Over the vexed question of trans rights. The Gender Recognition Reform Scotland Bill is passed. Shame on you with the Prime Minister pondering blocking a controversial new scottish law. If a new law is passed that does impact the rest of the united kingdom, it is important that the uk government receives advice on that before deciding what to do, if anything. But we have one big question this morning is keir starmer ready for the job . So hes here with us live this morning. Sir keir starmer, who wants to be your Prime Minister. Fed up of the Train Strikes . Mark harper, the transport secretary, whose job is to get things running, is here too. And with me at the desk, the hero villain of succession, the Emmy Award Winning actor brian cox. The former minister, now head of the women and Equalities Committee at westminster, caroline nokes. And economist and banker, the boss of natwest, sir howard davies. Good morning and thank you for watching. For the first sunday in a while, prince harry is not dominating the front pages of the sunday papers. Lets ta ke lets take a look at what is going on. The Telegraphs Blushes With A Story from keir starmer about his bold message, he says, to shake up the nhs. The front of the observer reports on a cabinet split on how to pay nhs staff but to sort out the strikes. The mirror and the sun report on the terrible shooting yesterday. And borisjohnson is on the sunday times with a mysterious £800,000 Lending Facility that apparently was at his beck and call when he was in number ten, maybe we will chat about that in a moment. But first of all, sir howard, some good news unusually, there was growth in the economy in november, should we be relieved . H0 growth in the economy in november, should we be relieved . Should we be relieved . No first of all, note should we be relieved . No first of all. Note that should we be relieved . No first of all, note that these should we be relieved . No first of all, note that these figures should we be relieved . No first of all, note that these figures get all, note that these figures get revised all, note that these figures get revised~ they all, note that these figures get revised. They could all, note that these figures get revised. They could get all, note that these figures geti revised. They could get revised all, note that these figures get. Revised. They could get revised up or down, revised. They could get revised up or down, but revised. They could get revised up or down, but these revised. They could get revised up or down, but these are revised. They could get revised up or down, but these are the revised. They could get revised up or down, but these are the first i or down, but these are the first releases or down, but these are the first releases of or down, but these are the first releases of quite or down, but these are the first releases of quite unreliable or down, but these are the first l releases of quite unreliable data, and i releases of quite unreliable data, and i think releases of quite unreliable data, and i think what releases of quite unreliable data, and i think what most releases of quite unreliable data, and i think what most figures releases of quite unreliable data, and i think what most figures telli and i think what most figures tell us is and i think what most figures tell us is that and i think what most figures tell us is that the and i think what most figures tell us is that the economy and i think what most figures tell us is that the economy is and i think what most figures tell us is that the economy is pretty. Us is that the economy is pretty fiat us is that the economy is pretty flat i us is that the economy is pretty fiat idont us is that the economy is pretty flat. I dont feel us is that the economy is pretty flat. I dont feel that us is that the economy is pretty flat. I dont feel that there us is that the economy is pretty flat. I dont feel that there is i us is that the economy is pretty flat. I dont feel that there is al flat. I dont feel that there is a deep flat. Idont feel that there is a deep recession flat. Idont feel that there is a deep recession on flat. I dont feel that there is a deep recession on the flat. I dont feel that there is a deep recession on the way, i flat. I dont feel that there is a i deep recession on the way, that flat. I dont feel that there is a deep recession on the way, that is not what deep recession on the way, that is not what we deep recession on the way, that is not what we see deep recession on the way, that is not what we see in deep recession on the way, that is not what we see in our deep recession on the way, that is not what we see in our numbers. Deep recession on the way, that isi not what we see in our numbers for spending not what we see in our numbers for spending or not what we see in our numbers for spending or cornpany not what we see in our numbers for spending or Company Borrowing not what we see in our numbers for spending or Company Borrowing etl spending or Company Borrowing et cetera. Spending or Company Borrowing et cetera. But spending or Company Borrowing et cetera. But on spending or Company Borrowing et cetera, but on the spending or Company Borrowing et cetera, but on the other spending or Company Borrowing et cetera, but on the other hand cetera, but on the other hand business cetera, but on the other hand Business Confidence cetera, but on the other hand Business Confidence is cetera, but on the other hand Business Confidence is weak, | Business Confidence is weak, consumers Business Confidence is weak, consumers are Business Confidence is weak, consumers are carrying Business Confidence is weak, consumers are carrying on i Business Confidence is weak, consumers are carrying on spending, so i consumers are carrying on spending, so i think consumers are carrying on spending, so i think the consumers are carrying on spending, so i think the simplest consumers are carrying on spending, so i think the simplest Thing Consumers are carrying on spending, so i think the simplest thing to so i think the simplest thing to think so i think the simplest thing to think about so i think the simplest thing to think about the so i think the simplest thing to think about the economy so i think the simplest thing to think about the economy is so i think the simplest thing to think about the economy is it i so i think the simplest thing to| think about the economy is it is fiatiining think about the economy is it is fiatiining at think about the economy is it is flatlining at present. Think about the economy is it is flatlining at present. Interesting, because a lot flatlining at present. Interesting, because a lot of flatlining at present. Interesting, because a lot of the flatlining at present. Interesting, because a lot of the political because a lot of the political conversation has been about terrible, grim times, and you are talking about flat, weak, mediocre, but not dreadful. fine talking about flat, weak, mediocre, but not dreadful. But not dreadful. One thing people are forgetting but not dreadful. One thing people are forgetting is but not dreadful. One thing people are forgetting is that but not dreadful. One thing people are forgetting is that households i are forgetting is that households saved are forgetting is that households saved a are forgetting is that households saved a lot are forgetting is that households saved a lot of are forgetting is that households saved a lot of money are forgetting is that households saved a lot of money in are forgetting is that households saved a lot of money in the are forgetting is that households| saved a lot of money in the covid period saved a lot of money in the covid period most saved a lot of money in the covid period. Most people saved a lot of money in the covid period. Most people were saved a lot of money in the covid period. Most people were still. Saved a lot of money in the covid period. Most people were still in| period. Most people were still in work period. Most people were still in work but period. Most people were still in work but not period. Most people were still in work but not allowed period. Most people were still in work but not allowed to period. Most people were still in work but not allowed to spend, i period. Most people were still in. Work but not allowed to spend, so what work but not allowed to spend, so what we work but not allowed to spend, so what we see work but not allowed to spend, so what we see in work but not allowed to spend, so what we see in their work but not allowed to spend, so what we see in their bank work but not allowed to spend, sol what we see in their Bank Accounts is that what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there is what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there is still what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there is still quite what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there is still quite a what we see in their Bank Accounts is that there is still quite a lot is that there is still quite a lot of savings. Is that there is still quite a lot of savings, people is that there is still quite a lot of savings, people have is that there is still quite a lot of savings, people have got. Is that there is still quite a lot of savings, people have got a| of savings, people have got a cushion, of savings, people have got a cushion, and of savings, people have got a cushion, and so of savings, people have got a cushion, and so they of savings, people have got a cushion, and so they can of savings, people have got a| cushion, and so they can carry of savings, people have got a cushion, and so they can carry on with cushion, and so they can carry on with their cushion, and so they can carry on with their savings cushion, and so they can carry on with their savings for cushion, and so they can carry on with their savings for the cushion, and so they can carry on i with their savings for the moment. That causes with their savings for the moment. That causes me with their savings for the moment. That causes me to with their savings for the moment. That causes me to think with their savings for the moment. That causes me to think that with their savings for the moment. That causes me to think that they. That causes me to think that they could that causes me to think that they could he that causes me to think that they could be trouble that causes me to think that they could be trouble ahead, that causes me to think that they could be trouble ahead, when that causes me to think that they could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but for could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but for the could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but for the moment could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but for the moment i could be trouble ahead, when savings run out, but for the moment i think. Run out, but for the moment i think peopie run out, but for the moment i think peopie are run out, but for the moment i think peopie are able run out, but for the moment i think people are able to run out, but for the moment i think people are able to sustain run out, but for the moment i thinkl people are able to sustain spending, and you people are able to sustain spending, and you see people are able to sustain spending, and you see that people are able to sustain spending, and you see that in people are able to sustain spending, and you see that in the people are able to sustain spending, and you see that in the numbers. People are able to sustain spending, i and you see that in the numbers. The economy is and you see that in the numbers. Economy is one of the and you see that in the numbers. Tip; economy is one of the challenges and you see that in the numbers. Economy is one of the challenges for all the political parties, brian cox, we are about to hear from keir starmer, and previously you said he had a long way to go, you used to be a staunch labour supporter, now you support the snp, but has keir starmer made up any ground in your view . I starmer made up any ground in your view . ~ ,. , , view . I think quite considerably, particularly view . I think quite considerably, particularly about view . I think quite considerably, particularly about the view . I think quite considerably, particularly about the national. Particularly about the national health, i think it has been top heavy for too long, it has gone on for years, and top heavy for too long, it has gone on foryears, and it top heavy for too long, it has gone on for years, and it is not a new thing. It is battered on a regular basis because of that, exactly what keir has been talking about, i completely agree with him. Has he done enough completely agree with him. Has he done enough to completely agree with him. Has he done enough to get completely agree with him. Has he done enough to get you completely agree with him. Has he done enough to get you back completely agree with him. Has he done enough to get you back over| completely agree with him. Has he i done enough to get you back over to the labour party . Hat done enough to get you back over to the labour party . The labour party . Not quite my relationship the labour party . Not quite my relationship to the labour party . Not quite my relationship to scottish relationship to Scottish Independence is quite different. See, i do not believe. I do not believe that this is a break up of the united kingdom, i think it could be a different kind of united. I would like to see a united federation, where each country comes into its own and its sense of autonomy and can contribute as a result to a united federation, where everybody comes together. At the moment, it is top heavy, because it is very south orientated, and i feel that needs to change, that needs to shift. ,. ,. , that needs to change, that needs to shift. ,. , i. , that needs to change, that needs to shift. ,. , , shift. Caroline, your party has been miles behind shift. Caroline, your party has been miles behind labour shift. Caroline, your party has been miles behind labour for shift. Caroline, your party has been miles behind labour for a shift. Caroline, your party has been miles behind labour for a long shift. Caroline, your party has been | miles behind labour for a long time, miles behind labourfor a long time, and when i talk to your colleagues privately, some say it is better if we go into opposition for a while, after all the turmoil, to dust ourselves down, figure out what we are for. You think it might be the best thing for the tory party . Ida. Best thing for the tory party . No, it is an interesting perspective to think it is an interesting perspective to think we it is an interesting perspective to think we need better in opposition. You could think we need better in opposition. You could ask keir whether he has enjoyed you could ask keir whether he has enjoyed opposition very much, i imagine enjoyed opposition very much, i imagine hugely frustrating, i have never imagine hugely frustrating, i have never been in opposition, i came in in 2010 as never been in opposition, i came in in 2010 as part of