Or corky from the Night Manager, youll certainly recognsie this famous face. Tom hollander and his fellow actor will keen on stage, on putin and russias billionaires. And with me the real life logan roy. Actor brian cox is back after the huge success of the drama succession. Rain newton smith, the boss of the cbi battling to save it, and salma shah, tory insider and former adviser at the home office. Morning, morning. Promises, promises the conservatives made some huge ones in the past on imigration and they simply havent been kept. Before we talk about that lets take a look at some of the front pages. Theres no one story that dominates today. The sun looks ahead to holly willoughby� s return to the Tv Sofa Tomorrrow after all that drama. The mirror suggests auntie holly, claiming the bbc is trying to poach her. Who knows . The sunday times features one of our Talking Points today whats going on at the cbi, suggesting the former boss tony danker is going to sue. And our main conversation, migration, today on the front page of the Sunday Telegraph Asylum Seekers ordered to share a room. We will talk to the Immigration Minister about that in a couple of my opinions time. Welcome to all of you. Brian, you speak your mind, like logan roy, you have been previously outspoken on this governments approach to immigration, why . Governments approach to immigration, why . Governments approach to immiuration, wh . ~ ~. , immigration, why . Well, i think that immigration immigration, why . Well, i think that immigration has immigration, why . Well, i think that immigration has been immigration, why . Well, i think that immigration has been a immigration, why . Well, i think that immigration has been a problem immigration, why . Well, i think that. Immigration has been a problem that, we, really we are suffering from things that we have done in the past, and that is why we have the Immigration Problem we have. You know, the stetle of The Middle East and what is happened over the years, and what is happened over the years, and i think it is, we are finally reaping what we sow and i think that is the real root of the problem. Unfortunately you will get these gangs who will exploit that, and exploit it for the worse, and you also have people who are genuinely trying to escape from something which is pretty horrific, and the world is, the great irish playwright Shaun O Casey Said is in a terrible state of chaos and it is the, it is the actually as a result of that chaos, that we have the problem with immigration, a and of course this government has not been able to deal with it. It should have been able to deal with it but it is difficult for any government. 50 deal with it but it is difficult for any government. Deal with it but it is difficult for any government. So there a limit to what they can any government. So there a limit to what they can do. Any government. So there a limit to what they can do. Absolutely. Any government. So there a limit to what they can do. Absolutely. I any government. So there a limit to | what they can do. Absolutely. I have talked to five what they can do. Absolutely. I have talked to five former what they can do. Absolutely. I have talked to five former home talked to five former Home Secretaries who have made that point. Said there are things we can go but globalforces point. Said there are things we can go but Global Forces are so huge but on things the government can role control, it looks like a mess why . I think the difficulty here session the politics of the debate round immigration is not nuanced and it doesnt immigration is not nuanced and it doesnt reflect the reality of what immigration actually is, brian has talked immigration actually is, brian has talked about the Global Forces, that is a big talked about the Global Forces, that is a big impact, then there is the process is a big impact, then there is the process of is a big impact, then there is the process of who is coming, why are they coming process of who is coming, why are they coming and using these routes which they coming and using these routes which the they coming and using these routes which the government can have some control which the government can have some control over. Which the government can have some control over, some, not a lot. And also control over, some, not a lot. And also for control over, some, not a lot. And also for the control over, some, not a lot. And also for the politics of it there is the toxicity round the debate of the consequences of migration so there are questions about changing community, about straying on Public Services, community, about straying on Public Services, all community, about straying on Public Services, all of them are legitimate, there is not a single policy legitimate, there is not a single policy that will be able to capture and correct everything that is going wrong and correct everything that is going wrong in and correct everything that is going wrong in that process. You and correct everything that is going wrong in that process. Wrong in that process. You said it is not nuanced wrong in that process. You said it is not nuanced enough. Wrong in that process. You said it is not nuanced enough. You wrong in that process. You said it is not nuanced enough. You werei wrong in that process. You said it i is not nuanced enough. You were an adviser to sage id javid, do you any politicians should explain that . I do. It is decades long this issue round do. It is decades long this issue round migration, people have used it. Round migration, people have used it all round migration, people have used it. All Political Parties have used it. All Political Parties have used it to create, you know, wins, and, making it to create, you know, wins, and, making it it to create, you know, wins, and, making it about number, i think has been making it about number, i think has been a making it about number, i think has been a real making it about number, i think has been a real tragedy, making it about number, i think has been a realtragedy, i making it about number, i think has been a real tragedy, i am sure rain is going been a real tragedy, i am sure rain is going to been a real tragedy, i am sure rain is going to talk about that, that nuance is going to talk about that, that nuance between economic migration and cultural migration, that has never and cultural migration, that has never been properly Bernie Ecclestone mored. Never been properly Bernie Ecclestone mored. , ecclestone mored. There is something stran. E ecclestone mored. There is something strange going ecclestone mored. There is something strange going on. Ecclestone mored. There is something strange going on, the ecclestone mored. There is something strange going on, the government strange going on, the government says we have to bring the numbers down but they are going way up because the economy demands it. Yes. Because the economy demands it. Yes, look, i think because the economy demands it. Yes, look, i think as because the economy demands it. Yes, look, i think as salma because the economy demands it. Yes, look, i think as salma said, we need to distinguish look, i think as salma said, we need to distinguish between look, i think as salma said, we need to distinguish between migration, i to distinguish between migration, economic to distinguish between migration, economic migrants to distinguish between migration, economic migrants and to distinguish between migration, economic migrants and asylum i to distinguish between migration, economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees and economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees and i economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees and i think economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees and i think the economic migrants and Asylum Seekers and refugees and i think the problem. And refugees and i think the problem is in the and refugees and i think the problem is in the public and refugees and i think the problem is in the Public Discourse and refugees and i think the problem is in the Public Discourse and and refugees and i think the problem is in the Public Discourse and when i is in the Public Discourse and when politicians is in the Public Discourse and when politicians talk is in the Public Discourse and when politicians talk about is in the Public Discourse and when politicians talk about it, is in the Public Discourse and when politicians talk about it, it is in the Public Discourse and when politicians talk about it, it all politicians talk about it, it all gets politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed up politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed up and politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed up and i politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed up and i think politicians talk about it, it all. Gets mixed up and i think when politicians talk about it, it all gets mixed up and i think when i talk to gets mixed up and i think when i talk to business, gets mixed up and i think when i talk to business, what gets mixed up and i think when i talk to business, what they gets mixed up and i think when i talk to business, what they say i gets mixed up and i think when ii talk to business, what they say is they need talk to business, what they say is they need people talk to business, what they say is they need people to talk to business, what they say is they need people to help talk to business, what they say is they need people to help grow. They need people to help grow business. They need people to help grow business, they they need people to help grow business, they are they need people to help grow business, they are trying they need people to help grow business, they are trying to i they need people to help grow business, they are trying to create obs business, they are trying to create jobs and business, they are trying to create jobs and they business, they are trying to create jobs and they cant business, they are trying to create jobs and they cant find business, they are trying to create jobs and they cant find people business, they are trying to create jobs and they cant find people to| jobs and they cant find people to do the jobs and they cant find people to do the innovation jobs and they cant find people to do the innovation that jobs and they cant find people to do the innovation that they jobs and they cant find people toi do the innovation that they want, and if do the innovation that they want, and if we do the innovation that they want, and if we think do the innovation that they want, and if we think about do the innovation that they want, and if we think about it, do the innovation that they want, and if we think about it, you do the innovation that they want, i and if we think about it, you know, work and if we think about it, you know, work visa. And if we think about it, you know, work visa. 38 and if we think about it, you know, work visa, 38 of and if we think about it, you know, work visa, 38 of those and if we think about it, you know, work visa, 38 of those are and if we think about it, you know, work visa, 38 of those are for. Work visa, 38 of those are for health work visa, 38 of those are for health and work visa, 38 of those are for health and social work visa, 38 of those are for health and social care, work visa, 38 of those are for health and social care, we work visa, 38 of those are for| health and social care, we need people. Health and social care, we need people. We health