has not suffered a terror attack. There are theories why this is happening and one of them is that because italy has been through the 705 and 805 and dealing with terrorism in a very kind of con5tant, daily way, they have found a way of controlling the territory, which means that possible 5u5pect5 are identified and removed and even deported even before they start becoming radicali5ed, which is different to france and britain, where they tend to have a kind of surveillance. You cannot survey people like that. Because there are too many. You need to have something much more preventive, more at the start of the process of radicalisation. Terrified of touching them here in britain. That is the problem. Can i intervene quickly . Please. Just to say, in defence of the British Security forces and the american Security Forces, its always difficult in a democracy under the rule of law to control terrorism. The miraculous thing and ive covered this for a long time, is not how many major Terrorist Attacks there have been since 9 11, but how few. I think the Security Forces dont get everything right, but its not i mean this portrait of utter hapless inability to deal with terrorism is not real. We will continue to debate on this programme the reasons why the conservatives have that reduced majority. Terrorism may be a factor. We are where we are, however, as politicians are fond of saying, and we are a matter of days away depending when youre watching this programme, of those brexit talks finally getting under way. Your reading of this, stephanie . Interestingly, i talk to some people yesterday in brussels, senior officials and the mood in brussels is very conciliatory. Because the first thing thats on the agenda is the difficult question of eu citizens rights. What is going to happen with the 3. 5 million european citizens currently living in the uk and more than a million living on the continent who is living on the. Continent;udm ls to guarantee their rights . Going to guarantee their rights . From the european perspective it has to be the European Court ofjustice. From mrs mays perspective this is non negotiable. I havent heard anybody in brussels saying this is a red line. I think what they are saying is we need to get this done now, just sit down and lets negotiate. There is an urgency in this that there needs to be a settle m e nt this that there needs to be a settlement on the money, on the people as soon as possible, because we are already in a state in europe, theres a lot of problems, we are already in a state in europe, theres a | in of problems, we are already in a state in europe, theres a | in the roblems, we are already in a state in europe, theres a | in the uk, ems, we are already in a state in europe, theres a | in the uk, that is very especially in the uk, that is very dangerous. The great political news of this week was that both france and germany have said something very important. Theyve said the door is open if you want to do a kind of reflection, reversal, the door is open. This is the key, i think, reflection, reversal, the door is open. This is the key, ithink, the key news of this week. All talk at once if there is a possibility of rethinking again, it has to be done before the end of the two years process. The window of opportunity is very, very small. Because once you have dismantled everything, there is no way that you can re open it. So there is a thinking that says ok, it. So there is a thinking that says 0k, britain is in chaos. The situation is getting really, really serious on the economic front because the economy has the because the economy has become the slowest growing economy in europe. Inflation is rising. Prices are rising. Wages are going down. Investment is going away. So someone is starting to say investment is going away. So someone is starting to say youre describing france by the way, word for word, this describing france by the way, word for word, this is describing france by the way, word for word, this is france, demolished. No, france is the most successful political at successful Political Landscape at the moment. Lets not confuse that. Economically its a disaster, its a melt down. Its Baranauing Rupt politically. They have a Strong Politically. They have a Strong Political bankrupt politically. In bring we get a hung parliament, we dont have a majority. We have a leader who is angering the entire country. In france they have a nobody as president. Just finish your point. My point is that there isa your point. My point is that there is a lot of thinking in europe that we might get very faster to a point in which britain should show that pragmatism sometimes can trump pride. But meaning, you mean not going ahead with leaving the eu . People inside the eu have always wa nted People Inside The Eu have always wanted that. Doesnt mean theyre going to get it. You have to show, i mean, people are expecting britain to show a realism. It might be that two years down the line, when the deal is on the table and it is clear that it deal is on the table and it is clear thatitis deal is on the table and it is clear that it is a disastrous deal because there is no way of Making Brexit a success, there is no way of Making Brexit a success, lets remind this. If the deal is really disastrous and in the meantime the Economy Of Britain has crashed, is it wise and pragmatic to say to the people, do we really want to do this . I think youre absolutely right. I think its politically probably impossible to reverse brexit. But i think a fudge for the first time becomes possible. It depends how these two years of talks go. 0ne it depends how these two years of talks go. One of the interesting things with respect, i the polling things with respect, all the polling done about the election so far doesnt suggest this was about terrorism. It suggests it was about the disproportionate participation of young people, including young people who were angry and a little bit remorseful about the brexit vote. So the landscape, the economy is shifting, but also the Political Landscape has shifted a bit. But you are living in la la land. Britain is one of the strongest economies in the eu. Italy is nearly bankrupt. France is in a melt down. Portugal non existent. France is in a melt down. Portugal nonexistent. Thank for russia. Nonexistent. Thank god for russia. Greece. How can we sit here with great faces and talk