the coalition and seen in 2010 as part of the coalition and seen conservative governments ever since. Seen conservative governments ever since. So seen conservative governments ever since. So i seen conservative governments ever since. So i think what we have to reflect since. So i think what we have to reflect on. Since. So i think what we have to reflect on. It since. So i think what we have to reflect on, it is a long time to the next reflect on, it is a long time to the next election, still another 18 months. Next election, still another 18 months, and i think people are writing months, and i think people are writing the off far too soon. If a week writing the off far too soon. If a week is writing the off far too soon. If a week is a writing the off far too soon. If a week is a long time in politics, what week is a long time in politics, what is week is a long time in politics, what is 18 week is a long time in politics, what is 18 months . What is 18 months . Probably a lifetime three years ago, the uk was still in the eu, no one had really heard of coronavirus, and after the 2019 disaster for labour, sir keir starmer had Just Announced he wanted to be the man to save the party and take number ten. He beat off his rivals and took whats often thought of as the worstjob in westminster, the leader of her majestys opposition. Hes here with us this morning. Here are some of the images from your time as Labour Leader. The accusation put to you has often been that you are a bit managerial, may be a bit boring, you are not going to get people excited, but actually you have been a very canny political operator, because you are 20 points ahead in the polls pretty consistently, isnt a truth that, far from consistently, isnt a truth that, farfrom being boring, you have been quietly ruthless . Far from being boring, you have been quietly ruthless . Quietly ruthless . Well, laura, i took a very quietly ruthless . Well, laura, i took a very straightforward quietly ruthless . Well, laura, i took a very straightforward approach took a very straightforward approach to the task i had. The labour party lost in 2019, the Waste Election Result since 1935, and many people thought it would be impossible for the labour party to come from that defeat into government, so i said we need to change our party. If you have lost out badly, you do not ask the electorate what they were doing . You look in the mirror and say we need to change. We set about changing the labour party, we had to expose the government is not fit, really, to govern, and then to say, if not them, then why us, and it has been three years of hard work, we have taken been three years of hard work, we have ta ken really been three years of hard work, we have taken really tough decisions, and we have put ourselves in a good position going into 2023. Do and we have put ourselves in a good position going into 2023. Position going into 2023. Do you think ou position going into 2023. Do you think you have position going into 2023. Do you think you have been position going into 2023. Do you think you have been ruthless . I position going into 2023. Do you think you have been ruthless . Some of your colleagues think you have pulled off a bit of a trick, because privately you have been ruthless, you have not led Jeremy Corbyn back into the party, and crucially you have ditched promises you made during the Leadership Campaign when they didnt suit you any more. Let me no they didnt suit you any more. Let me go through the change we made, because we had to tackle anti semitism, that was the first thing i said when i became leader of the party, absolutely determined to see that through. But we have also been absolutely clear on our position on nato, a proud member of nato, we changed fundamentally our relationship with business, and we are a changed labour party, i dont think anyone would looking in. But have ou think anyone would looking in. But have you been ruthless . Of course we have you been ruthless . Of course we have had to be have had to be ruthless, those chances, have had to be ruthless, those changes, nato, have had to be ruthless, those changes, nato, business, have had to be ruthless, those changes, nato, business, of. Have had to be ruthless, those changes, nato, business, of course we had to be ruthless and be absolutely clear, but the purpose of it was to restore the labour party as a party failed to serve our country, and that is why i said in my Conference Speech last year, country first, party second, and thatis country first, party second, and that is the approach i have taken for the last three years and the approach i will take from now into the election. Approach i will take from now into the election the election. That part of that has been junking the election. That part of that has been junking promises the election. That part of that has been junking promises that the election. That part of that has been junking promises that you. The election. That part of that has been junking promises that you made to your party. Now, when you run as leader, you said you would end outsourcing in the nhs that is out. You said you would abolish Universal Credit that is out. One of our viewers, edmund, Universal Credit that is out. One of ourviewers, edmund, he Universal Credit that is out. One of our viewers, edmund, he says, Universal Credit that is out. One of ourviewers, edmund, he says, if keir starmer has broken all of his pledges to the labour party, how can the country expect to trust a word he says . How can people trust you when you have, you know, explicitly junked promises you made . Weill. When you have, you know, explicitly junked promises you made . Well, when i was junked promises you made . Well, when i was running junked promises you made . Well, when i was running for junked promises you made . Well, when i was running for leader, junked promises you made . Well, when i was running for leader, i junked promises you made . Well, when i was running for leader, i made i was running for leader, i made pledges which reflected my values. Since then, we are now three years on, a lot has changed, as you said at the head of the programme. We have been through covid, we are still going through an awful conflict in ukraine, and a tory government has done huge damage to our economy. Government has done huge damage to our economy our economy. What has that got to do with ditching our economy. What has that got to do with ditching a our economy. What has that got to do with ditching a promise our economy. What has that got to do with ditching a promise to our economy. What has that got to do with ditching a promise to end with ditching a promise to end outsourcing in the nhs . 50 with ditching a promise to end outsourcing in the nhs . So far as the nhs is outsourcing in the nhs . So far as the nhs is concerned, outsourcing in the nhs . So far as the nhs is concerned, We Outsourcing in the nhs . So far as the nhs is concerned, we have i outsourcing in the nhs . So far as l the nhs is concerned, we have said we would make more use of the private sector to clear up Waiting Lists. Some use is made already, and we would make more use of that, because we have to clear the Waiting Lists. And we are in the worst crisis we have ever seen for the nhs. �. , crisis we have ever seen for the nhs. ~. , y. , crisis we have ever seen for the nhs. ~. , ,. , crisis we have ever seen for the nhs. �. ,. ,. , crisis we have ever seen for the nhs. �. ,. , nhs. But do you want people to trust ou, nhs. But do you want people to trust you. Though . Nhs. But do you want people to trust you. Though . This nhs. But do you want people to trust you, though . This is nhs. But do you want people to trust you, though . This is about nhs. But do you want people to trust you, though . This is about you you, though . This is about you making commitments and then changing your mind, is it important for people to be able to trust what you say . I people to be able to trust what you sa . ~ ,. , people to be able to trust what you sa . ~ , people to be able to trust what you sa . ,. , people to be able to trust what you sa . ~ ,. ,. , say . I think people will look at a leader of the say . I think people will look at a Leader Of The Opposition say . I think people will look at a Leader Of The Opposition and say . I think people will look at a l Leader Of The Opposition and say, say . I think people will look at a. Leader of the opposition and say, is that someone who is prepared to take the tough decisions according to the facts as they now are . Do the tough decisions according to the facts as they now are . Facts as they now are . Do you think it is important facts as they now are . Do you think it is important for facts as they now are . Do you think it is important for people facts as they now are . Do you think it is important for people to facts as they now are . Do you think it is important for people to be it is important for people to be able to trust you . fit it is important for people to be able to trust you . It is important for people to be able to trust you . Of course it is. You promised able to trust you . Of course it is. You promised you able to trust you . Of course it is. You promised you would able to trust you . Of course it is. You promised you would scrap i able to trust you . Of course it is. You promised you would scrap tuition fees. Does that promise stand . Weill. Fees. Does that promise stand . Well, look, ithink fees. Does that promise stand . Well, look, i think the fees. Does that promise stand . Well, look, i think the system fees. Does that promise stand . Ii look, i think the system needs to be changed, i do not think anybody would say it is working, but looking at the damage that has been done to the economy, Rachel Reeves and i have had to be clear that we will only make commitments that we can afford at the next General Election, so we need to look at that promise again. But i think, laura, in terms of trust, i am not sure you are right to assume doubt they would prefer someone who sought dogmatically insists that whatever was the position before could never change, even when the circumstances have changed. The damage done to our economy is huge, we are going to inherit a weakened, damaged economy. Now, we have to be prepared for that, and that is why i have called for a decade national renewal. We will not be able to do it all in the first five years of a labour government. It first five years of a labour government. First five years of a labour government. First five years of a labour covernment. ,. ~ government. It sounds very much like ou are government. It sounds very much like you are also government. It sounds very much like you are also going government. It sounds very much like you are also going to government. It sounds very much like you are also going to ditch government. It sounds very much like you are also going to ditch your you are also going to ditch your promise to scrap tuition fees, and i may be very good reason for that, i am not saying it is the right or the wrong thing to do, but i think not very subtly you are basically saying that that promises also for the chop. I that that promises also for the cho. ~. , that that promises also for the cho. ,. , chop. I think most people looking at the chaos of chop. I think most people looking at the chaos of the chop. I think most people looking at the chaos of the country chop. I think most people looking at the chaos of the country and the chaos of the country and watching this, we will go into this election ensuring that every single commitment that we make is fully costed. Commitment that we make is fully costed. I commitment that we make is fully costed. ~. Commitment that we make is fully costed. ,. , costed. I think what every listener will costed. I think what every listener will hear costed. I think what every listener will hear is costed. I think what every listener will hear is that costed. I think what every j listener will hear is that you costed. I think what every listener will hear is that you are not saying you will still scrap tuition fees. fin not saying you will still scrap tuition fees. Not saying you will still scrap tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see change, tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see change, i tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see change, i do tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see change, i do not. Tuition fees. On tuition fees, i want to see change, i do not think it works, but i said in my Conference Speech that there are things we would want to do but because of the damage the tories have done, we will not be able to do. There is so much that we need to fix. My focus has to be on stabilising the economy and growing it, on restoring our Public Services, and reforming them so they are fit for purpose. I think having that narrow focus going into the election will be fundamental, because people are crying out for hope, for change, for light at the end of the tunnel, and we need to provide that. I end of the tunnel, and we need to provide that provide that. I ust want to be c stal provide that. I ust want to be Crystal Ceanl provide that. I just want to be crystal clear, whether provide that. I just want to be crystal clear, whether for provide that. I just want to be l crystal clear, whether for young people watching this morning all parents watching this morning, as things stand, you are no longer promising that you would get rid of tuition fees, that is clear from what you have said. Tuition fees, that is clear from what you have said. No, we are lookin what you have said. No, we are looking at what you have said. No, we are looking at the what you have said. No, we are looking at the options. What you have said. No, we are looking at the options. What i l what you have said. No, we are i looking at the options. What i will not do is make commitments that we cannot make given the damage done to the economy. fin cannot make given the damage done to the economy the economy. On that specific point about the damage the economy. On that specific point about the damage to the economy. On that specific point about the damage to the the economy. On that specific point about the damage to the economy, j the economy. On that specific point i about the damage to the economy, one viewer, andrew douglas, got in touch. He wants to know, will keir starmer be as bold as sadiq khan who said that brexit is to blame for many of the countrys economic problems . I many of the countrys economic problems . Many of the countrys economic roblems . ,. ,. , problems . I do not think that the deal that the problems . I do not think that the deal that the government problems . I do not think that the deal that the government has i problems . I do not think that the i deal that the government has brought in is a very good deal, and it is doing damage to our economy, so of course we will need to repair that. There is no going back into the eu, there is no going back into the Single Market, but i do think there is a case for a Closer Trading