and social care, we need people. We have health and social care, we need people, we have seen health and social care, we need people, we have seen over health and social care, we need people, we have seen over thei health and social care, we need people, we have seen over the past few years people, we have seen over the past few years how people, we have seen over the past few years how important people, we have seen over the past few years how Important Health people, we have seen over the pasti few years how Important Health and the health few years how Important Health and the health of few years how Important Health and the health of workers few years how Important Health and the health of workers is few years how Important Health and the health of workers is to few years how Important Health and the health of workers is to our the health of workers is to our economy, the health of workers is to our economy, and the health of workers is to our economy, and on the health of workers is to our economy, and on the the health of workers is to our economy, and on the other. The health of workers is to our. Economy, and on the other hand the health of workers is to our economy, and on the other hand we also see, economy, and on the other hand we also see, we economy, and on the other hand we also see, we need economy, and on the other hand we also see, we need to economy, and on the other hand we also see, we need to have economy, and on the other hand we also see, we need to have safe economy, and on the other hand we also see, we need to have safe and| also see, we need to have safe and legal also see, we need to have safe and legal routes also see, we need to have safe and legal routes where also see, we need to have safe and legal routes where people also see, we need to have safe and legal routes where people who also see, we need to have safe and legal routes where people who arei legal routes where people who are coming legal routes where people who are coming here legal routes where people who are coming here to legal routes where people who are coming here to seek legal routes where people who are coming here to seek refuge, legal routes where people who are coming here to seek refuge, and l legal routes where people who are l coming here to seek refuge, and are asylumseekers coming here to seek refuge, and are Asylum Seekers can coming here to seek refuge, and are Asylum Seekers can have coming here to seek refuge, and are Asylum Seekers can have an coming here to seek refuge, and are| Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of the Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of the things Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of the things think Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of the things think is Asylum Seekers can have an avenue, and one of the things think is also. And one of the things think is also important and one of the things think is also important is and one of the things think is also important is when and one of the things think is also important is when you and one of the things think is also important is when you are and one of the things think is also important is when you are waitingi important is when you are waiting for your important is when you are waiting for your status, important is when you are waiting for your status, to important is when you are waiting for your status, to determine for your status, to determine whether for your status, to determine whether you for your status, to determine whether you are for your status, to determine whether you are a for your status, to determine whether you are a refugee i for your status, to determine whether you are a refugee ori for your status, to determine whether you are a refugee or not, you should whether you are a refugee or not, you should be whether you are a refugee or not, you should be allowed whether you are a refugee or not, you should be allowed to whether you are a refugee or not, you should be allowed to work whether you are a refugee or not, | you should be allowed to work and contribute you should be allowed to work and contribute to you should be allowed to work and contribute to our you should be allowed to work and contribute to our society, you should be allowed to work and contribute to our society, and you should be allowed to work and contribute to our society, and that| contribute to our society, and that is something contribute to our society, and that is something that contribute to our society, and that is something that businesses contribute to our society, and that is something that businesses and i contribute to our society, and that. Is something that businesses and we have also is something that businesses and we have also said is something that businesses and we have also said is is something that businesses and we have also said is really is something that businesses and we have also said is really important. I have also said is really important. Maybe have also said is really important. Maybe we have also said is really important. Maybe we will have also said is really important. Maybe we will get have also said is really important. Maybe we will get to have also said is really important. Maybe we will get to that have also said is really important. Maybe we will get to that with maybe we will get to that with robertjenrick in a few minutes. A Spoiler Alert for you we will be talking about succession finale, if you havent seen it beer bear that in mind. But first, the main business. Fed up, the governments promises to cut immigration, or fed up that politicians wont make a positive case for people coming to the uk. Well talk to the minister in charge in a sec but first lets remind ourselves of the facts. You cant have missed this. Stop the boats now. Turn back the boats. It stop the boats now. Turn back the boats it is stop the boats now. Turn back the boats. It is time stop the boats now. Turn back the boats. It is time to stop the boats now. Turn back the boats. It is time to tackle stop the boats now. Turn back the boats. It is time to tackle the boats. It is time to tackle the small boats. It is time to tackle the small boats. Boats. It is time to tackle the small boats. How is small boats. Stop the boats. How is that going . . Small boats. Stop the boats. How is that going . . 2020 small boats. Stop the boats. How is that going . . 2020 round small boats. Stop the boats. How is that going . . 2020 round 8,500 small boats. Stop the boats. How is that going . . 2020 round 8,500 people crossed the channel in small boats but in 2022 it was more than five times that, more than 45,000. And the asylum claims they make are taking longer than ever to get sorted out. Look back to 2010, there were about 7,000 people stuck in the system. But now, it is 172,000 instead. Well, robertjenrick is here as promised and to be clear, we are going to start by talking about Asylum Seekers and later we will talk about the numbers of people who are coming here legally. As Rain Newton Smith said, they are not allowed to work and therefore the taxpayer supports putting them up and looking after them. I want to show viewers an image they might not have seen and i would like you to explain what is going on here . I think you are showing photos of a hotel in pimlico where some migrants were asked to be housed. They had claimed destitution, saying they had no funds, they didnt have family or friends they could live with, and therefore, we the government are under a legal duty to support them, and so the government offered them to stay in this hotel, and some initially declined, saying they didnt want to Share Hotel Rooms as i understand it, but, ithink didnt want to Share Hotel Rooms as i understand it, but, i think we asked them to share rooms to save Monetary Policy for the taxpayer. As anyone who is genuinely destitute would accept that offer and i believe almost all of the migrants in question did. In believe almost all of the migrants in question did. In question did. In the end what haened in question did. In the end what happened they in question did. In the end what happened they were in question did. In the end what happened they were asked in question did. In the end what happened they were asked to i in question did. In the end what happened they were asked to share four to a room. They barricaded themselves outside, caused disruption for People Living in the area and you can see for them it wasnt very pleasant and for people in that posh part of london it wasnt very pleasant, the home office left 40 men to sleep outside on a London Street for two nights. That is not right. As i understand what happened here, was that these migrants who had themselves said they were destitute, they had nowhere to stay, we had offered them a safe bed, with board and lodgings, in a good quality hotel, in central london, yes, some had to share with other people, these are single adult male, i dont think that is unreasonable. We want to reduce the cost to the taxpayer, some people said that wasnt good enough and they wanted their own bedrooms, and they wanted their own bedrooms, and the home office took the perfectly reasonable view that we have got to look after the taxpayer here, and if you are genuinely destitute you would accept that and common sense prevailed and i think almost all of the migrants in question accepted the migrants in question accepted the accommodation. I5 the migrants in question accepted the accommodation. Is it the migrants in question accepted the accommodation. The accommodation. Is it now the governments the accommodation. Is it now the governments policy the accommodation. Is it now the governments policy at the accommodation. Is it now the governments policy at 395 the accommodation. Is it now the | governments policy at 395 hotels round country that are currently hosing Asylum Seekers in situations like this, is it your policy to tell people they from the to share four to a room . To a room . No, that is not right. But what we to a room . No, that is not right. But what we are to a room . No, that is not right. But what we are saying to a room . No, that is not right. But what we are saying is to a room . No, that is not right. But what we are saying is that i to a room . No, that is not right. | but what we are saying is that we want to reduce dependence on hotels the, we dont want to be using hotels at all, these are taking away valuable assets for the local business community, for society, you know, people weedsings, and personal events have had to be cancelled because of that, but where we are using them, it is right deget good Value For Money for the taxpayer. I am confused. Single Value For Money for the taxpayer. I am confused. Single adult Value For Money for the taxpayer. I am confused. Single adult males i Value For Money for the taxpayer. I l am confused. Single adult males can share a room. Am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and it am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and it is am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and it is legal am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and it is legalto am confused. Single adult males can share a room, and it is legal to do i share a room, and it is legal to do so, which will obviously depend on the size of the the accommodation, we will ask people to do that, i think that is a completely fair and reasonable approach. But think that is a completely fair and reasonable approach. Reasonable approach. But in this case. Reasonable