about britain in melt down supported by 80 billion of newly made money every month. It would go down at once. The reason why theresa may is not able to start the process properly, she doesnt wa nt the process properly, she doesnt want to. The people feel that shes relu cta nt. Want to. The people feel that shes reluctant. The only way to deal with the eu is to walk away and say if you dont go with our terms, we are walking away and you are finished. Coo the eu is desperate for britain to stay on. Who do you talk to in the eu that tells you they are desperate. Give me one name . Every s signal they make, oh, desperate. Give me one name . Every s signalthey make, oh, please desperate. Give me one name . Every s signal they make, oh, please come back. Were saying effectively hurry up back. Were saying effectively hurry up and get on with it. The eu is crumbling, financially its finished. The eu is stronger than it was a few months ago. Britain is not growing. They are pumping 80 million every month into the markets. If it stops the quantitative easing, it is finished. Dont take us down that route. A thought, as we approach the beginning of these talks, one way or another, whatever we think everybody thinks about them, you talked about chaos on thames, what do you pick up on in terms of if we have a Leadership Election later on this year, if the conservative Party Changes its leader, ie if we have a new british Prime Minister does that play into this . What do people in europe say about this . In europe, ican in europe say about this . In europe, i can only spoke for people in germany, of course, they see its a very, very problematic situation politically. A5 very, very problematic situation politically. As you said, Reversing Brexit is very politically Reversing Brexit is very difficult because both big parties, the tory party and the labour party have said we want brexit. Brexit has to be implemented because its the will of the people and this is democracy. So within the next month, turning around and saying, actually, yeah, it is democracy, but were not going to do it is politically very, very difficultjob to going to do it is politically very, very difficult job to do. So we approach the coming week, the beginning of the talks, youre saying you think the first stage might not be so bad because you touched on the issue of citizens rights. Yeah. There after it gets tricky. And the eu is clear, they have a clear guidelines and they are unified on this. First the departure and then the future framework. First they have to find an agreement on eu citizens rights, the money and the Northern Irish border. All of these three issues are very, very sensitive and they have only a couple of months to sort them out. Only then they will Start Talking about free trade. There has to be a very big political will from both sides to compromise. Otherwise its going to fail. And complicated as you say by the fact that there really isnt a settled view within a very vulnerable British Government. No, there isnt. At the same time, they have put out a lot of red lines. They dont have really a strong view, but they have a lot of red lines. Red lines that was posseted on her land slide victory and having a strong hand. So their position has changed. Thats true, yeah. See what awaits us in the coming weeks. Thank you very much on that. Lets turn our attention to those Continuing Anticorru Ption demonstrations across russia this week. Hundreds of people have been put in prison in various cities. President putin seems determined to stamp out protests. The calls for him to stand down and for an end to what many see as blatant corruption by those in authority continue. What exactly is going on in your country . Well, the protests are against corruption and corruption is an issue in russia. Butch its an issue everywhere a cross issue in russia. Butch its an issue everywhere across the world. I mean in india, its an issue. In china and everywhere else. The problem is here of course is that there ises a perception that the man who was detained is some sort of a leader of an opposition, which is not really an opposition, which is not really an opposition. Its a tiny gioup an opposition, which is not really an opposition. Its a tiny group of people. The reason why he was detained by the way, that was not mentioned here, is that what they did, they were given an official permission to stage a domo in a specific area in moscow. He was detained during a protest in moscow . No, before the protest. Practically hours before the demo he announced to his supporters, lets hijack celebration of russia day smack outside the kremlin. What happened these people infiltrated this Celebration Day party, which was massive in the centre of moscow, you know, children with their parents and grandfathers and grandmothers we re and grandfathers and grandmothers were celebrating this party. Suddenly, these people appear in between them and started shouting down with putin. Down with corruption. The police had to interfere because it was turning into chaos. The interesting thing is, a very respected member of the opposition denounced this and denounced nevalny and said you cant do this and hijack the peaceful manifestations with violent thugs and put in danger all these people. He said. Hes a critic of putin by the way. We have seen protests all over the country. They were tiny of course. And they pose no danger to the regime. Hundreds are in prison. They are out already. Tiny numbers we re they are out already. Tiny numbers were kept for a day or two. Under what charges . There was attacks on police and the usual stuff like here when the students rioted here, there was a problem and they put 200 in prison. They were young protesters. Can you see who they were, they were not thugs. They were thugs. You should look at them. Some of them we re should look at them. Some of them were 17. Theyve been all their life under putin. 