Relationship with europe. I absolutely think there is a case for fixing the protocol in Northern Ireland. Fixing the protocol in Northern Lreland fixing the protocol in Northern Ireland. , ~ ireland. You were there this week in Northern Ireland. You were there this week in Northern Ireland. Ireland. You were there this week in Northern Ireland. I ireland. You were there this week in Northern Ireland. I think ireland. You were there this week in Northern Ireland. I think there i in Northern Ireland. I think there is a case for in Northern Ireland. I think there is a case for closer in Northern Ireland. I think there is a case for closer cooperation| in Northern Ireland. I think there i is a case for closer cooperation on is a case for closer co operation on security, the ukraine conflict i showed that working together we can have a closer relationship, so there are things we can do to improve the situation, but that doesnt mean going back to the eu. find situation, but that doesnt mean going back to the eu. Situation, but that doesnt mean going back to the eu. And you have said many times going back to the eu. And you have said many times that going back to the eu. And you have said many times that you going back to the eu. And you have said many times that you dont i going back to the eu. And you have | said many times that you dont want to have the argument again. By, said many times that you dont want to have the argument again. A Closer Tradin to have the argument again. A Closer Trading Relationship, to have the argument again. A Closer Trading Relationship, for to have the argument again. A Closer Trading Relationship, for example, i trading relationship, for example, would do a lot to improve our economy and would ease tensions in Northern Ireland, because one of the biggest problems with the protocol is when there is a difference in Northern Ireland from the rest of the united kingdom. I Northern Ireland from the rest of the united kingdom. Northern ireland from the rest of the united kingdom. I know you do not want to the united kingdom. I know you do not want to have the united kingdom. I know you do not want to have the the united kingdom. I know you do not want to have the argument i the united kingdom. I know you do i not want to have the argument again about going back into the European Union, although some in your party would like to say that, but do you think brexit was a mistake . I voted and campaigned for remain but we put it to the public in a referendum, they voted to leave. We have left and now we have to make it work. �. ,. , ~ have left and now we have to make it work. �. ,. ,. ,. , work. But do you think it was a mistake . Work. But do you think it was a mistake . Because work. But do you think it was a mistake . Because you work. But do you think it was a mistake . Because you were i mistake . Because you were campaigning to overturn the result. I wanted a different result, thats why i campaigned for remain, i wanted a different result in all the elections we had, thats why i want to win the next General Election. But i am focused on the future. We have left, we have to have a better trading relationship. The deal that was supposedly up and ready isnt at all a good dealfor our was supposedly up and ready isnt at all a good deal for our country was supposedly up and ready isnt at all a good dealfor our country and we need to change that. All a good deal for our country and we need to change that. All a good deal for our country and we need to change that. Some people would say the we need to change that. Some people would say the only we need to change that. Some people would say the only real we need to change that. Some people would say the only real way we need to change that. Some people would say the only real way to we need to change that. Some people would say the only real way to have i would say the only real way to have a closer relationship is to go back into the Single Market, so what do you mean . Im into the Single Market, so what do you mean . Into the Single Market, so what do ou mean . �. ,. ,. ,. , you mean . Im talking to european leaders about you mean . Im talking to european leaders about how you mean . Im talking to european leaders about how we you mean . Im talking to european leaders about how we have you mean . Im talking to european leaders about how we have a i you mean . Im talking to european| leaders about how we have a Closer Trading Relationship and they are not saying to me you must be in the Single Market, otherwise there is no prospect of a Closer Trading Relationship. I think its a mistake to say you are either stuck with johnsons awful deal or you have to go back into the eu, i dont accept that for a moment. Did go back into the eu, i dont accept that for a moment. Go back into the eu, i dont accept that for a moment. Did you think in our view that for a moment. Did you think in your view will that for a moment. Did you think in your view will be that for a moment. Did you think in your view will be always that for a moment. Did you think in your view will be always be that for a moment. Did you think in your view will be always be poorerl your view will be always be poorer as a result of leaving the eu and being outside the Single Market . We being outside the Single Market . Have got to go forward and make brexit work. I think that is a Closer Trading Relationship but there are other parts of our economy we need to fix. But there are other parts of our economy we need to fist we need to fix. But in your view, do ou think we need to fix. But in your view, do you think we we need to fix. But in your view, do you think we will we need to fix. But in your view, do you think we will always we need to fix. But in your view, do you think we will always be we need to fix. But in your view, do you think we will always be poorer, | you think we will always be poorer, the economy will always be smaller for as long as we stay outside of the European Union . 50 for as long as we stay outside of the European Union . The European Union . So long as we imrove the European Union . So long as we improve on the European Union . So long as we improve on the the European Union . So long as we improve on the deal, the European Union . So long as we improve on the deal, i the European Union . So long as we improve on the deal, i dont the European Union . So long as we improve on the deal, i dont accept| improve on the deal, i dont accept that. What people desperately want going into the election is that there is light at the end of the tunnel, things can get better. And i would add to this, the economy has not grown significantly for 13 years. That has been a failure of this government. So even before brexit, we had a failure under this tory government with our economy. Im determined we will fix that and thats why we set out our plans at conference for a prosperity plan, and why i have said so much about making sure that the economy grows everywhere across the uk, and that is the focus of my attention. Is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus of is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus of your is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus of your attention i is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus of your attention and l is the focus of my attention. Whats also a focus of your attention and a | also a focus of your attention and a lot of politicians� and a lot of our viewers� is the nhs. We all know there are terrible problems with the nhs and you and your team have been throwing punches with this recently, even on the front of the telegraph this morning talking about the need for reform but also using some pretty choice language. You talk about bureaucratic nonsense, mundane inconvenience, mind boggling waste of time and money. That� s not normally how we are accustomed to hearing Labour Leader is talking about the Health Service, but when it comes to sorting things out, is anything off the table for you . M0. Anything off the table for you . No, we want to anything off the table for you . No, we want to look anything off the table for you . Iifr, we want to look at all sorts of reform. But the reason i want to reform. But the reason i want to reform the Health Service is because i want to preserve it. I think if we don� t reform the Health Service, we will be in managed decline. The Health Service is in the worst position it� s been in its entire history under the tories, so we have too of course fixed the immediate problem, but in the long term we have to recognise we need change. Partly about bureaucracy. Anyone who has been at eight o� clock trying to get a Gp Appointment knows exactly what i� m talking about, but also its living longer, we need intervention. It will always have to be free at the point of use, of course it should be a public service, but that doesn� t mean we should use effectively the private sector as well. � , ,. , effectively the private sector as well. , � , well. Thats interesting you say nothina well. Thats interesting you say nothing is well. Thats interesting you say nothing is off well. Thats interesting you say nothing is off the well. Thats interesting you say nothing is off the table well. Thats interesting you say nothing is off the table but well. Thats interesting you say nothing is off the table but it. Well. Thats interesting you say. Nothing is off the table but it must still be free at the point of use. Can you see a change to the way the funding operates . The Founding Principle of the nhs and it is fundamental to me. I have been a reformer of Public Services for a very long time, i ran the Crown Prosecution Service for five years and i could see we needed to reform, and we did reform. We made huge changes when i was director of public prosecutions. They� ll always be people saying don� t change, keep it as it is. But for me it� s not the private sector that is the reform we are looking for, i want a preventative model. We are living longer, this is a fantastic thing but it means the Health Service has to change, so intervention earlier, more use of technology. Can to change, so intervention earlier, more use of technology. To change, so intervention earlier, more use of technology. Can you ever see a situation more use of technology. Can you ever see a situation where more use of technology. Can you ever see a situation where the more use of technology. Can you ever see a situation where the nhs more use of technology. Can you ever see a situation where the nhs does. See a situation where the nhs does less . Because the Health Minister in wales said maybe the nhs might have to do less in future. In wales said maybe the nhs might have to do less in future. To do less in future. In some cases i do hoe to do less in future. In some cases i do hope we to do less in future. In some cases i do hope we can to do less in future. In some cases i do hope we can lift to do less in future. In some cases i do hope we can lift the to do less in future. In some cases i do hope we can lift the burden. I i do hope we can lift the burden. One of the proposals we put forward is would it be possible to consider Self Referral so individuals don� t have to go to a doctor, use up their time in order to get referred to specialist help. For back pain and you want to see a physio, it should be possible to self refer. If you have internal bleeding and you need a test, there should be a way that doesn� t involve going to see a gp. So we do need to lift the burden but we also need to change. One of the things going into this year that i have charged my team with, with Wes Streeting i said if the nhs is to survive, i need you to come up with proposals for reform. To bridget philipson, the education shadow secretary i said we need to reform when it comes to childcare. And Jonathan Ashworth when it comes to over 50 is coming back into work. So what i have asked all my team to do is we have got to fix the immediate problems we face because it feels like the country is completely broken, but we have also got to do the longer term work. The longer term work. When you talk about the problems the longer term work. When you talk about the problems of the longer term work. When you talk about the problems of the the longer term work. When you talk about the problems of the country, | about the problems of the country, you are never a few seconds away from blaming the conservatives for the problems, but if you look at the nhs in wales which is run by the labour administration, nhs in wales which is run by the labouradministration, its nhs in wales which is run by the labour administration, its problems arejust as bad in most areas, in some areas worse. If it is the conservatives� vault in england, surely it is labour� s vault in wales. I surely it is labours vault in wales. ,. , wales. I would say two things in resonse wales. I would say two things in response to wales. I would say two things in response to that. Wales. I would say two things in response to that. The wales. I would say two things in response to that. The first wales. I would say two things in response to that. The first is wales. I would say two things in l response to that. The first is that the real comparison, now we are 13 years into this government, ought to be with 13 years of the last labour government, and investment was up, Waiting Lists were down, nurses had fair pay and they went on strike. So it was a massive difference between these 13 years and the previous 13 years. There are short term issues we need to do, we have to get through this winter of crisis. This was a speech i did two weeks ago, my new year� s speech was to say we have got to get away from what i call sticking plaster politics which is where we just fix the immediate problem but we don� t do the long term strategic work to reform and change, whether it� s the economy, whether it� s Public Services, and that is self defeating. We have had 13 years of worse and worse Winter Crisis for the nhs. If we don� t do the long term work, we will have another crisis next winter and that� s not good enough. Crisis next winter and thats not good enough crisis next winter and thats not good enough. Crisis next winter and thats not auoodenouh. , � ,. ,. , good enough. You say theres a lot of thins good enough. You say theres a lot of things on good enough. You say theres a lot of things on your good enough. You say theres a lot of things on your list good enough. You say theres a lot of things on your list you good enough. You say theres a lot of things on your list you would of things on your list you would like to fix and there is a lot on our list to get through. Following move on, a straightforward answer please, have you ever used private healthcare . Ida. Please, have you ever used private healthcare . Ila. Ok, let� s move on. Healthcare . No. Ok, lets move on. If ou are healthcare . Ila ok, lets move on. If you are Prime Minister, would you allow people to change their gender without a medical diagnosis to do it more quickly and to bring in a system of what� s known as Gender Self Identification . I system of whats known as Gender Self Identification . System of whats known as Gender Self Identification . I think we need to modernise Self Identification . I think we need to modernise the Self Identification . I think we need to modernise the process Self Identification . I think we need to modernise the process and Self Identification . I think we need to modernise the process and we | Self Identification . I think we need i to modernise the process and we are looking in the labour party at what that process should be. I start this discussion on the two premises, firstly i think the British Public are respectful and tolerant, and secondly i think that it� s obvious that 99. 