approach. But in this case the reasonable approach. But in this case. The longterm reasonable approach. But in this case. The longterm answer, l reasonable approach. But in this| case. The longterm answer, if reasonable approach. But in this l case. The longterm answer, if i miaht case. The longterm answer, if i might say case. The longterm answer, if i might say is case. The longterm answer, if i might say is not case. The longterm answer, if i might say is not to case. The longterm answer, if i might say is not to debate case. The longterm answer, if i might say is not to debate the might say is not to debate the symptom of the problem but to reduce the number of people coming across the number of people coming across the channel in the first place. But the channel in the first place. But the symptom of the problem is real for those people, and it is very real for communities right around the country, around in that case, you asked them to share four to a room, they refused and in the end they were allowed to share two to a room. That is the specifics. I am not sure that room. That is the specifics. I am not sure that is room. That is the specifics. I am not sure that is correct. Room. That is the specifics. I am not sure that is correct. The not sure that is correct. The broader not sure that is correct. The broader point not sure that is correct. The broader point is not sure that is correct. The broader point is people are worried about what is going on, whether they look at that and think we are asking people to live in inhumane conditions. People to live in inhumane conditions. ,. ,. , conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions i conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions. Iwill conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions. I will never conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions. I will never put conditions. Those were not inhumane conditions. I will never put the conditions. I will never put the interests of migrants above nose of the British Public, that is my duty as Immigration Minister and of course we will treat people legally and decently at all times but i have to reduce reliance on hotels because thatis to reduce reliance on hotels because that is taking away value rebellion assets from our country. And cost cog billions of pounds. Is but assets from our country. And cost cog billions of pounds. Is cog billions of pounds. Is but this is a oint cog billions of pounds. Is but this is a point of cog billions of pounds. Is but this is a point of connor cog billions of pounds. Is but this is a point of connor people cog billions of pounds. Is but this is a point of connor people right l is a point of connor people right now and our viewers have been in touch. Alana in dorset, wants to know how you can justify that with no consultation to the local community, another viewer said there are safety concerns about putting a large group of single men, suddenly, into a community, and you wouldnt have this expensive problem, if the system to get these peoples claims sorted out was work, and the system is certainly not working, it is taking longer and longer to sort these claims out. There are 175,000 cases, in the backlog, how have you allowed that to happen . Allowed that to happen . Firstly i do think all these allowed that to happen . Firstly i do think all these new allowed that to happen . Firstly i do think all these new forms allowed that to happen . Firstly i do think all these new forms of think all these new forms of accommodation are the right approach because we cant be reliant on hotels, we have to use things like barges, or disused army base, we also cant allow the uk to be perceived to be a soft touch. I have spent the last week visiting European Countries like france and italy and those in north africa and all European Countries are grappling with the same challenge, how do you accommodate large numbers of mostly economic migrants, how do you deal with their cases in an efficient manner, on the backlog. That is oint ou manner, on the backlog. That is point you are manner, on the backlog. That is point you are not. Manner, on the backlog. That is point you are not. The manner, on the backlog. That is point you are not. The prime point you are not. The Prime Minister. Point you are not. The Prime Minister, home point you are not. The Prime Minister, Home Secretary i point you are not. The prime. Minister, Home Secretary and point you are not. The prime i minister, Home Secretary and i put in place a plan last year and that is bearing fruit already. We are doubling the number of case worker, we are stripping out some of the unnecessary bureaucracy and streamlining the system, but the Asylum System is riddled with abuse. You have been in charge of it for 13 years. Ma; you have been in charge of it for 13 ears. G. , , you have been in charge of it for 13 ears. G ,. , you have been in charge of it for 13 ears. G ,. , years. My ob is to be honest with the ublic years. My job is to be honest with the public and years. My job is to be honest with the public and the years. My job is to be honest with the public and the way years. My job is to be honest with the public and the way to years. My job is to be honest with the public and the way to tackle i the public and the way to tackle that, is by changing fundamentally the way we handle asylum, and that is what we are doing with our illegal migration bill, that has a different premise to the old system, says if you come here illegally, you will be here for days or week, in detained accommodation, you will be returned home, if it is safe to do so, to a european country for example like albania or to a safe country like rwanda, that will create the deterrent we need, it will break the Business Model of the People Smugglers and it will stop the system coming under pressure. That is what you hope will happen but there is not concrete evidence that will happen, we talked it with the Home Secretary but there is scepticism your scheme to rwanda will make this problem go away. You sa dee will make this problem go away. Gm. Say deep scepticism but this has worked in australia, the one country. Worked in australia, the one country worked in australia, the one count , . , country. Very different geography. I can assure country. Very different geography. I can assure you country. Very different geography. I can assure you having country. Very different geography. I can assure you having spoken i country. Very different geography. I can assure you having spoken to i i can assure you having spoken to counterparts in europe, there is interest in what we are doing, all European Countries are grappling with a european, a global migration challenge, i have been in north africa, where there are Tens Of Thousands of people who are waiting to make the crossing from countries like libya and tunisia, this is a massive european challenge, we are taking very robust steps and i think we have probably the most comprehensive plan of any of the major European Countries. And you have a plan and we will see if it works and a lot of our viewers question whether it will work, we will see. Lets talk about a different aspect of immigration. It feels like a longtime ago since the conservative promise to get net migration down to Tens Of Thousands. The latest figure this morning was at a record level of more than 600,000 people. Net migration is the difference between people who arrive and those who leave. Is it remotely realistic to think you are ever going to get it down to hundred thousand. . Going to get it down to hundred thousand. ~. , going to get it down to hundred thousand. ~. , thousand. . We have said and the Prime Minister thousand. . We have said and the Prime Minister reiterated thousand. . We have said and the Prime Minister reiterated this, i thousand. . We have said and the Prime Minister reiterated this, we want to see net migration come down. Net migration is far too high today. For a number of important reasons. Firstly, it is placing serious pressure on housing, on Public Services and our ability to successfully integrate people into the country. Secondly, because we want businesses to be in the first instance investing in british workers and in technology and automation which drives productivity, notjust reaching for the easy lever of foreign labour. But is it realistic that you might ever get it under 100,000 . I dont think targets ever get it under 100,000 . I dont think targets like ever get it under 100,000 . I dont think targets like that ever get it under 100,000 . I dont think targets like that are think targets like that are particularly helpful. But think targets like that are particularly helpful. Think targets like that are articularl helful. , particularly helpful. But your party had won for particularly helpful. But your party had won for more particularly helpful. But your party had won for more than particularly helpful. But your party had won for more than ten particularly helpful. But your party had won for more than ten years. | had won for more than ten years. Behaviours are constantly changing. The key thing that we have done in recent years, which distinguishes us from previous governments and Home Secretaries who have made responses, is that by leaving the european union, by taking back control, we have the lever is now at our disposal to make these changes. That is the Point Disposal to make these changes. That is the point. You have used these levers and what has happened, for good or ill, is that net migration has gone up and up and up. Our viewers are well aware of this. Let me finish the question. John says, please ask about the conservative encouragement of immigration of students. The increase in students is far greater than the number coming by boats. The focus seems confused. He is right, isnt it . You are going to say i want immigration to come down, but actually, for good orfor ill, because to come down, but actually, for good or for ill, because of the needs of the economy, you have left and many more students and you are bringing in many more seasonal workers, the list of short occupations, is getting longer and longer. It is confused. Getting longer and longer. It is confused, isnt getting longer and longer. It is confused, isnt it . Getting longer and longer. It is confused, isnt it . It getting longer and longer. It 3 confused, isnt it . It is right to completely distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. We are taking the most robust action of any european country to stop the small boats. We cannot have People Smugglers to determine who comes into the country. On legal migration, as a result of the points based system that this government created, we now have the ability to show some flexibility where there are skills shortages. That has its limits because there is a responsibility on business and industry to invest in the workforce and it gives us for the very first time the ability to change things when we need to. That time the ability to change things when we need to. Time the ability to change things when we need to. ,. ,. , when we need to. That has meant that net migration when we need to. That has meant that net migration has when we need to. That has meant that net migration has gone when we need to. That has meant that net migration has gone up. When we need to. That has meant that net migration has gone up. Let when we need to. That has meant that net migration has gone up. Let me i net migration has gone up. Let