17 years in power. These kids were 17 and they were saying enough. In france they elected a nobody, nobody knew who he is and they didnt allow elected a nobody, nobody knew who he is and they didnt allow weve covered that ground. But chair, they didnt allow but compare. They didnt allow but compare. They didnt allow but compare. They didnt allow any protests in france because of a state of emergency. Which you were in favour of, you wa nt which you were in favour of, you want tougher anti terror. Anti terror by the way is the major point to the people of russia. He criticises the west for allowing this flood of people with alien cultures. Its his words, not mine. To come back to the word hijack for a second to come back to the word hijack for a second this is an important thing. You know what he said about muslim immigrants coming into russia we muslim immigrants coming into russia we all know this muslim immigrants coming into russia we all know this already. Muslim immigrants coming into russia we all know this already. Lets hear from we all know this already. Lets hearfrom ned. We all know this already. Lets hear from ned. No, no. Hes not in a position hear from ned. No, no. Hes not in a position hes a Former Moscow correspondent. You lived in the soviet union. How do you know russia . Russia soviet union. How do you know russia . Russia is soviet union. How do you know russia . Russia is different now. |j know luckily putin had nothing to do with the soviet union. I let the re cord with the soviet union. I let the record show not with the kgb either. One of the wonderful things about discussions like this is how familiar it is to living in the soviet union for three years, because i willjust ask a respectful question, do you think one reason for the size, you say these are small demonstrations, might be because theres a proven record and forget this particular demonstration, that if you show public opposition to Vladimir Putin you are almost certain to get arrested. You are likely to suffer economically. You may even lose your life. Thats probably a disincentive to public opposition, one would have thought. Its a cliche that you as a former correspondent in the soviet union would say on and on and on. Times have changed completely in russia. There is an opposition in the newspapers. There are oligarchs sent to prison. You show me a Billionaire Banker in america that was sent to prison . Why did the papers report on russian people very close to putin involved in corruption, why is that paper, the editor in chief was fired and now its been bought by a Russian Oligarch . So what. Thats what im saying. If youre critical you wont la st very saying. If youre critical you wont last very long in russia. What are you telling me . Exactly what youre saying. The press in every country does what it is told. Maybe its news for you, but thats how it is. Again in la la land. If you have an owner like murdoch, you do what he tells you. There is a slight difference in the Freedom Of The Press in britain and in russia. Russia is a huge country. You cant hold it together with a Pussy Footing president. Its an enormous country. There are attacks from all the sides. What does all of this mean for next year, for putin . predict putin will win. Laughter one way or another. No, its interesting, on the one hand you say nevalny is a nobody. For a nobody the russian authorities and putin personally sure do try awfully hard, for instance, to prevent him from standing against putin at next years election. And if hes such an irrelevancy, who cares . But you are forgetting one thing, he suits the kremlin, because he is keeping all those oligarchs and corrupt officials on their toes. You show me one person in america who would be allowed to show a film about the corrupt minister, senator, accuse him of corruption. Only one . No, no, you have no one. Not single one. Your payerers quiet. Youre kidding. Youre saying things that are not really important. Whatever. Putin will obviously win the election, 0k. 9 11, i documentary about bush, when 9 11, a documentary about bush, when he was in power but any way, this is very entertaining. It should be entertaining, its saturday. When someone entertaining, its saturday. When someone said the Freedom Of The Press in russia is the same as in britain, thats very, very funny. Thats so outrageous you should just laugh it. In britain they dont kill a journalist. In russia they do. You dont see ministers being there as well. We have to leave it on that note. For this week, as well. We have to leave it on that note. Forthis week, certainly as well. We have to leave it on that note. For this week, certainly not for the last time. Thank you, all of you. Join us for the last time. Thank you, all of you. Join us again for the last time. Thank you, all of you. Join us again next week if you possibly can. Thanks for being with us possibly can. Thanks for being with us today. Bye bye. S the hot, sunny weather thats been with many of us today is going to stick around, particularly in the south, for a few days yet. Decent weather for a trip to the beach, where it has been a bit cooler, with sea where it has been a bit cooler, with sea breezes close to the coast. And another contrast on the picture, shows up clearly really, this band of cloud up to the nest which has been delivering patchy rain across the north west of scotland. This is a Weather Front which will make little Progress South during the night. For the vast majority its dry with clear spells, maybe the odd patch of low cloud for western coastal areas. Despite clear spells, temperatures in norwich and london no lower than 19 degrees. That sets us no lower than 19 degrees. That sets us upfora no lower than 19 degrees. That sets us up for a hot day tomorrow, particularly across england and wales, with sunshine. Here we see temperatures to 31, maybe 32. Cloud for Northern Ireland and scotland. Rain in the far north west. Here its that bit cooler. It will be Northern Areas that keep the cooler weather through monday and tuesday. Further south, it stays hot, temperatures still around 30. This is bbc news. The headlines at five. Police say a total of 58 people are dead or missing and presumed dead in the grenfell fire, and they appeal for more information from the public. The current number of fatalities is at least 30. The figure of 58 are those that are missing and that i have to assume are dead. Theresa may meets victims and residents affected by the disaster at downing street, as she tries to respond to growing public anger. The queen says its difficult to escape a very sombre National Mood following tragedies in london and manchester. She has led a minutes silence at the start of events to mark her official birthday. And in other news the judge in the bill cosby sex
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