9 of women, the issue is biological. There have been huge strides in women� s right led very often by the labour party and i� m keen we preserve that going forward, including things like safe spaces. But there are a small number of people who don� t identify with the gender they are born into. There is a process they can go through at the moment. There are indignities in that process that i think can be improved through modernising the legislation, but what i don� t want to get drawn into is the usual toxic political football that this always seems to become. find political football that this always seems to become. Political football that this always seems to become. �. ,. , seems to become. And far from it, we want to have seems to become. And far from it, we want to have a seems to become. And far from it, we want to have a respectable want to have a respectable conversation about this but our viewers want to know what your position would be. So would you, as the Scottish Government has done, as Scottish Labour voted for, would you introduce or look to introduce a system of Self Certification . We want to system of Self Certification . , want to modernise the system, we are looking at the options. There are all sorts of different definitions in relation to Self Certification. So far as the scotland provision is concerned, i do have concerns about the age of transition reduced now to 16, and we put amendments forward in relation to that, and also the primacy of equality act which is important when it comes to safe spaces. Important when it comes to safe saces. , important when it comes to safe saces. ,. , important when it comes to safe saces. , ,. , spaces. Explain why Scottish Labour backed that system spaces. Explain why Scottish Labour backed that system in spaces. Explain why Scottish Labour backed that system in the spaces. Explain why Scottish Labour backed that system in the last backed that system in the last couple of weeks, they supported it, were they wrong to support it then . That was at a matter for Scottish Labour and that was at a matter for Scottish Labourand i� m that was at a matter for Scottish Labour and i� m telling you the positioning regards to the whole labour party. We want to modernise the legislation and make sure that some of the indignities that are there in the process are taken out. When i say [99. 9 of women it is biological and their rights must be preserved, equality is very important to the labour party, most people say i agree with you. But i also say there is a small number of people born with a gender they don� t identify with and they need to be treated with respect, most people across the country say that seems a position i can support as well. And position i can support as well. And ou have position i can support as well. And you have made position i can support as well. And you have made that point but politicians don� tjust have to make points, they have to make choices. In scotland, your party backed the snps in scotland, your party backed the snp� s attempt to change the law to make it easier for people to change gender without having medical diagnosis and to do it at 16. You said you have concerns about that, but do you then and are you saying this morning you don� t support the law that has been introduced in scotland . We law that has been introduced in scotland . ~. Law that has been introduced in scotland . ~ ,. ,. , scotland . We put down amendments which unfortunately scotland . We put down amendments which unfortunately didnt scotland . We put down amendments which unfortunately didnt carry. Which unfortunately didn� t carry. But i� m asking really straightforwardly, the law has been changed in scotland, there is a separate conversation. Mi; changed in scotland, there is a separate conversation. Separate conversation. My answer is i have concerns separate conversation. My answer is i have concerns about separate conversation. My answer is i have concerns about the is i have concerns about the provision in scotland in particular the age reduction to 16, and the rejection of our amendment in relation to the equalities act. But across the whole of the area, i think we should modernise the law and i think we need a respectful debate that recognises the different arguments being made. At the moment this isjust treated arguments being made. At the moment this is just treated as a political football from start to finish and i don� t think that advances the cause of anyone. Dont think that advances the cause of an one. ,. , dont think that advances the cause ofan one. ,. , dont think that advances the cause of an one. ,. , ~ of anyone. That is why also i think eole of anyone. That is why also i think people want of anyone. That is why also i think people want to of anyone. That is why also i think people want to know of anyone. That is why also i think people want to know really of anyone. That is why also i think people want to know really clearly what your position is rather than having. What your position is rather than havinu. ,. ,. ,. , having. Modernise legislation to take out the having. Modernise legislation to take out the indignities. Having. Modernise legislation to take out the indignities. But having. Modernise legislation to take out the indignities. But you l take out the indignities. But you therefore dont take out the indignities. But you therefore dont back take out the indignities. But you therefore dont back this therefore don� t back this happening at 16 . Therefore don� t back this happening at16 . It therefore don� t back this happening at 16 . It sounds like that� s what you are saying, you would not agree you are saying, you would not agree you are saying, you would not agree you are old enough at the age of 16 . No, i don� t think you are. You are old enough at the age of 16 . No, i dont think you are. No, i dont think you are. Would ou, if no, i dont think you are. Would you. If you no, i dont think you are. Would you. If you were no, i dont think you are. Would you, if you were prime no, i dont think you are. Would you, if you were Prime Minister| you, if you were Prime Minister therefore, would you block the legislation that scotland has passed . Legislation that scotland has assed . ,. ,. , legislation that scotland has assed . ,. ,. , passed . The government has floated some ideas about passed . The government has floated some ideas about what passed . The government has floated some ideas about what it passed . The government has floated some ideas about what it might passed . The government has floated some ideas about what it might do. L some ideas about what it might do. We haven� t seen that yet, i think they are taking more legal advice so i will wait and see what the government actually says in relation to that. ~. ,. , government actually says in relation tothat. ~. ,. , to that. What would you consider blockin to that. What would you consider blocking it . To that. What would you consider blocking it . They to that. What would you consider blocking it . They have to that. What would you consider blocking it . They have loaded. To that. What would you consider blocking it . They have loaded number of ideas in the blocking it . They have loaded number of ideas in the media blocking it . They have loaded number of ideas in the media last blocking it . They have loaded number of ideas in the media last week blocking it . They have loaded number of ideas in the media last week and i of ideas in the media last week and saturday, let� s actually see what they put on the table. But saturday, lets actually see what they put on the table. Saturday, lets actually see what they put on the table. But you used to be one of they put on the table. But you used to be one of the they put on the table. But you used to be one of the most they put on the table. But you used to be one of the most senior they put on the table. But you used l to be one of the most senior lawyers in the country, you know the law very, very well. I� m not sure you are waiting to see what the government is saying. I� m asking what you would think about blocking it if you were Prime Minister. I� m it if you were Prime Minister. Im auoin to it if you were Prime Minister. In going to wait and see what the government says. They have floated ideas, i will wait and see where they end up if they do in the coming days. They end up if they do in the coming da s. , they end up if they do in the coming da 5,. , they end up if they do in the coming da s. , ,. , days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that the days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that the law days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that the law that days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that the law that has days. Some women feel very strongly and worry that the law that has been | and worry that the law that has been passed in scotland puts them at risk. Does it . Passed in scotland puts them at risk. Does it . One of the reasons ive been clear risk. Does it . One of the reasons ive been clear about risk. Does it . One of the reasons ive been clear about the risk. Does it . One of the reasons. Ive been clear about the importance i� ve been clear about the importance of the equality act is for example safe spaces are very important for women, and i completely understand that. When i was director of public prosecutions, i did a lot of work with women who had been victims of domestic violence. The with women who had been victims of domestic violence. Domestic violence. The new law uts domestic violence. The new law puts them domestic violence. The new law puts them at domestic violence. The new law puts them at risk . Domestic violence. The new law puts them at risk . Im domestic violence. The new law puts them at risk . Im very domestic violence. The new law puts them at risk . Im very keen | domestic violence. The new law i puts them at risk . Im very keen to reserve puts them at risk . Im very keen to preserve their puts them at risk . Im very keen to preserve their safe puts them at risk . Im very keen to preserve their safe spaces. Puts them at risk . Im very keen to preserve their safe spaces. The puts them at risk . Im very keen toj preserve their safe spaces. The two concerns i had are the age and secondly the fact our amendment under the equality act was not accepted. So safe spaces for women are important, it is something i fundamentally believe in, and that� s why i have concerns about the fact our amendment was not accepted. Ok. Our amendment was not accepted. Ok, its a complicated conversation but it� s a complicated conversation but it� s a complicated conversation but it� s interesting we had a lot of e mails from viewers wanting to know your position. Onto a different subject, if Likejohn Major was when charles and diana were having terrible angst in their marriage, john major was asked to intervene. If you were asked to intervene in the royal unhappiness at the moment, would you as Prime Minister . Ila. I would you as Prime Minister . No. I dont think would you as Prime Minister . No. I dont think politicians would you as Prime Minister . Ila i dont think politicians wading in to don� t think politicians wading in to the current disputes is helpful at all. I think the current disputes is helpful at all. Ithink it the current disputes is helpful at all. I think it is very sad that the royalfamily is going all. I think it is very sad that the royal family is going through this anguish, not least because of the passing of the late queen in the autumn of last year, but i don� t think politicians wading in helps them or anybody else. Essen think politicians wading in helps them or anybody else. Think politicians wading in helps them or anybody else. Even if you were asked them or anybody else. Even if you were asked to them or anybody else. Even if you were asked to help them or anybody else. Even if you were asked to help privately, them or anybody else. Even if you were asked to help privately, you | were asked to help privately, you would say no . Nothing to do with me . I know some politicians have been wading in any last week got there, i am not going to do that. Ii. Wading in any last week got there, i am not going to do that. Am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinkina am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinking back am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinking back over am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinking back over the am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinking back over the last am not going to do that. If, sorry, thinking back over the last three l thinking back over the last three eventful years, you have sometimes been criticised, perhaps as you did just then, for sitting back, not always wading in, not always being on the front foot, some in your party saying you have been a bit slow, Leaden Footed and too cautious. Do you feel your strategy is paying off . Is paying off . Yes. There is one thing that is paying off . Yes. There is one thing that is is paying off . Yes. There is one thing that is absolutely is paying off . Yes. There is one thing that is absolutely bolted l is paying off . Yes. There is one i thing that is absolutely bolted on, guaranteed as Leader Of The Opposition, that everybody has a view on what you should be doing, and everybody thinks they could do a better job and everybody thinks they could do a betterjob than and everybody thinks they could do a better job than you and everybody thinks they could do a betterjob than you could and so i have had no end of advice and continue to get no end of advice. You get people saying, if only he had done that, if only he did that i have had to be single minded in relation to this. I knew i had to change the labour party, to expose the government is not fit to govern, and put forward the case for hope and put forward the case for hope and change under the labour party, and change under the labour party, and i have been, if you like, i have pushed the noise to one side and concentrated on the job pushed the noise to one side and concentrated on thejob i needed to do. And it is not about me, the labour party has to be a party failed to serve our country, and it is now a party fit to serve our country. But we also have to answer not just the short term country. But we also have to answer notjust the short term problems our