me Cive Ou Net Migration has gone up. Let me give you an net migration has gone up. Let me give you an example. Net migration has gone up. Let me give you an example. We net migration has gone up. Let me give you an example. We have i net migration has gone up. Let me l give you an example. We have taken serious action to tackle the dependence of students. There are over 100,000 dependence on those students who come to the uk for Short Courses who are in the uk. They are placing pressure on housing and Public Services and we have made and Public Services and we have made a change, last month, to say that you will not be able to bring those dependents into the country any more. That is a tangible change which will make material difference. That will have a very Significant Impact on the numbers . I that will have a very Significant Impact on the numbers . I think it will. At impact on the numbers . I think it will at the impact on the numbers . I think it will. At the very impact on the numbers . I think it will. At the very least impact on the numbers . I think it will. At the very least isnt impact on the numbers . I think it will. At the very least isnt it i will. At the very least isnt it bafflina will. At the very least isnt it baffling for will. At the very least isnt it baffling for people will. At the very least isnt it baffling for people watching | will. At the very least isnt it i baffling for people watching this morning who have heard Conservative Minister saying immigration is far too high, we have to bring it down, and then see the reality of the decisions you make for the economy, for good or ill, and immigration is going up and up . I do for good or ill, and immigration is going up and up . Going up and up . I do want it to come down going up and up . I do want it to come down. It going up and up . I do want it to come down. It is going up and up . I do want it to come down. It is very going up and up . I do want it to come down. It is very important going up and up . I do want it to i come down. It is very important to me and to the Prime Minister and thatis me and to the Prime Minister and that is why we made that Manifesto Pledge and we will stick to it. There are exceptional factors we should all acknowledge. The generosity of the British Public in offering more of the worlds greatest Resettlement Schemes for ukrainians, the hong kong scheme, the schemes we have had for syria and afghanistan and the Global Scheme Run by the united nations, they have accounted for a very large amount of exceptional migration to the country in recent years. That commands the broad support of the British Public. But we as a government are committed to bringing the number down which is in stark contrast to labour, incidentally. They want immigration to come down. They want immigration to come down. The chair of the labour party. Taste the chair of the labour party. We will be talking to labour later in the programme. Finally, iwant will be talking to labour later in the programme. Finally, i want to ask you, we have been in touch with the families of those who lost loved ones during the covid pandemic and they say it is obscene that the government is taking its own inquiry to court to block the publication, or the handover of ministers per whatsapp messages. She administers just hand it over . The court case is a farce . ~. ,. ,. , a farce . We will hand over to the inuui a farce . We will hand over to the inquiry absolutely a farce . We will hand over to the inquiry absolutely anything i a farce . We will hand over to the inquiry absolutely anything that l a farce . We will hand over to the| inquiry absolutely anything that is related to covid for the purpose of the inquiry, and that is the right thing to do. We want to re establish the inquiry and we have already handed over 55,000 documents. The point of difference is a simple one, which is we dont see why you hand over documents that have absolutely nothing to do with covid. I am a former lawyer and i have been involved in many discovery requests from courts in the past and the way they usually work as you set reasonable boundaries and you hand over things that are related to the case of the inquiry. There is no precedent as far as i can see to hand over things that have got absolutely nothing to do with covid. Such as Civil Servants private lives. I hope we can resolve that and it does not need to go to court. Robertjenrick, thank you very much. Great to have you with us. What do you think . Let us know did mrjenrick� s answers convince you . What are your experiences . Kuenssberg bbc. Co. Uk or Hashtag Bbclaurak and well try and share some of of the converation later in the show. You can follow along on the bbc live page the address is there for you now. Last week we showed you a surreal interview, performance perhaps, with the Russian Ambassador here about what is going on in the moscow regime. How Vladimir Putin ended up in charge is the drama being played out in londons west end every night. Actor will keen is being booed every night for his eerie performance as putin. And tom hollander, a very familiar face from stage and screen, plays the character boris berezovksy, the Real Life Billionaire who helped propel putin to the kremlim, then turned against him. Take a look. In the west you have no idea. You think of russia as a cold, bleak place. Full of hardship and cruelty. We are here today to urge the west to open its eyes, and see that this russia will never be a good neighbour. It will threaten the world order, it will be an enemy of freedom and we must act, now. Why do you think peter morgan chose to call this patriots . Its such a strong word. Why do you think he went for that title . One of the principle things hes looking at is different definitions of patriotism, and different definitions of looking at a country at a time when it was in unbelievable flux, and trying to decide what kind of country it was going to become. They were all patriots. Putin is sincere, is a moralist. Berezovksy, in his own way, is a moralist, so was litvinenko. All those characters who we learn about all thought, they are all fighting over the soul of russia, and they all felt they were doing the right thing, and therein lies the tragedy. Peter morgan wrote this long before the invasion of ukraine, long before russia was sort of back in all of our faces, if you like, as a subject of concern. Does that change how you have gone about playing this role . If you had had this script a few years ago, before ukraine, and thought about it, would you approach it in a different way to how you have approached it this time . What has changed is that now we are at war, i am more cautious about opening any post that arrives in the theatre from russia. Really . What do you worry might happen . That is interesting. Well, were at war, arent we, so and we are now quite visibly doing a play which is, broadly speaking, anti putin, and so were ijust go, oh, it probably wont happen, that. So do you feel you might have made yourself a target by taking this on . No, ijust think, ijust think its a little bit more serious than it would have been before the war, thats all. We are not doing this sweet chekov play, we are doing something thats about living figures who are embattled with the west, so its just a reason for not opening everything that arrives in the post. Tell us about berezovksy and about playing him, you know, this man, who as he reminds putin in the play, says i created you. Tell us about him. Well, berezovksy was one of the original group of oligarchs that understood how to what the possibilities of capitalism might be. The vast majority of russians werent so up to speed, and he was very interested in democracy, and freedom of speech, and ideas that we have all taken for granted in the west and he wanted to promote them. The forces, the old communist forces, the kgb forces which were still very active, and obviously produced putin, hated him, and berezovksy, who was very competitive, didnt want to toe the line, in the way that say abramovich did. Berezovksy went to war with the man that he thought, he considered should be grateful to him for having got him the job as president , and the play, in a way, is like a Morality Tale about somebody going to war with the devil, and losing. And how does it feel night after night being booed by the audience, and not in a pantomime way . It does feel like, i would say we are engaging with the audience in a very particular way, that its not the same as doing a play which has nothing to do, it doesnt impinge at all on peoples sort of day to day news reading or whatever. So it does have a it is exciting to feel that you, like i say, that you are engaging with their minds in a way that is sort of very present. If that means a few boos, thats a good thing. Many of our viewers, though, you know, know you for so much of your tv work, rev, the Night Manager and of course recently white lotus. Now white lotus 3 is being very eagerly anticipated. Now, unless theres going to be some sort of bobby ewing coming out of the shower moment, you are not going to be in season three. No. Definitely, there is not going to be some kind of come back, quentin is really dead . I dont think so, no. No. What is it about series like that, and maybe also succession at the moment, with this huge level of luxury and opulence, and people are just sucking those kinds of things up, why . Perverse isnt is it. It is probably people are fascinated by people they hate, and also we are in a potentially sort of revolutionary moment in which some people have become so obscenely wealthy, that the rest of the world can only gawp at them, and if the white lotus gives you a chance to laugh at them, and. Horror. What . And watch themselves. And watch themselves, exactly. And watch them all be killed off at the end. Yeah, it is sort of horror fascination, isnt it. It is one of the interesting things happening in america, is the writers strike. I just wonder if you, as also somebody who has written as well as performed, do you have a view on that, should the Big Businessjust cough up for writers properly . Writers are the most important people. They are the primary creators, and without them there is nothing, and, and they need to fight for their corner, and if ai is about to replace everybodys script writing lives, you know, they need to hold their ground. What is fascinating about it to me, is the way the unions have real power in america, which we consider to be land of the free market, and the sort of Thatcherite Aspiration was partly a kind of american aspiration, but the irony is in america the unions have real block power, which we no longer have here, so i kind of think, go for it. Tom and will, thank you so much for speaking to us. Thank you. That was great. Thank you. And patriots is on in londons west end until 19th august. Brian cox plenty of drama there, well chat about what we heard from the Immigration Minister in a sec, but i want to pick up with something Tom Hollanderjust told us. They are the, as he said clearly they from prime force, the writers of what we do, we cant do anything, without the writers and i have been particularly lucky to work with the genius Likejessie Armstrong and tony roach, these amazing writers who created our show, and they should get Theirjust Rewards who created our show, and they should get their just rewards for it, and, unfortunately, producers are the ones who behave rather badly. Are the ones who behave rather badl. , g are the ones who behave rather badly yes. Are the ones who behave rather badly. Yes, all are the ones who behave rather badly. Yes, all the i are the ones who behave rather. Badly. Yes, all the time. Badly. Really . Yes, all the time. They from badly. Really . Yes, all the time. They from ones badly. Really . Yes, all the time. They from ones who badly. Really . Yes, all the time. They from ones who kind badly. Really . Yes, all the time. They from ones who kind of sort| badly. Really . Yes, all the time. I they from ones who kind of sort of, are the minute lay fors and sometimes the writers get pushed to the tap end of the bath and i think it is time the writer, i mean they have done it before in the past but it time they really asserted their rights because they are the main focus, that is what you like, when you see a show like succession or a show like white lotus it the writer, they are the ones who have done it and you have to go with that. Ioghat and you have to go with that. What ou also and you have to go with that. What you also see and you have to go with that. What you also see the and you have to go with that. What you also see the right and you have to go with that. What you also see the right now, this opulence, these luxurious lifestyles and they said that people love to watch people, they hate. People hate. Watch people, they hate. People hate. ,. ,. , hate. That is what the whole success of hate. That is what the whole success of our hate. That is what the whole success of our show hate. That is what the whole success of our show is hate. That is what the whole success of our show is about, | success of our show is about, Everybody Loves to hate and these are extremely hateful people, and we have seen what happens to these hateful people and how, you know, i gather, i havent seen the end of the show but i gather there is the finale is my character has been proven right, because he knew this was all going to happen, then of course, fate interfered and he dies, but new the end of the day, he was right. We but new the end of the day, he was riuht. ~. But new the end of the day, he was rit ht,. ,. ,. , but new the end of the day, he was riuht. ,. , but new the end of the day, he was riuht. ,. , right. We are having a big Spoiler Alert. We will right. We are having a big Spoiler Alert. We will talk right. We are having a big Spoiler Alert. We will talk about right. We are having a big Spoiler Alert. We will talk about the i alert. We will talk about the finale. Brian cox has not seen it. I watched it for the first time and we will talk about it at the end of testify show. Salma, let us talk about what robertjenrick had to say on migration, if you were his special adviser, what would you been saying to him . Tats special adviser, what would you been saying to him . Saying to him . As far as the government saying to him . As far as the government is saying to him . As far as the government is concerned i saying to him . As far as the j government is concerned he saying to him . As far as the i government is concerned he did a good job. Government is concerned he did a goodjob. He government is concerned he did a good job. He ticked the right boxes as far as messaging goes, there is Something Interesting about what he said about the practicalities in protecting taxpayer funding, the home office is on a tight budget and there are practicalities involved with being able to house migrants there, is a joan rosti that has occurred because of people coming over, and that does ultimately put pressure on the system, so, what you haveis pressure on the system, so, what you have is the home office, sort of, you know the practicalities of delivering the policy against the rhetoric that politicians tend to use. � rhetoric that politicians tend to use. ,. , rhetoric that politicians tend to use. ,. , use. And communities are seeing in their own town, use. And communities are seeing in their own town, villages, use. And communities are seeing in their own town, villages, that i their own town, villages, that actually, the idea that this is under control, the idea this is getting down, people are saying this is not the case, for good or ill, they are saying it unfold in a way that doesnt match what Government Ministers say. That doesnt match what Government Ministers say ministers say. Exactly, iwonder if actually the ministers say. Exactly, iwonder if actually the answer ministers say. Exactly, iwonder if actually the answer is ministers say. Exactly, iwonder if actually the answer is not ministers say. Exactly, iwonder if actually the answer is not to i actually the answer is not to concede but to say, you know, as rain spoke about, should we be allowed to people to work and take the pressure off the. Is and move people into the community and society, in a much more manageable way . These are very big questions, and, you know, what seems to be happening, as always does with Immigration Policy people are reactive to what is in front of them instead of the broader perspective. Four to a room, instead of the broader perspective. Fourto a room, is instead of the broader perspective. Four to a room, is that something we should have . The four to a room, is that something we should have . Should have . The nature of the individual case should have . The nature of the individual case k should have . The nature of the individual case k the should have . The nature of the individual case k the individual| individual case k the individual group. Think we have seen a lot of that, i mean i dont think, i think that, i mean i dont think, i think that brexit has a lot do with that, covid has a lotto do with what has happened, and i mean i always think, it amuses me why do they want to come to this country . When you look at it it is almost the last stop on the map before you go further west and i think that this country has represented certain things but of course you get the criminal elements who have, are exploiting it and that why we have such a huge amount. I would like to talk about the Student Thing, the Student Thing is different in scotland than down here, we depend on students and international student, i was director of Dundee University for several years so i know how important it was and how important it is to include these extraordinary talented people to study here. That is one of the talented people to study here. That is one of the things i was going to ask you about rain. Someone said take them out of the number, but how important do you think that students contribution and education is in terms of the economy . It is hugely im ortant terms of the economy . It is hugely important and terms of the economy . It is hugely important and this terms of the economy . It is hugely important and this is terms of the economy . It is hugely important and this is something i l important and this is something i think important and this is something i think we important and this is something i think we need to appreciate, students think we need to appreciate, students come here to study, and they also students come here to study, and they also leave, so that is part of, they also leave, so that is part of, they in they also leave, so that is part of, they in the they also leave, so that is part of, they in the net migration number, we have seen they in the net migration number, we have seen Higher Education is one of the most have seen Higher Education is one of the most important export, it is critical the most important export, it is critical to the most important export, it is critical to our economy and it is important critical to our economy and it is important notjust in term of what students important notjust in term of what students bring when they are here and studying, they take back those learnings. And studying, they take back those learnings, they experience our culture. Learnings, they experience our culture, and then they are other our ambassadors round the world, think we undervalue the contribution that universities make, we are lucky in the uk. Universities make, we are lucky in the uk. That universities make, we are lucky in the uk, that with have leading university in every region in the uk, university in every region in the uk. And university in every region in the uk. And we university in every region in the uk, and we need to really protect them. Uk, and we need to really protect them. And uk, and we need to really protect them, and appreciate what they contribute to our economy. We know throu~h contribute to our economy. We know through has contribute to our economy. We know through has been contribute to our economy. We know through has been a contribute to our economy. We know through has been a standoff contribute to our economy. We know through has been a standoff twine i through has been a Stand Off Twine the home office and other part of government whether you can cut the Student Numbers but it looks for now the treasury won out. Rain i want to talk to you about the cbi, if people havent been following it, the organisation has been in a lot of trouble. The former boss departed, after allegation of inappropriate behaviour, there have been allegations of rape at some events are, you have spent much of your career there, what was it like for you finding out about what went on . It has been devastating to read about it has been devastating to read about some of the instances and i think about some of the instances and i think you about some of the instances and i think you know, i hope we are emerging think you know, i hope we are emerging from what has been a really deep and emerging from what has been a really deep and painful crisis for us as an organisation, and i came back as a female organisation, and i came back as a female leader to lead the organisation, because i really believe organisation, because i really believe in the people, we have over 250 really believe in the people, we have over 250 really talented economist, policy 250 really talented economist, policy specialist, campaigner, who are really policy specialist, campaigner, who are really brilliant at what they do, are really brilliant at what they do. And are really brilliant at what they do. And i are really brilliant at what they do, and i have seen how we have been able to do, and i have seen how we have been able to help do, and i have seen how we have been able to help businesses, and help government design effective economic policies government design effective economic policies to government design effective economic policies to supportjobs government design effective economic policies to support jobs during the pandemic. Policies to support jobs during the pandemic, to help us tackle some the bil pandemic, to help us tackle some the big issues pandemic, to help us tackle some the big issues in pandemic, to help us tackle some the big issues in society, so, and but that only big issues in society, so, and but that only works when we have the ii l ht that only works when we have the right cultures embedded within our organisation and the trust of our members. Organisation and the trust of our members, our staff, and of course, politicians members, our staff, and of course, politicians politicians. How are you going to sort it out politicians. How are you going to sort it out i politicians. How are you going to sort it out. I have politicians. How are you going to sort it out. I have read politicians. How are you going to sort it out. I have read your i sort it out. I have read your prospectus, i know there is