country is facing, but the long term issues as well, to bring about the change we need. 5a issues as well, to bring about the change we need. Issues as well, to bring about the change we need. So sir keir starmer was the tour change we need. So sir keir starmer was the tour does change we need. So sir keir starmer was the tour does not change we need. So sir keir starmer was the tour does not their change we need. So sir keir starmer was the tour does not their hair. Was the tour does not their hair. Well, you can pick whatever description, and i have seen plenty of descriptions frankly, it is water off a duck� s a back. When i was a child, i didn� t dream of being Prime Minister, when i came into parliament, i didn� t dream of being Prime Minister. Parliament, i didnt dream of being Prime Minister. Parliament, i didnt dream of being Prime Minister. Not parliament, i didnt dream of being Prime Minister. Not at parliament, i didnt dream of being| Prime Minister. Not at all, Prime Minister. Really . not at all, this is duty. Prime minister. Really . not at all, this is duty. The Prime Minister. Really . not at all, this is duty, the obligation Prime Minister. Really . not at all, this is duty, the obligation to this is duty, the obligation to serve our country and improve lives, and there is nothing worse than being in opposition, i have been in opposition all the time i have been in parliament. We vote, we lose, we don� t change lives. We need to be a party capable of going into power, i have been utterly focused on that, and from day one, people have been saying, keir, put out your bold ideas, don� t concentrate on changing the party. But i have persevered, i have had a strategy, i think we have been vindicated. I know there is a long way to go, i tell the Shadow Cabinet every time we meet to fight like we are 5 behind in the polls, every vote has to be earned. If you think what has happened in the last year, a lot has changed, and a lot will change in the next day. I am going to carry on with my focused, determined approach that will get us, i hope, from the worst election since 1935 to form a labour government. Since 1935 to form a labour government. Since 1935 to form a labour rovernment. �. ,. ,. ,. , government. And do you have a concern that government. And do you have a concern that there government. And do you have a concern that there is government. And do you have a concern that there is a government. And do you have a concern that there is a risk government. And do you have a concern that there is a risk of i concern that there is a risk of being overconfident . Concern that there is a risk of being overconfident . There is a risk of it, but being overconfident . There is a risk of it. But i am being overconfident . There is a risk of it, but i am absolutely of it, but i am absolutely determined that we will not take that risk, and so earn every vote, make the case to serve our country and fight like we are five points behind in the polls all of the time. 0k, behind in the polls all of the time. Ok, keir starmer, thank you very much for coming in. It is never quiet in british politics. Thank you very much for coming in. Let� s dissect that a little bit with the panel. They are here for the hour to decode what is really going on. Howard davies, you were Deputy Governor of the bank of england, now responsible for £25 billion at natwest, what did you make of what keir starmer said about the impact of brexit . He was a bit reluctant to point fingers at it being part of the problem, although maybe he got there in the end. I guess his problem is that if he isnt guess his problem is that if he isnt planning guess his problem is that if he isnt planning to guess his problem is that if he isnt planning to take guess his problem is that if he isnt planning to take us guess his problem is that if he isnt planning to take us backl guess his problem is that if he. Isnt planning to take us back into the single isnt planning to take us back into the Single Market isnt planning to take us back into the Single Market or isnt planning to take us back into the Single Market or the isnt planning to take us back into the Single Market or the eu, isnt planning to take us back into the Single Market or the eu, then accepting the Single Market or the eu, then accepting the the Single Market or the eu, then accepting the economic the Single Market or the eu, then accepting the economic consequences sounds accepting the economic consequences sounds a accepting the economic consequences sounds a little accepting the economic consequences sounds a little bit accepting the economic consequences sounds a little bit negative, accepting the economic consequences sounds a little bit negative, but accepting the economic consequences sounds a little bit negative, but I Sounds A Little Bit negative, but i think sounds a little bit negative, but i think the sounds a little bit negative, but i think the reality sounds a little bit negative, but i think the reality is sounds a little bit negative, but i think the reality is that sounds a little bit negative, but i think the reality is that the think the reality is that the economy think the reality is that the economy is think the reality is that the economy is smaller, think the reality is that the i economy is smaller, almost think the reality is that the economy is smaller, almost all Economists Economy is smaller, almost all economists believe economy is smaller, almost all economists believe that economy is smaller, almost all economists believe that the i economy is smaller, almost all economists believe that the economy is about economists believe that the economy is about 5 economists believe that the economy is about 5 smaller economists believe that the economy is about 5 smaller or economists believe that the economy is about 5 smaller or will economists believe that the economy is about 5 smaller or will be economists believe that the economy is about 5 smaller or will be over. 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And it is one of the reasons why we are significant handicap. And it is one of the reasons why we are now i significant handicap. And it is one of the reasons why we are now at j significant handicap. And it is one of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the growth of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the growth table of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the growth table in of the reasons why we are now at the bottom of the growth table in the bottom of the growth table in the major bottom of the growth table in the major industrialised bottom of the growth table in the major industrialised countries, i bottom of the growth table in the| major industrialised countries, we are the major industrialised countries, we are the only major industrialised countries, we are the only country major industrialised countries, we are the only country which major industrialised countries, we are the only country which has i major industrialised countries, wej are the only country which has not recovered are the only country which has not recovered gdp are the only country which has not recovered gdp to are the only country which has not recovered gdp to back are the only country which has not recovered gdp to back before, i are the only country which has not i recovered gdp to back before, what it was recovered gdp to back before, what it was before recovered gdp to back before, what it was before covid. Recovered gdp to back before, what it was before covid. So recovered gdp to back before, what it was before covid. So we recovered gdp to back before, what it was before covid. So we have i recovered gdp to back before, what it was before covid. So we have to i it was before covid. So we have to accept it was before covid. So we have to accept that it was before covid. So we have to accept that is it was before covid. So we have to accept that is a it was before covid. So we have to accept that is a significant accept that is a significant handicap accept that is a significant handicap we accept that is a significant handicap we have accept that is a significant handicap we have brought accept that is a significant i handicap we have brought on ourselves handicap we have brought on ourselves handicap we have brought on ourselves. �. ,. ,. , ourselves. Brian cox, what was your overall impression . Ourselves. Brian cox, what was your overall impression . I ourselves. Brian cox, what was your overall impression . I am ourselves. Brian cox, what was your overall impression . I am very. I. Overall impression . I am very. I am very proud overall impression . I am very. I am very proud of overall impression . I am very. I am very proud of scotland overall impression . I am very. I am very proud of scotland for overall impression . I am very. I. Am very proud of scotland for doing the Gender Identification act, because i think it is long needed, and it is a debate that has to happen, and i do question the 16 thing, but that is my own personal feeling. But i do feel we need to address that, and i think that is absolutely right. As far as the economy is concerned, well, of course it has shrunk because we are no longer that particular island that we have been, and so we have lost that power, and therefore we have to rethink who we are, and it is, i think, have to rethink who we are, and it is, ithink, the have to rethink who we are, and it is, i think, the beginning of a whole process of rethinking who we are, and i think since the passing of, you know, our wonderful late queen, we have had to consider the monarchy, and we are seeing it in relationship to what has been going on in the book, the harry situation, so there is a lot of Mass Rethinking that needs to be done. And so there is a lot of Mass Rethinking that needs to be done. So there is a lot of Mass Rethinking that needs to be done. And a lot of eole that needs to be done. And a lot of people are that needs to be done. And a lot of people are thinking that needs to be done. And a lot of people are thinking about that needs to be done. And a lot of people are thinking about identity, | people are thinking about identity, and on the question of the gender debate, it has been very controversial in scotland, a lot of abuse flying around, not least atjk rowling, who has become a leaderfor a particular group of people with real concerns. What you make of the way she has been treated . I da real concerns. What you make of the way she has been treated . Way she has been treated . I do not like the way way she has been treated . I do not like the way she way she has been treated . I do not like the way she has way she has been treated . I do not like the way she has been way she has been treated . I do not like the way she has been treated, | like the way she has been treated, actually. I think she is entitled to say what she feels. As a woman, she is very much entitled to say what she feels about her own body, and there is nobody better to say that as a woman. So i do feel people have been high and mighty about their own attitude towardsjk rowling, quite frankly. Attitude towards jk rowling, quite frankl. ,. Attitude towards jk rowling, quite frankl. ,. ,. , frankly. It has been, caroline, very frauaht in frankly. It has been, caroline, very fraught in scotland, frankly. It has been, caroline, very fraught in scotland, and frankly. It has been, caroline, very fraught in scotland, and there i frankly. It has been, caroline, very fraught in scotland, and there will| fraught in scotland, and there will be more tense negotiations around this issue in westminster too, but the government in westminster is considering blocking the change of law that has been hard in scotland. Do you think they should blockage . It would be the first time that the government in westminster has ever stopped a law being changed in scotland like that. Stopped a law being changed in scotland like that. Well, look, i checked a scotland like that. Well, look, i checked a select scotland like that. Well, look, i checked a select committee i scotland like that. Well, look, i. Checked a select committee which recommended a raft of proposals which recommended a raft of proposals which are recommended a raft of proposals which are broadly in line with what the Scottish Government has done, so from nry the Scottish Government has done, so from my perspective, i think it would from my perspective, i think it would he from my perspective, i think it would be grossly hypocritical to say. Would be grossly hypocritical to say. Yes, would be grossly hypocritical to say, yes, the government should block say, yes, the government should block it. Say, yes, the government should block it, but there are legal and constitutional implications of this. Ithink constitutional implications of this. I think using the scotland act on this particular issue, it absolutely looks this particular issue, it absolutely looks like this particular issue, it absolutely looks like an odd issue to fight your looks like an odd issue to fight your constitutional fight over. It is important to reflect that while all sorts is important to reflect that while all sorts of toxic allegations are thrown all sorts of toxic allegations are thrown around in this debate, from terf thrown around in this debate, from terf used thrown around in this debate, from terf used as a term of abuse to some quite aggressive tactics from those who are quite aggressive tactics from those who are very passionately committed to additional trans right on the other, to additional trans right on the other, the to additional trans right on the other, the vast majority of people are right other, the vast majority of people are right in other, the vast majority of people are right in the middle and want to see trans are right in the middle and want to see trans people treated with respect, see trans people treated with respect, but also make sure that womens respect, but also make sure that womens rights are absolutely upheld and that womens rights are absolutely upheld and that there are safe spaces for single and that there are safe spaces for single site. But and that there are safe spaces for single site single site. But some people in the government single site. But some people in the government seem single site. But some people in the government seem quite i single site. But some people in. The government seem quite happy single site. But some people in i the government seem quite happy to stay this up, are you uncomfortable about that . I stay this up, are you uncomfortable about that . Stay this up, are you uncomfortable about that . , ,. ,. , about that . I am very uncomfortable about that . I am very uncomfortable about gender about that . I am very uncomfortable about gender wars, about that . I am very uncomfortable about gender wars, about about that . I am very uncomfortable about gender wars, about having i about that . I am very uncomfortable i about gender wars, about having some sort of about gender wars, about having some sort of culture war about this. I think sort of culture war about