a vote next week but it has been such a mess, do you think the organisation deserves to survive . I mess, do you think the organisation deserves to survive . Deserves to survive . I do, i have seen how deserves to survive . I do, i have seen how effective deserves to survive . I do, i have seen how effective we deserves to survive . I do, i have seen how effective we are i deserves to survive . I do, i have seen how effective we are when | deserves to survive . I do, i have i seen how effective we are when we have a seen how effective we are when we have a collective voice of business across have a collective voice of business across sectors and regions, talking about across sectors and regions, talking about the across sectors and regions, talking about the big issues round refugees, immigration, around climate change, and what immigration, around climate change, and what we immigration, around climate change, and what we do practically, what are some and what we do practically, what are some of and what we do practically, what are some of the and what we do practically, what are some of the solutions we can do, to solve some of the solutions we can do, to solve some some of the solutions we can do, to solve some of those issues and if you have solve some of those issues and if you have individual businesses speak on their you have individual businesses speak on their own, these things have to be solved on their own, these things have to be solved through partnership, lab rakes be solved through partnership, lab rakes and be solved through partnership, lab rakes and the cbi ebbs when we are effective rakes and the cbi ebbs when we are effective we can speak for the farming effective we can speak for the farming community, for technology, we can farming community, for technology, we can speak for businesses across regions. We can speak for businesses across regions. So we can speak for businesses across regions, so it is really important we have regions, so it is really important we have that collective voice. There are other business we have that collective voice. There are other Business Groups we have that collective voice. There are other Business Groups who i we have that collective voice. Tues are other Business Groups who could do the job, they are other Business Groups who could do thejob, they might are other Business Groups who could do the job, they might argue they do it better and there is this vote on tuesday where you want to get members on side. If that is lost is there a possibility the cbi packs up after six decades. It a nerveracking after six decades. It a nerveracking time i after six decades. It a | nerveracking time for after six decades. It a i nerveracking time for us after six decades. Hit nerve racking time for us and i after six decades. It 5 nerve racking time for us and i am determined we lead think programme of change, so that we can be that collective voice and of course there are other Business Organisations and we have worked really well with them in the past, we have collaborated with them, we worked people in the pandemic to say how do we have a Furlough Scheme that works for business . We worked with the tuc on making that happen, the cbi, we have over 60 years of experience in surveys and analysis, my question to politician, to our members, is look, we have expertise, we have a whole programme of change we are determined to work through on our culture. �. ,. ,. ,. , culture. And part of that programme of chan. E culture. And part of that programme of change is culture. And part of that programme of change is that culture. And part of that programme of change is that you culture. And part of that programme of change is that you are culture. And part of that programme of change is that you are losing culture. And part of that programme of change is that you are losing a of change is that you are losing a third of your staff, to keep the costs down, will you take a pay cut . Cut . ~. ,. ,. , cut . We are looking at the options. So ou cut . We are looking at the options. 50 you are . Cut . We are looking at the options. 50 you are . V cut . We are looking at the options. So you are . V look, cut . We are looking at the options. So you are . V look, my cut . We are looking at the options. So you are . V look, my pay cut . We are looking at the options. So you are . V look, my pay is so you are . V look, my pay is already not as high as my predecessors is and i think what is really important, is not we protect as manyjobs as we can through this, thatis as manyjobs as we can through this, that is really, i do want to lose any colleague, that is why i have come back, i have come back to fight for the organisation, to fight for thejobs and the for the organisation, to fight for the jobs and the people within that organisation, and i am really determined to do it. But to do that we need the backing of members, and what we have set south a programme of change,ing so that we can show that we have got the right culture, we are addressing any workplace misconduct, that people feel supported if they raise issues and this is a problem across society, so many organisations are grappling with this, i hope we can take some of the lessons and share those. We will see what happens on tuesday, i am sure some of your members will have heard what you had to say this morning. Thank you for now. This week there has been allegation of inappropriate behaviour by a labour mp, Geraint Davies who has apologised. Let us Talk Tojonathan Reynolds who join us from salford. We will talk about your plans for greenjobs, we know that we will talk about your plans for green jobs, we know that matters to you, on that subject of Bad Behaviour in politics, did you know, as other mp5 now say they do, that there were concerns is about Geraint Davies� s behaviour for some time . Good morning, no, i didnt. Davies� s behaviour for some time . Good morning, no, ididn� t. I davies� s behaviour for some time . Good morning, no, i didnt. Ias a member of the National Executive committee of the labour party have been involved in the changes that we have made to our disciplinary process, we have overhauled them significantly to try and improve our response to allegations of this kind, i recognise there was always more to do, but we have clearly tried very hard to make sure we are doing everything we can as an organisation and taking swift action where allegations emerge of Unacceptable Behaviour to suspend mps and let this process take its course and investigate them properly and go through what should be the proper mechanisms to stam up out this kind of behaviour and change culture over the long term, and as i say, there is more to do, but this is completely unacceptable to hear about allegations of this kind and we are determined to face them down. The last time you joined us you were clear on this subject, too, because only less than a month ago i had to ask you about an allegation of Sexual Assault against a labour front bencher, there was the case of a Labour Adviser who was found to have behaved inappropriately towards women, can you see why some viewers might think the labour party has a problem with this . Problem with this . Those are all incredibly serious problem with this . Those are all incredibly serious events problem with this . Those are all incredibly serious events and problem with this . Those are all incredibly serious events and i i problem with this . Those are all. Incredibly serious events and i have always given you candid answers about my personal revulsion hearing store stories of this kind and the need to make sure we are responding properly. If you look at the labour party in the last few years where allegations are made against any colleague, the process has been swift. I hope people have confidence and feel they can be supported when they need to come forward. [30 and feel they can be supported when they need to come forward. They need to come forward. Do you think the party they need to come forward. Do you think the party has they need to come forward. Do you think the party has a they need to come forward. Do you think the party has a problem, they need to come forward. Do you think the party has a problem, you| think the party has a problem, you have made changes to the complaint system, it is being reviewed again, but do you any labour has a particular problem with there . There are clearly problems particular problem with there . There are clearly problems in particular problem with there . Tu are clearly problems in politics as in other field, are clearly problems in politics as in otherfield, business, other sectors too, i think we can say we are not complacent about it and have sought to make change, that is how we are failing to dial with problems round anti semitism to tackling allegations ofs of kind, it is required that comprehensive response, and we will seek to improve that, to make sure we are doing everything we can as an organisation to fill the standard we expect of ourselves and people expect of ourselves and people expect of ourselves and people expect of us. Expect of ourselves and people meet of m expect of ourselves and people expect of us. Expect of ourselves and people exect of us. , ~. , expect of us. Green energy, we know labour wants expect of us. Green energy, we know labour wants all expect of us. Green energy, we know labour wants all electricity labour wants all Electricity Production to be green by 2030 and end exploration of oil and gas in the north sea, one of your Union Backers say labour is naive and wrong on this, and you are risking Tens Of Thousands ofjobs in scotland. Tens of thousands of obs in sealant Tens Of Thousands of obs in scotland. ,. ,. ,. , scotland. First of all, Net Zero Represents scotland. First of all, Net Zero Represents the scotland. First of all, Net Zero Represents the biggest scotland. First of all, Net Zero Represents the biggest jobs i represents the biggestjobs opportunity for a generation, that is why they are so important, that is why they are so important, that is why they are so important, that is why we want this country to get the benefits from that and we are blowing it under the conservative, we are blowing the chance for what could be a transformation economic change that is positive. What could be a transformation economic change that is positive. Change that is positive. What about rotectin change that is positive. What about protecting jobs change that is positive. What about protecting jobs that change that is positive. What about protecting jobs that are change that is positive. What about protecting jobs that are already protecting jobs that are already exist fin protecting obs that are already exi5r. ,. ,. , protecting obs that are already exis. ,. ,. ,. , exist on oil and gas laura, we will see in the exist on oil and gas laura, we will see in the north exist on oil and gas laura, we will see in the north sea exist on oil and gas laura, we will see in the north sea existing exist on oil and gas laura, we will see in the north sea existing oil i exist on oil and gas laura, we will| see in the north sea existing oil an gas fields continue top produce well up gas fields continue top produce well up until 2050 for the people employed in that sector, they will continue to work in that sector but the big opportunity comes from the transition and we dont think further new oil and gas fields are the answer, first of all because they wont do anything for bills, our Energy Security, they cost a lot of public