this. I think what sort of culture war about this. I think what is absolutely imperative is that think what is absolutely imperative is that we think what is absolutely imperative is that we treat everybody with respect, is that we treat everybody with respect, and we try to have a debate around respect, and we try to have a debate around Gender Identification that recognises the reality that there are people who are born in the wrong body. Are people who are born in the wrong body. Who are people who are born in the wrong body, who worked incredibly hard their entire life to get the recognition for the person that they are, and recognition for the person that they are, and Nry Recognition for the person that they are, and my committee has taken private are, and my committee has taken private evidence from individuals, from private evidence from individuals, from Trans Private evidence from individuals, from trans people, and listening to their struggles, listening to the discrimination and abuse they have faced. Discrimination and abuse they have faced. I discrimination and abuse they have faced, i absolutely believe we have to make faced, i absolutely believe we have to make the process simpler and kinder~ to make the process simpler and kinder. But i really fear the use of these kinder. But i really fear the use of these as kinder. But i really fear the use of these as some sort of Woke Culture War to these as some sort of Woke Culture War to sow these as some sort of Woke Culture War to sow and make life harder, on both sides war to sow and make life harder, on both sides of war to sow and make life harder, on both sides of the organ. And war to sow and make life harder, on both sides of the organ. Both sides of the organ. And you think people both sides of the organ. And you think people in both sides of the organ. And you think people in your both sides of the organ. And you think people in your party both sides of the organ. And you think people in your party are i think people in your party are trying to use it as a Battering Ram . I think it is obvious they are, absolutely yes. I think it is obvious they are, absolutely yes. I think it is obvious they are, absolutel es. ,. Absolutely yes. Interesting to hear keir starmer absolutely yes. Interesting to hear keir starmer not absolutely yes. Interesting to hear keir starmer not that absolutely yes. Interesting to hear keir starmer not that they absolutely yes. Interesting to hear keir starmer not that they will i absolutely yes. Interesting to hear| keir starmer not that they willjunk keir starmer not that they will junk the promise to abolish tuition fees, but his Direction Of Travel is clear. What are the economics of that . Is itjust too expensive to do right now . Looking at the state of Public Spending . It right now . Looking at the state of Public Spending . Right now . Looking at the state of Public Spending . It depends if you will replace Public Spending . It depends if you will replace the Public Spending . It depends if you will replace the income Public Spending . It depends if you will replace the income for Public Spending . It depends if you will replace the income for the i will replace the income for the universities will replace the income for the universities or will replace the income for the universities or not. Will replace the income for the universities or not. What will replace the income for the universities or not. What is i will replace the income for the I Universities or not. What is quite interesting universities or not. What is quite interesting is universities or not. What is quite interesting is that universities or not. What is quite interesting is that this universities or not. What is quite interesting is that this has universities or not. What is quite interesting is that this has beenl interesting is that this has been unchanged interesting is that this has been unchanged now interesting is that this has been unchanged now for interesting is that this has been unchanged now for 12 interesting is that this has been unchanged now for 12 years, i interesting is that this has beeni unchanged now for 12 years, and interesting is that this has been i unchanged now for 12 years, and we have had unchanged now for 12 years, and we have had inflation unchanged now for 12 years, and we have had Inflation Averaging unchanged now for 12 years, and we have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , i have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one year have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one year of have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one year of 10 , have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one year of 10 , so have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , plus one year of 10 , so the have had Inflation Averaging 2 3 , i plus one year of 10 , so the Amount Universities plus one year of 10 , so the Amount Universities are plus one year of 10 , so the Amount Universities are getting plus one year of 10 , so the Amount Universities are getting has plus one year of 10 , so the Amount Universities are getting has fallen I Universities are getting has fallen very sharply universities are getting has fallen very sharply in universities are getting has fallen very sharply in real universities are getting has fallen very sharply in real terms universities are getting has fallenj very sharply in real terms without the government very sharply in real terms without the government doing very sharply in real terms without the government doing anything, i very sharply in real terms withouti the government doing anything, if you like the government doing anything, if you like so the government doing anything, if you like. So there the government doing anything, if you like. So there has the government doing anything, if you like. So there has been the government doing anything, if you like. So there has been a i the government doing anything, if. You like. So there has been a change in policy you like. So there has been a Change In Policy By you like. So there has been a Change In Policy By this you like. So there has been a Change In Policy By this government in policy by this government already in policy by this government already. But if in policy by this government already. But if you in policy by this government already. But if you were i in policy by this government already. But if you were to i in policy by this government already. But if you were to remove all of already. But if you were to remove all of the already. But if you were to remove all of the tuition already. But if you were to remove all of the tuition fee, already. But if you were to remove all of the tuition fee, and already. But if you were to remove all of the tuition fee, and replace i all of the tuition fee, and replace it all all of the tuition fee, and replace it all with all of the tuition fee, and replace it all with government all of the tuition fee, and replace it all with government spending, | it all with government spending, that would it all with government spending, that would be it all with government spending, that would be very it all with government spending, that would be very difficult it all with government spending, that would be very difficult to i that would be very difficult to afford. That would be very difficult to afford. Given that would be very difficult to afford, given the that would be very difficult to afford, given the fiscal that would be very difficult to. Afford, given the fiscal profile, that would be very difficult to i afford, given the fiscal profile, so ithink afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i can afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i can understand afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i can understand why afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i can understand why he i afford, given the fiscal profile, so i think i can understand why he isj afford, given the fiscal profile, so i i think i can understand why he is a bit cautious i think i can understand why he is a bit cautious now i think i can understand why he is a bit cautious now about i think i can understand why he is a bit cautious now about saying, i i bit cautious now about saying, i will can bit cautious now about saying, i will can all bit cautious now about saying, i will can all of bit cautious now about saying, i will can all of this. Bit cautious now about saying, i will can all of this. Because i bit cautious now about saying, i i will can all of this. Because since the truss will can all of this. Because since the truss kwarteng will can all of this. Because since the truss kwarteng adventure, i will can all of this. Because since i the truss kwarteng adventure, and we realised the truss kwarteng adventure, and we realised there the truss kwarteng adventure, and we realised there were the truss kwarteng adventure, and we realised there were restraints the truss kwarteng adventure, and we realised there were restraints on realised there were restraints on what realised there were restraints on what could realised there were restraints on what could be realised there were restraints on what could be borrowed, realised there were restraints on i what could be borrowed, spending all that nroney what could be borrowed, spending all that money is what could be borrowed, spending all that money is looking what could be borrowed, spending all that money is looking hard. What could be borrowed, spending all that money is looking hard. The . What could be borrowed, spending all that money is looking hard. They may be one that money is looking hard. They may be gone but that money is looking hard. They may be gone but they that money is looking hard. They may be gone but they have that money is looking hard. They may be gone but they have got that money is looking hard. They may be gone but they have got a that money is looking hard. They may be gone but they have got a legacy i be gone but they have got a legacy and have changed the political debate. Brian cox, you said you were proud of how scotland has changed the law on gender recognition. As somebody who is committed to the independence movement, very interested in what you are saying about a federalised uk, are you frustrated that Nicola Sturgeon may be going back on her promise to use the General Election as a referendum . The General Election as a referendum . ,. ,. ,. , referendum . You are a fellow scot, so ou referendum . You are a fellow scot, so you will referendum . You are a fellow scot, so you will understand referendum . You are a fellow scot, so you will understand the referendum . You are a fellow scot, so you will understand the word i so you will understand the word canny, and i think she is being very canny, and i think she is being very canny, and i think she should be canny, and i think she should be canny, given the situation, and it is a hot potato, you know, it has been a hot potato for a long time, as Gender Identification is. So i think she is following the right course. If you consider what happened in the catalan referendum, it was an illegal referendum, and they suffered as a result, so she has to be very, very careful that we are doing it the right way. But there is frustration among some snp members and supporters, you know, she had this sort of smiley meeting with rishi sunak this week, and just talked about having the General Election is a de facto referendum on independence, but that might actually be the holyrood election the year after, there are some people in the movement to kind of think it is on the never and they are frustrated. {lii think it is on the never and they are frustrated. Think it is on the never and they are frustrated. , ,. , are frustrated. Of course, they have eve riaht are frustrated. Of course, they have every right to are frustrated. Of course, they have every right to be are frustrated. Of course, they have every right to be frustrated, are frustrated. Of course, they have every right to be frustrated, we i are frustrated. Of course, they have every right to be frustrated, we are | every right to be frustrated, we are trying to get an independent country, and it is an Impossible Task. , country, and it is an Impossible Task. Well, country, and it is an Impossible Task well. I country, and it is an Impossible Task. Well, i think| country, and it is an impossible i task. Well, | think it task. Impossible . Well, ithink it is possible. Task. Impossible . Well, ithink it is possible, that task. Impossible . Well, ithink it is possible, that was task. Impossible . Well, ithink it is possible, that was the task. Impossible . Well, ithink it is possible, that was the wrong i is possible, that was the wrong phrase of mine i think it is impossible, but it seems overwhelming in a way, and i think nicola is the right person, she has done a greatjob, and i think her canniness is what we will get there in the end, but if we went like a bowl in a china shop, it could damage us, so we have to be very careful about it, and we have to pursue what we want, what we feel our country needs, and that is interesting that these debates, it is interesting how keir said that is the Scottish Labour party, and i always thought it was the same party, and clearly there are different problems in scotland, as in wales and ireland, as there are in wales and ireland, as there are in england, and it is these problems. They are not actually being recognised for what they are. Caroline, one thing that some people might think is Mission Impossible that the newspapers talk about a lot, and some of your colleagues, is a comeback possibly from Boris Johnson, who was in the sunday times today with his financial relationship, where apparently he had a Credit Facility of £800,000 with somebody who was a distant member of his family. Is it possible, in your view, for him to come back . What would you say to colleagues who are trying to make it happen . I colleagues who are trying to make it ha en . , colleagues who are trying to make it ha. En . ,. , colleagues who are trying to make it ha en . ,. , 4 ,. , colleagues who are trying to make it hauen . ,. , ~ happen . I do not think you can legitimately happen . I do not think you can legitimately bring happen . I do not think you can legitimately bring back happen . I do not think you can j legitimately bring back another prime legitimately bring back another Prime Minister without edge election, i would caution colleagues to look election, i would caution colleagues to look at election, i would caution colleagues to look at the polls and decide whether to look at the polls and decide whether that is a good idea. Boris was a whether that is a good idea. Boris was a particular politician for a particular was a particular politician for a particular time, was a particular politician for a particulartime, he did was a particular politician for a particular time, he did a brilliant ob particular time, he did a brilliant job in particular time, he did a brilliant job in 2019, even keir acknowledged what a job in 2019, even keir acknowledged what a disastrous move that had been, what a disastrous move that had been. But what a disastrous move that had been, but we need sensible, grown up politicians been, but we need sensible, grown up politicians are going to tackle the issues politicians are going to tackle the issues that the country is facing with determination, i would argue with determination, i would argue with thought and with careful policies. With thought and with careful policies, and i think that is exactly policies, and i think that is exactly what rishi has put in place. That you exactly what rishi has put in place. That you say you were never a fan of mrjohnson, but what would you say you to your colleagues trying to bring him back . I you to your colleagues trying to bring him back . You to your colleagues trying to bring him back . I would say their actions are bring him back . I would say their actions are destabilising bring him back . I would say their actions are destabilising the i bring him back . I would say their. Actions are destabilising the party, we have actions are destabilising the party, we have 18 actions are destabilising the party, we have 18 months before the election. We have 18 months before the election, and we need to be together for that election, and we need to be together for that. ~ , election, and we need to be together for that. ~. ,. , ~ election, and we need to be together for that. ~. , ~ for that. What with the market say about boris for that. What with the market say about Boris Johnson for that. What with the market say about Boris Johnson coming for that. What with the market say about Boris Johnson coming back . L for that. What with the market say i about Boris Johnson coming back . 0h about borisjohnson coming back . Oh dear people would not have a clue what is dear people would not have a clue what is economic dear people would not have a clue what is Economic Policy dear people would not have a clue what is Economic Policy was, dear people would not have a clue what is Economic Policy was, and l what is Economic Policy was, and unfortunately what is Economic Policy was, and unfortunately running what is Economic Policy was, and unfortunately running the what is Economic Policy was, and| unfortunately running the country what is Economic Policy was, and i unfortunately running the country is not quite unfortunately running the country is not quite the unfortunately running the country is not quite the same unfortunately running the country is not quite the same as unfortunately running the country is not quite the same as running unfortunately running the country is not quite the same as running his. Not quite the same as running his own finances. Not quite the same as running his own finances, but not quite the same as running his own finances, but it not quite the same as running his own finances, but it seems not quite the same as running his own finances, but it seems therel not quite the same as running his i own finances, but it seems there are mysterious own finances, but it seems there are mysterious people own finances, but it seems there are mysterious people prepared own finances, but it seems there are mysterious people prepared to own finances, but it seems there are mysterious people prepared to fail. Mysterious people prepared to fail any budget mysterious people prepared to fail any budget gaps mysterious people prepared to fail any budget gaps. That mysterious people prepared to fail any budget gaps mysterious people prepared to fail any budget gaps. That could be quite hand for any budget gaps. That could be quite handy for the any budget gaps. That could be quite handy for the country, any budget gaps. That could be quite handy for the country, if any budget gaps. That could be quite handy for the country, if there any budget gaps. That could be quite handy for the country, if there were l handy for the country, if there were people mysteriously around with big pockets anyway, there are still fans of borisjohnson, but i think the view from our panel this morning has been quite clear. We have heard what they have had to say about keir starmer, and we want to hear from you. You can email us, use bbclaurak on social media, and if you go onto the bbc news website, youll see the livepage which has analysis during and after the programme. Its not easy for labour to work out how to cope with widespread strikes, but sorting them out is, of course, on the governments list, and the Train Strikes are perhaps the longest running and the most bitter. If it looked at one point this week like the government might come to an agreement with aslef, the train drivers unions, about their current strike action. But it didnt last. Here are the union bosses asked how close they are to a deal by mps this week. Here are the union bosses talking about it earlier on. We here are the union bosses talking about it earlier on. Here are the union bosses talking about it earlier on. We are further away than about it earlier on. We are further away than when about it earlier on. We are further away than when we about it earlier on. We are further away than when we started. About it earlier on. We are further away than when we started. Mr. About it earlier on. We are further away than when we started. Mr lynch . I wouldnt be away than when we started. Mr lynch . I wouldnt be able away than when we started. Mr lynch . I wouldnt be able to away than when we started. Mr lynch . I wouldnt be able to say. Away than when we started. Mr lynch . I wouldnt be able to say. It iwouldnt be able to say. It depends i wouldnt be able to say. It depends on discussions. We havent ot depends on discussions. We havent got an depends on discussions. We havent got an agreement. Until we get an agreement, we are not close to it really agreement, we are not close to it reall. �. , agreement, we are not close to it reall. �. ,. , agreement, we are not close to it reall. �. ,. ,. , really. Are we close to it or not . Lets ask really. Are we close to it or not . Lets ask the really. Are we close to it or not . Lets ask the transport really. Are we close to it or not . I lets ask the transport secretary mark harper. Could there be a deal this week . �. ,. ,. , this week . Dont want to put an artificial deadline this week . Dont want to put an artificial deadline on this week . Dont want to put an artificial deadline on it. This week . Dont want to put an artificial deadline on it. I this week . Dont want to put an artificial deadline on it. I have i artificial deadline on it. I have tried to change the tone of the discussions. I sat down with each of the Union Leaders, the three you saw in that clip, and tried to set up a way we could get to a solution. Myself and the rail minister have been facilitating negotiations, and i think it is right the detailed talks to thrash out a deal take place between network rail, the Train Operating Companies and the trade unions, and i hope they can do that. Do trade unions, and i hope they can do that. ,. ,. , trade unions, and i hope they can do that. Y. ,. ,. , that. Do you feel more cheery thouuh . That. Do you feel more cheery though . Because that. Do you feel more cheery though . Because last that. Do you feel more cheery though . Because last time i that. Do you feel more cheery| though . Because last time you that. Do you feel more cheery though . Because last time you were here, you are banging your head on one side of a brick wall and the unions were hanging their head on a brick wall. Taste unions were banging their head on a brick wall. ~. ,. ,. , brick wall. We have got talks under wa. Brick wall. We have got talks under way theres brick wall. We have got talks under way. Theres been brick wall. We have got talks under way. Theres been some brick wall. We have got talks under way. Theres been some detailed i way. Theres been some detailed talks this last week between the rmt and network rail and the Train Operating Companies. There are more talks to come and thats how ultimately you get a deal, and its important we get one both for the travelling public, people on the railway and also the taxpayer. Can ou railway and also the taxpayer. Can you confirm railway and also the taxpayer. Can you confirm what has been widely reported, that there is a higher pay offer that has been put on the table . I know you wont want to confirm specific detail, but can you confirm specific detail, but can you confirm our money has been put on the table . I confirm our money has been put on the table . ,. , the table . I made sure after i met the table . I made sure after i met the trade union the table . I made sure after i met the trade Union Leaders the table . I made sure after i met the trade Union Leaders there the table . I made sure after i met the trade Union Leaders there was | the table . I made sure after i met| the trade Union Leaders there was a better deal on the table for rail workers. , better deal on the table for rail workers. But better deal on the table for rail workers. But theresl workers. So, yes . But theres another side workers. So, yes . But theres another side to workers. So, yes . But theres another side to it workers. So, yes . But theres another side to it which workers. So, yes . But theres another side to it which is workers. So, yes . But theres another side to it which is its| another side to it which is its also important we get generational reform both on the maintenance side of the operation for network rail but also for the rail companies. I want a proper seven day railway where you dont have to depend on the goodwill of people turning up on their days off. I want a reliable railway seven days a week that passengers can count on, and that way we will be able to recover some of the reduction in volume of passengers we have seen since the pandemic. But passengers we have seen since the andemic. �. ,. , pandemic. But with that desire for reform and pandemic. But with that desire for reform and i pandemic. But with that desire for reform and i think pandemic. But with that desire for reform and i think what pandemic. But with that desire for reform and i think what you pandemic. But with that desire for reform and i think what you have l reform and i think what you have confirmed as more money on the table, again, are you optimistic there could be a deal this week . I hope there will be. Im not going to put an artificial timetable on it. As soon as you do that, you tend to end up with a bad deal. But both the companies and the rail unions are keen to reach an agreement, but we have got to see if they can hammer out the detail, but that is for them to do. I have facilitated an offer, i have brought the two sides together with the rail minister. Hes been having regular meetings to make sure we have a good process and its for the two sides now to hammer out a deal. I its for the two sides now to hammer out a deal. ~. , its for the two sides now to hammer out a deal. ,. , out a deal. I think our viewers will hear that you out a deal. I think our viewers will hear that you are out a deal. I think our viewers will hear that you are sounding hear that you are sounding optimistic. I dont one of the key areas in this dispute is driver operation on trains. That is something they have wanted the unions to accept, but how can it ever be safe for only a train driver to be on duty . What about a woman travelling alone late at night on a train or a disabled passenger who needs help . And the only member of staff quite rightly has to concentrate on driving the train . How can that be safe . How can that be safe . Firstly its not a how can that be safe . Firstly its rrot a new how can that be safe . Firstly its not a new thing, how can that be safe . Firstly its not a new thing, its how can that be safe . Firstly its not a new thing, its been how can that be safe . Firstly its i not a new thing, its been untrained since i was a teenager. But not a new thing, its been untrained since i was a teenager. Since i was a teenager. But there are concerns since i was a teenager. But there are concerns about since i was a teenager. But there are concerns about expanding. Since i was a teenager. But there | are concerns about expanding this and making it normal on Long Distance routes for example. 55� s and making it normal on Long Distance routes for example. 5596 of assen. Ers distance routes for example. 5596 of passengers already distance routes for example. 55 of passengers already travel distance routes for example. 55 of passengers already travel on distance routes for example. 55 of passengers already travel on routes| passengers already travel on routes where there are driver only operations. This is a perfectly sensible, safe reform. But i want to look at reform on a wider package. You have picked on one aspect of reform but the government has been clear we need reform overall. The detail of that reform, exactly which bits we are focusing on and what we get in return for the pay rise, that is for the unions and employers to hammer out. But reform is a non negotiable part of this deal. We have got to have generational reform, thats the way you free up the money which generates the savings which can pay for a pay rise for people who work on the railways thatis for people who work on the railways that is fair for the taxpayer. {line that is fair for the taxpayer. One area where that is fair for the taxpayer. One area where there that is fair for the taxpayer. One area where there may that is fair for the taxpayer. One area where there may be new strikes, the rail strikes have been running a long time but there could now be strikes in schools. You as a backbencher made concerns about the impact of children missing school through lockdown clear on many occasions. How could you as a government allow school strikes to happen where we might see the same thing, kids missing lessons . Taste thing, kids missing lessons . We dont thing, kids missing lessons . , dont know what will happen yet. We have seen speculation in newspapers. There is a ballot, it looks like there will be action. In there is a ballot, it looks like there will be action. There is a ballot, it looks like there will be action. In fact the only ballot there will be action. In fact the only ballot we there will be action. In fact the only ballot we have there will be action. In fact the only ballot we have had there will be action. In fact the only ballot we have had so there will be action. In fact the only ballot we have had so far| there will be action. In fact the | only ballot we have had so far is there will be action. In fact the i only ballot we have had so far is a union where they didnt reach the threshold to have strikes. If there are strikes in schools, that would be incredibly regrettable. Thats why the government has been keen to talk and listen to trade unions. My colleague the education secretary sat down this week with the trade unions to set out the evidence the government will put forward before the pay review bodies to listen to the pay review bodies to listen to the conservative trade unions. We want to have a sensible dialogue. We