subsidy, they will be a Climate Disaster and the there is better alternative available. It is by embracing that change, plans for public stakes and the transition to green steel, for renewable, storage for nuclear, that is where the future is and the number ofjobs that will be created is in excess of the jobs there, that will be created is in excess of thejobs there, but that will be created is in excess of the jobs there, but those people will continue to work there until 2050. At the same time the jobs being created, the roles will be the same. Electricians and engineers and people who bel required in this this area, we are trying to get the balance right. We are being proportional. We are looking what the is the biggest opportunity for the is the biggest opportunity for the uk. If the is the biggest opportunity for the uk. ,. ,. , the uk. If you are getting it right wh are the uk. If you are getting it right why are you the uk. If you are getting it right why are you causing the uk. If you are getting it right why are you causing alarm the uk. If you are getting it right why are you causing alarm in the uk. If you are getting it right| why are you causing alarm in that sector, can you be clear what the policy would be, you wouldnt grant any new licenses if you win the election but you wouldnt stop any existing projects under way. That election but you wouldnt stop any existing projects under way. Existing proects under way. That is exactl the existing projects under way. That is exactly the position existing projects under way. That is exactly the position so existing projects under way. That is exactly the position so we existing projects under way. That is exactly the position so we will existing projects under way. That is exactly the position so we will not i exactly the position so we will not grant further licences but we wont turn off the existing supplies or licenses granted before we form the Labour Government we want to create, and, this is about the future, and the chance and the opportunity for the chance and the opportunity for the uk is enormous, there are particular competitive advantages we have,in particular competitive advantages we have, in what storage will mean and we cannot protect bill payer or Energy Security by remaining hooked on fossil fuels. On fossilfuels. Embracing this big opportunity is so important to the uk, i understand to be frank in the past, under conservative governments big economic transition in the uk have not been handled well. I grew up in the coalfields of county durham, i represent manchester, we had deindustrialisation. Is would you guarantee viewers in scotland who work in the north sea industry there there will not be anyjob losses. There will be more job opportunities, and that is true of every part of the uk, because the opportunities are massive. That is not the same opportunities are massive. That is not the same as opportunities are massive. That is not the same as Guaranteeing Opportunities are massive. That is i not the same as guaranteeing there wont be job losses, if you are talking about a transition, many people in the, including in the scottish labour party, you guys are desperate to get seats back in scotland, there are people worried you are causing alarm and there could be an impact on jobs. The north sea is in long term decline, never mind our policy. There will be some changes in certain areas along the north sea. We will not be using existing production and people will not be using anyjobs in working in an area that somehow has had the licence to extract. This is where we go in the future and the opportunities of the future and the opportunities of the future and the opportunities of the future and seizing those. Look at what the Biden Administration has done a look at the scale of investment it has attracted. You can move incredibly quickly. Look at the price of offshore wind, a third of the cost of oil. These opportunities are there when we embrace them and this is about more and betterjobs in the future and in the long term and that is why it is so important. I am sure we will continue to talk about it in the next few months. As i have got you, i am not sure if you heard rain talk about how he or she hopes the cbi can survive. Political parties a press pause on their cooperation with that business group. Cooperation with that business urou. ~. , cooperation with that business urou. ~. , cooperation with that business rou,. ,. , group. Would you work with them auain . Group. Would you work with them again . The group. Would you work with them again . The allegations group. Would you work with them again . The allegations and group. Would you work with them again . The allegations and the i again . The allegations and the events at the cbi are incredibly serious and they require are substantial response and listening to rain that is what the cbi is seeking to do. I will be following the agm next week extremely closely. But this country needs a significant, National Business voice that encompasses all of the different parts of businesses and the subsets and the sectors, but it needs an Overall National voice. 0ne needs an Overall National voice. One of the reasons the economy has fared so poorly is because of the disrespect they have had in general for expertise and that business voice and the cbi have been able to challenge that and it has the skill to do so. We will be following those events incredibly closely. To do so. We will be following those events incredibly closely. Thank you ve much events incredibly closely. Thank you very much for events incredibly closely. Thank you very much forjoining events incredibly closely. Thank you very much forjoining us. Events incredibly closely. Thank you very much forjoining us. One events incredibly closely. Thank you very much forjoining us. One of events incredibly closely. Thank you very much forjoining us. One of the many people who will be watching that closely on tuesday. Now we talk a lot together about what is going on in ukraine. But we should also talk about a different threat the chances of a conflict between taiwan and china. It feels, and is, very far away. Taiwan is an island just 110 miles off the coast of chinas mainland, with a population of more than 23 milliion. And in recent months, china has staged Military Exercises and mock strikes against the island and its surrounding waters. Why are things more and more tense . Should we worry . I spoke to taiwans foreign minister, jospeh wu. The reason is very simple. It is the Chinese Government, the communist government, they have an expansionist motivation. They have been trying to expand their sphere of influence and in the south china sea, china is claiming the whole area of water and try to send their military vessels and aircraft to control the region against the claim of other countries. This is something we need to watch out for because that causes the confrontation between democracy and the one hand and authoritarianism on the other. People here are still living normally. The reason is because taiwan has been under Military Threat for decades, even though it is becoming more serious, but the people decided not to be intimidated by china. Minister, if someone hasnt been following this story, why should they care . The tension is not only for taiwan to face. The tension is probably going to affect the rest of the world. One simple fact is that around 50 of the goods to the rest of the world goes through the taiwan strait. And more seriously, taiwan is the main producer of semiconductor computer chips. About 60 of the total output of the Semiconductor Products are coming from taiwan, so any interruption of the International Supply chain is going to have a very serious impact upon the rest of the world. But you have been doing drills to prepare the public for a possible invasion. Wont that just antagonise china . We are trying to strengthen our defence capabilities so that china understands that it will not be able to use force against taiwan and take taiwan over easily. In fact, this is a long Term Investment from the government. We are also working together with like minded countries like the United States to toughen up the training process, to acquire the necessary weapons for our self defence. President biden raised eyebrows when he said the us would defend you if there was an invasion. Do you believe that . In order for taiwan to be able to defend itself, we need the us assistance and the United States has been helping taiwan during this period of time. They are sending us the necessary weapons for taiwans self defence, and at the same time United States is helping taiwan to train our soldiers, to be adaptive to the modern warfare and that is highly appreciated, just like the war in ukraine, the ukrainians havebeen bravely defending their own territory, their sovereignty and freedom, and it severs us inspiration to the taiwanese people. We understand thaw if china wants to launch an attack against taiwan we have the determination to defend ourselves, whether the United States is coming to assist taiwan in the event of war is still not a conclusion at this moment, but we have been stressing, and i need to stress again, the defence of taiwan is our own responsibility. Liz truss visited taiwan recently but there were suggestions that increased tension, but would you like more visitors like that . The Chinese Government has been trying to exclude taiwan from participating in Major International organisations such as the un, the who, interpol and etc, so any kind of support for taiwan to participate in those International Organisations is highly appreciated. Former Prime Minister liz truss visited taiwan and she was highly welcome by the government and the people here in taiwan and her physical presence in taiwan shows her support for the taiwanese endeavours and that is highly appreciated so we would like to invite more statesmen, more politicians, parliamentarians or even government officials, we would like to welcome more people from the uk to visit taiwan. Would you like the Prime Minister or the foreign secretary to visit . I understand that this practical him takes and the Foreign Policy of the uk government, but whenever that i feel convenient, i think the interactions from taiwans side would be ready. There is evidence that china is using misinformation online as a weapon against taiwan, are you worried about that . Disinformation, misinformation, cognitive warfare, infiltration, all this type of hybrid warfare, has been there, in a very serious way in taiwan. The chinese are being using that to influence the cognitive of the taiwanese people and they try to shape the beliefs of the taiwanese people, especially the United States is not trustworthy. What about Artificial Intelligence, are you concerned that china might create deep fakes and spread images that are false . That is something that the experts here are very concerned about. For example, in the election time, by the way the election, the democratic election, president ial and parliamentary election, is coming up soon, people are worrying about the chinese, the possibility the Chinese Government will use those kinds of techniques, al, or Artificial Intelligence or deep fake, that kind of techniques, to effect taiwans election but the experts in the government here, they are very alert to all kinds of possible manipulations by the is probably more guarded than any other government in the world. Minister wu, thank you very much for your time. We will