have put extra money into schools. There was a pay deal for teachers that we accepted the independent pay review bodies, and that we think is the right process rather than industrial dispute. I want to make sure children dont have their education damaged. They did suffer through covid through not being in school and we know the consequences of that. ~. ,. ,. , of that. Would it be fair on children of that. Would it be fair on children and of that. Would it be fair on children and parents of that. Would it be fair on children and parents if of that. Would it be fair on children and parents if teachers went on strike . I children and parents if teachers went on strike . Children and parents if teachers went on strike . I think it would be regrettable went on strike . I think it would be regrettable if went on strike . I think it would be regrettable if there went on strike . I think it would be regrettable if there were went on strike . I think it would be regrettable if there were a went on strike . I think it would be regrettable if there were a strike. | regrettable if there were a strike. I dont want to see education disrupted at all. We want to see them in school being taught by our fantastic teachers and led by those head teachers in schools, thats what i want to see continue. The right way to resolve disputes is to have those discussions. Right way to resolve disputes is to have those discussions. Some of our viewers might have those discussions. Some of our viewers might think have those discussions. Some of our viewers might think its have those discussions. Some of our viewers might think its a have those discussions. Some of our viewers might think its a bit have those discussions. Some of our viewers might think its a bit late viewers might think its a bit late actually after strikes have been up and running in many sectors but i want to ask about another important subject we have talked a lot about this morning and to keir starmer, about the change to the law the Scottish Government has made, which will make it possible for people officially to change their gender at the age of 16. Would you like to see the age of 16. Would you like to see the westminster government that you are part of block that legislation . The Prime Minister set out clearly. The Prime Minister set out clearly. The decision is for the government, technically a decision for the scottish secretary, and we are waiting to see detailed legal advice about the impact of that legislation on the rest of the uk. As came out in your interview, what we have to do when any piece of legislation is passed by the Scottish Parliament is look at the impact on the wider legislative picture in the uk, so we are waiting for the detailed legal advice and then the government will take a decision based on that. And i take a decision based on that. And i understand take a decision based on that. And i understand that take a decision based on that. And i understand that advice take a decision based on that. And i understand that advice will land with the government tomorrow, but on principle do you as an individual politician think that it is right that people should be able officially to change their gender at the age of 16 without a medical diagnosis . The age of 16 without a medical dianosis . ,. ,. ,. , diagnosis . That was a decision the Scottish Government diagnosis . That was a decision the Scottish Government took. Diagnosis . That was a decision the Scottish Government took. Im diagnosis . That was a decision the i Scottish Government took. Im asking ou on Scottish Government took. Im asking you on principle Scottish Government took. Im asking you on principle though. Scottish government took. Im asking you on principle though. We Scottish Government took. Im asking you on principle though. We are Scottish Government took. Im asking you on principle though. We are not l you on principle though. We are not ro osina you on principle though. We are not proposing to you on principle though. We are not proposing to make you on principle though. We are not proposing to make those you on principle though. We are not proposing to make those changes. You on principle though. We are not| proposing to make those changes for england, but what we have to do is make a decision about whether that legislation impacts on legislation elsewhere in the uk, and one of those pieces of legislation for example is the equality act and thats why we need a Detailed Analysis of that. Thats the information the government needs before it can take a decision. We are conscious of the decision has been taken by the Scottish Parliament, we have to look at the impact on the rest of the uk and thats what we are waiting to see. We are doing it carefully because these are subjects which are best approached with care. There are conflicting rights involved in this discussion and thats why i think it is sensible for the government to take the decision in a careful and thoughtful way. But take the decision in a careful and thoughtful way take the decision in a careful and thoughtful way. But your colleague caroline nokes, thoughtful way. But your colleague caroline nokes, an thoughtful way. But your colleague caroline nokes, an experienced thoughtful way. But your colleague | caroline nokes, an experienced mp and former minister herself, she said a few minutes ago people in your party were using this issue to stir things up your party were using this issue to stirthings up in your party were using this issue to stir things up in an inappropriate way, what do you say to that . I think the government has been careful about how we talk about this. There are conflicting rights here, there are trans people who have suffered discrimination and want their rights respected, but equally i have listened very carefully to the concerns that many women have had about worries they have about risks to their safety. I heard brian cox and you just talking about some of the things jk rowling about some of the thingst rowling said. She said some very reasonable things people are entitled to say and she has been treated very badly in response, and i think this discussion is best we talk about it thoughtfully and carefully, not rushing to a conclusion but waiting to see the detailed legal advice and then taking a careful thought through decision which we will then announce. , announce. Some will say that if you t to announce. Some will say that if you try to block announce. Some will say that if you try to block it. Announce. Some will say that if you try to block it, you announce. Some will say that if you try to block it, you might announce. Some will say that if you try to block it, you might end announce. Some will say that if you try to block it, you might end up i try to block it, you might end up with a huge constitutional bust up with a huge constitutional bust up with the snp and the Scottish Government but we have run out of time for now. Mark harper, thank you for coming in this morning. As it comes towards the end of the programme, time has slipped by, lets remind ourselves how we started this morning, asking if kier starmer is ready to be your next Prime Minister. Starmer is ready to be your next Prime Minister. There is nothing worse than Prime Minister. There is nothing worse than being Prime Minister. There is nothing worse than being in Prime Minister. There is nothing worse than being in opposition, | Prime Minister. There is nothing | worse than being in opposition, i have been in opposition all the time we have been in parliament. That means we dont change lives. We need to be a party capable of going into power. To be a party capable of going into ower. ,. ,. , power. Kier starmer a few minutes auo. A power. Kier starmer a few minutes ago a final power. Kier starmer a few minutes ago. A final word power. Kier starmer a few minutes ago. A final word from power. Kier starmer a few minutes ago. A final word from our power. Kier starmer a few minutes ago. A final word from our panel. I ago. A final word from our panel. Caroline, do you think we now know what the next general Election Campaign will look like . We will have the conservatives grappling with complicated issues and finding it hard to keep on the agenda, and labour increasing in confidence. I dont think we know what it will look like. I think labour are still very quiet on the issues they will campaign on, we havent seen their policies yet. There is a great raft of people who havent made their mind up yet in the country. What is true to say is that oppositions do not win elections, governments lose them so my hope over the coming months is that we hear more from sensible voices like mark harper who is always very measured in what he says. I want to hear less from those who are seeking to sow division and discord and want change and upheaval just for the sake of it. Just for the sake of it. Howard, do ou think just for the sake of it. Howard, do you think any just for the sake of it. Howard, do you think any politicians just for the sake of it. Howard, do you think any politicians yet just for the sake of it. Howard, do you think any politicians yet have | you think any politicians yet have been really clear and honest about what needs to happen to the economy . If i were the opposition, i would be keeping if i were the opposition, i would be keeping my powder dry at the moment because keeping my powder dry at the moment because there is a huge amount of uncertainty. We dont know how inflation uncertainty. We dont know how inflation will go. The world bank has said inflation will go. The world bank has said we are going to move into a much has said we are going to move into a much slower has said we are going to move into a much slower global economy. There is a war much slower global economy. There is a war on much slower global economy. There is a war on which can have unpredictable consequences. Sol would unpredictable consequences. Sol would be unpredictable consequences. Sol would be cautious about what i would say i would be cautious about what i would say i would would be cautious about what i would say i would do in the election. Do ou say i would do in the election. You think say i would do in the election. Tip you think taxes will keep going up whoever wins because of the situation we are in . I whoever wins because of the situation we are in . Whoever wins because of the situation we are in . I think so because the situation we are in . I think so because the flexibility situation we are in . I think so because the flexibility of situation we are in . I think so because the flexibility of the l because the flexibility of the government has got whilst meeting a fiscally government has got whilst meeting a fiscally stable position over a medium fiscally stable position over a medium term is very small. That miaht be medium term is very small. That might be bad medium term is very small. That might be bad news medium term is very small. inst might be bad news for viewers of pay packets. Brian, can you close us with something to look forward to . The new series of succession is coming soon. The new series of succession is coming soon the new series of succession is coming soon. The new series of succession is cominu soon. ,. ,. ,. , coming soon. No, i have had to sign so many nondisclosure coming soon. No, i have had to signj so many nondisclosure agreements, im so many nondisclosure agreements, im not so many nondisclosure agreements, tm not allowed so many nondisclosure agreements, tm not allowed to so many nondisclosure agreements, im not allowed to say so many nondisclosure agreements, im not allowed to say a so many nondisclosure agreements, im not allowed to say a thing. So many nondisclosure agreements, im not allowed to say a thing. My. Im not allowed to say a thing. My ob im not allowed to say a thing. My job is im not allowed to say a thing. My job is in im not allowed to say a thing. My job is inieopardy im not allowed to say a thing. My job is injeopardy if im not allowed to say a thing. My job is injeopardy if i im not allowed to say a thing. My job is injeopardy if i do im not allowed to say a thing. My job is injeopardy if i do is im not allowed to say a thing. My job is injeopardy if i do is it job is in eopardy if i do is it aood job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . Job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . I job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . I think job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . I think its job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . I think its all| job is injeopardy if i do is it good though . I think its all good and it will be good though . I think its all good and it will be pretty good though . I think its all good and it will be pretty exciting, good though . I think its all good and it will be pretty exciting, but| and it will be pretty exciting, but that is and it will be pretty exciting, but that is it and it will be pretty exciting, but that is it. And it will be pretty exciting, but that is it. ,. ,. And it will be pretty exciting, but thatisit. ,. , that is it. That is it also from us this morning that is it. That is it also from us this morning. Thank that is it. That is it also from us this morning. Thank you that is it. That is it also from us this morning. Thank you for this morning. Thank you for coming in. In the last seven days we have heard on the programme why the Prime Minister and the Leader Of The Opposition think they deserve your vote. Kier starmer increasingly seems to believe he can win, focused on using this chance that the tory turmoil has given him and his party, and whether or not people are up for bold reforms of the Health Service. Labour is carefully trying to piece together its pitch to you which will grow over the coming months. Poll leads can disappear in a flash. Some of sir keir� s critics on his own side reckon hes not grabbing the oppotunity firmly enough, and for all the angst, rishi sunak wontjust chuck it all away without a fight. The General Election is both near and far. With a clash coming over the consitution, and our culture, this time next week we hope to speak to Nicola Sturgeon, the snp chief, in the next of our leader interviews. Until then, please let us know whats on your mind in all the usual ways, and you can catch up with anything you missed on iplayer as always. Until then, thanks for watching, have a great week, and ill see you next time. This is bbc news broadcasting in the uk and around the globe. Im lewis vaughanjones and these are the latest headlines. Dozens of people have died in a plane crash in nepal. The aircraft, which had 72 people onboard, came down while trying to land near the tourist town of pokhara. A seven Year Old Girl has life threatening injuries after a suspected drive by shooting outside a Memorial Service in london. President biden declares a state of emergency in california after it has been hit by a succession of severe winter storms leaving 25 million residents under a flood watch. Rescue workers in the ukrainian city of dnipro search for survivors