keep an eye on that issue in the coming months. We will keep an eye on that issue in the coming months. Its nearly ten oclock, believe it or not an hour ago we were asking, is the government really setting out promises on immigration it can keep . Heres the Immigration Minister. We are taking very robust steps. I think we have the most comprehensive plan of any of the major European Countries, and we are already delivering on it. Countries, and we are already delivering on it. You have been in touch. Delivering on it. You have been in touch 0ne delivering on it. You have been in touch. One of delivering on it. You have been in touch. One of you delivering on it. You have been in touch. One of you said, delivering on it. You have been in touch. One of you said, the touch. One of you said, the government is kicking the can down the road because they can resolve the road because they can resolve theissue the road because they can resolve the issue in a few your� s time and it will be labours problem. That is what tom bradley said. Another, why are we accepting Asylum Seekers in this country when they travel through many countries where they could ask for asylum . It is always great to hear what you think, thank you for getting in touch. As promised, for ourfinale you for getting in touch. As promised, for our finale on the programme, lets talk about your finale, brian. He revealed you have not watched the finale of succession. Not watched the finale of succession. Ihla. Why not . Not watched the finale of succession. Why not . Not watched the finale of succession. , wh not . , succession. No. Why not . I am dead and dead people succession. No. Why not . I am dead and dead people dont succession. No. Why not . I am dead and dead people dont watch succession. No. Why not . I am dead and dead people dont watch it. Succession. No. Why not . I am dead and dead people dont watch it. I and dead people dont watch it. I must apologise for anybody who has not been watching or who did not know that that happened early on in season three. Why didnt you watch it . I season three. Why didnt you watch it . , � ~. ,. , ~ it . I dont know. I have never liked watchin it . I dont know. I have never liked watching myself it . I dont know. I have never liked watching myself for it . I dont know. I have never liked watching myself for a it . I dont know. I have never liked watching myself for a start. It . I dont know. I have never liked i watching myself for a start. Somehow or other, because of what happened to logan i have been disinclined to watch the rest. I knew how it was going to end because i knew that logan had already set it up, so i gather that ultimately in the end logan has won through, he is in the grave. But it is a strange situation. I dont cling onto things, when i am over, it is over and i go on and ifind that with things, when i am over, it is over and i go on and i find that with the show, which has been a great show, it has been one of the great shows of all time, especially for me, so i cant complain. It of all time, especially for me, so i cant complain of all time, especially for me, so i cant complain. It has been a huge phenomenon cant complain. It has been a huge phenomenon around cant complain. It has been a huge phenomenon around the cant complain. It has been a huge phenomenon around the world. I l cant complain. It has been a huge i phenomenon around the world. I know, i cant no phenomenon around the world. I know, i cant go anywhere phenomenon around the world. I know, i cant go anywhere without. Phenomenon around the world. I know, i cant go anywhere without. What i i cant go anywhere without. What was it somebody said . I cant remember the euphemism for f. We are a family show remember the euphemism for f. We are a family show i remember the euphemism for f. We are a family show. I am remember the euphemism for f. We are a family show. I am interested remember the euphemism for f. We are a family show. I am interested that i a family show. I am interested that you say logan wins, he is right, and without giving away the details of the end, i know neither of you seen the end, i know neither of you seen the last episode. The last episode. She has got other thins the last episode. She has got other thin. S to the last episode. She has got other things to do. The last episode. She has got other things to do, she the last episode. She has got other things to do, she is the last episode. She has got other things to do, she is quite the last episode. She has got other things to do, she is quite busy, i the last episode. She has got other things to do, she is quite busy, as| things to do, she is quite busy, as you can see. She is a very busy women and i completely respect the fact that you have not seen the series. ~. ,. ,. , series. Without giving it all away, none of his series. Without giving it all away, none of his children series. Without giving it all away, none of his children succeed. I series. Without giving it all away, none of his children succeed. And they dont none of his children succeed. Jifuc they dont deserve to. None of his children succeed. fific they dont deserve to. That is none of his children succeed. Eic they dont deserve to. That is the whole point of the show, it has been heading that way and it is down to our genius writers and jesse who steered it that way, because they have been living in this. I did a thing for channel five about the wealth gap because that fascinates me, the fact people are getting cooler and people are getting richer. And the rich have become so out of it, they are so separate, and thatis out of it, they are so separate, and that is what our show deals with. Rightly, they got theirjust desserts at the end, apparently, i havent seen the finale, but apparently they get the just deserts. Apparently they get the ust deserts. ,. , apparently they get the ust deserts. , , deserts. Our people in business as bad as it logan deserts. Our people in business as bad as it logan ray . Deserts. Our people in business as bad as it logan ray . I deserts. Our people in business as bad as it logan ray . I have deserts. Our people in business as bad as it logan ray . I have not i deserts. Our people in business as l bad as it logan ray . I have not seen it, i am a working bad as it logan ray . I have not seen it, i am a working mum bad as it logan ray . I have not seen it, i am a working mum with bad as it logan ray . I have not seen it, i am a working mum with four it, i am a working mum with four young it, i am a working mum with four young girls. It, i am a working mum with four young girls, so we will maybe see it in canada. Young girls, so we will maybe see it in canada, but i have heard it is brilliant in canada, but i have heard it is brilliant it in canada, but i have heard it is brilliant. It is on the bucket list when brilliant. It is on the bucket list when my brilliant. It is on the bucket list when my husband and i have some time when my husband and i have some time. So when my husband and i have some time. When my husband and i have some time,. , when my husband and i have some time. , when my husband and i have some time salma. I when my husband and i have some i time. Salma, have time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have ou been time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have you been watching time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have you been watching it . Time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have you been watching it . I time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have you been watching it . I saw time. So in about 2028 . Salma, have you been watching it . I saw season i you been watching it . I saw season one and you been watching it . I saw season one and then you been watching it . I saw season one and then i you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had a you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had a baby you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had a baby and you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had a baby and i you been watching it . I saw season one and then i had a baby and i will catch one and then i had a baby and i will catch up one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with it one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with it. I one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with it. I will one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with it. I will pursue one and then i had a baby and i will catch up with it. I will pursue it. I catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have not catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have not given catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have not given it catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have not given it all catch up with it. I will pursue it. We have not given it all away, l we have not given it all away, although we did reveal that logan does die. ,. , although we did reveal that logan does die. , ~. , although we did reveal that logan does die. , ~. ,. , does die. Everybody knows that. I have even does die. Everybody knows that. I have even had does die. Everybody knows that. I have even had an does die. Everybody knows that. I have even had an obituary. Does die. Everybody knows that. I have even had an obituary. They l does die. Everybody knows that. I l have even had an obituary. They did an obituary for logo, which they got quite wrong, an obituary in the Los Angeles Times. Quite wrong, an obituary in the Los Angeles Times quite wrong, an obituary in the Los Angeles Times. Only in los angeles. We could talk angeles times. Only in los angeles. We could talk about angeles times. Only in los angeles. We could talk about that angeles times. Only in los angeles. We could talk about that all angeles times. Only in los angeles. We could talk about that all day, i we could talk about that all day, the dastardly behaviour of the roy clan, totally the opposite my panel. Thank you to you for watching when we have had a Big Conversation about immigration, a subject that the conservatives want to put at the top of the political left, even though much of their record is one of broken promises and failure. Looking at the numbers now it is wise to be sceptical about the chances of that much change, but c. Right now, the government has question marks about its competence, its system and a contradiction built in. The economy needs workers from overseas, Prime Ministers have presided over a huge rise in numbers, although the all say they want to bring it down. Maybe you dont get very far if you put your foot on the break and the other one on the accelerator at the same time. Thank you for your company. You can catch up on iplayer or i will see you here at nine next week. Goodbye. Live from london. This is bbc news indias railways minister says the cause and those responsible for the countrys worst train crash in decades have been identified. The bbc understands the cost of detaining and deporting Illegal Migrants in the uk could reach £6 billion in two years. And the Epic Challenge for a group of rowers as they attempt to row around the entire coast of great britain. Hello, im rajini vaidyanathan. Indias railways minister says the cause and people responsible for the countrys worst train crash in more than two decades have been identified. In more than two decades its believed there was an issue with the electronic Safety System regulating signals