You know, you literally imagine the street of london paved with gold and palaces and carriages with Kings And Queens and that sort of thing. Well, it has that sometimes they chuckle. So it took a bit of getting used to. But when youre young, its easier to adjust to a new environment than when youre old. And once i started school, you know, i settled down and, um. I did rather well at school because the education i had injamaica i went to an Elementary School was in some ways superior to what i was confronted with at my secondary school, tulse hill secondary school. For example, they didnt teach grammar in english, which i did injamaica. Mm hm. And it took a couple of years before i began doing simultaneous equations, when i was doing those injamaica. So you were educationally much more advanced. I was able to cope. So you were able to cope, but you say that you never really felt that you fitted in when you were at school in england. You say you made friends, but that the atmosphere was also hostile, that you experienced racism. What do you mean . Well, when. For my generation, we. We wanted to be british. We wanted. This was a new country. Our parents had Great Expectations for us. We wanted to blend in with the communities and become a part of england, but we were faced with hostility, and. Can ijust ask, where did you get that sentiment from . Because i know that you were brought up by your maternal grandmother. Mm hm. Your mother was already working in england. You didnt have much contact with your father. So was it your maternal grandmother who influenced you in that kind of thinking . No, i think that most young people injamaica had that kind of a mindset because of the colonial. They were part of. England was our mother country, so to speak. So, you know, we expected motherly. Motherly treatment when we arrived. And what did you get instead . Racial abuse, hostility. Um. You know, my generation, we suffered extreme sense of alienation from the society. And by the time we became teenagers, you know, we had to draw on our roots from where we came. We became more. Instead of becoming more british, we became more caribbean, more jamaican, more trinidadian. Which has really influenced your work subsequently. And reggae music played a big part in that, because. Yeah, ill come to the reggae music in a moment. Butjust to sort of plot your life a little bit, life story a little bit more. Its really interesting, the fact that you are a man renowned for using words, and yet your father was illiterate, your mother semi literate, your grandmother illiterate, but you won a place at Goldsmiths College in london, where you studied sociology. Mm hm. And thats where, in the mid 1970s, you first began to write political poetry. Why were you motivated to do that . I was motivated to write verse because of a book i read called The Souls Of Black Folk by web du bois about the experiences. And he was the very prominent African American thinker. Yes. About the experiences of African Americans after emancipation. And, strangely enough, i was able to relate my own experiences to what i had read, and it stirred something within me. It made me want to express myself, to articulate how i felt about the experiences of my generation growing up in a hostile environment. Right. One really striking event, the kind of issues that were talking about that inspired you to write was the new cross fire in london in 1981, when 13 young black britons tragically died. And you were part of the new Cross Massacre Action Committee and you organised a march of 20,000 with placards saying, 13 dead, nothing said. And you wrote some poetry about that called Di Great Insohreckshan. Could you read it for us, please . Yeah, well, Di Great Insohreckshan came after the black peoples day of action in response to the new cross massacre. Yeah. It was really about the uprisings in brixton that followed. Di great insohreckshan. It woz in april nineteen eighty Wan Doun Inna Di Ghetto af brixtan dat Di Babylan Dem cause such a Frickshan Dat it bring about a great insohreckshan an it spread all owevah di naeshan it woz truly an Histarical Occayshan it woz event af di year an i wish i ad been dere wen wi run riat all Owevah Brixtan Wen Wi mash up Plenty Police van wen we mash up di Wicked Wan Plan Wen We Mash Up Di Swamp Eighty wan fi wha . Fi mek di rulah dem andastan dat Wi Naw Tek Noh more a Dem Oppreshan And Wen Mi Check Out Di ghetto grape vine fi fine out all i coulda fine evry Rebeljusa Revel in dem story dem a taak bout di powah an di glory dem a Taak Bout Di Burnin an di lootin Dem A Taak Bout Di Smashin an Di Grabin Dem a Tell Me Bout Di Vanquish an di victri Dem Seh Babylan dem went too far soh wha wi ad woz fi bun two cyar an wan an two innocent get mar but Wha Noh Soh It Goh Sometime Inna War Ein Star noh soh it goh sometime inna war . Dem seh wi bun dung di george wi coulda bun di Lanlaad We Bun Dung Di george wi nevah bun di Lanlaad Wen Wi run riat all owevah brixtan wen we mash up Plenty Police van wen wi mash up di Wicked Wan Plan Wen Wi mash up di swamp eighty wan dem Seh Wi Commandeer Cyar an wi Ghadah Ammunishan we bill wi barricade an di wicked ketch afraid wi sen out wi scout Fog Oh Fine Dem whereabout den wi faam up wi passi an wi mek wi raid well now Dem Run Gaah Goh Plan Countah Ackshan but di Plastic Bullit an di Waatah Cannan will bring a blam blam nevah mind scarman will bring a blam blam. Thank you very much forthat, linton. And you say you wrote that in response to the new cross fire in london, which in 1981 was followed by the riots, the protests in brixton in south london. And i should say to you that one conservative newspaper, the spectator, at the time, said of your poems, written obviously in patois english, that they wreaked havoc in schools and helped to create a generation of rioters and illiterates. He chuckles. Im sure youre familiar with that kind of criticism, but nevertheless, how do you respond to it . I felt rather flattered that the spectator should see it fit to give me space on their precious pages, you know . I felt that if this, um. If this magazine that represents right wing opinions is saying those things about me, then im doing something right. How important is it for your sense of identity to write in the Jamaican Patois . In wanting to write verse, i reached a stage where i decided that an important criteria has to be authenticity of voice. So rather than an affectation of, you know, the canon of english poetry, i would write in the everyday spoken language that i was used to. And i was influenced in that way of thinking by the caribbean artists movement, which was founded by some remarkable west indian intellectuals the historian kamau brathwaite, the poet and publisherjohn la rose, the jamaican broadcaster and novelist andrew salkey. And they were all about autonomy of aesthetics, that they should tease out or rather, we should tease out our own aesthetics rather than seeking validation from our old colonial masters. All right. You said just a little while ago that when you came to the uk thinking you were going to be embraced by the mother country, as you saw it, that actually it made you feel more caribbean, and yet you say you feel at home in england as well as injamaica, so how do you reconcile the two . Well, ive. England has changed over the years and i would like to think that my generation played a part in changing england. And in changing england, weve changed ourselves. I have certain emotional ties to jamaica. Um. I see myself as a jamaican. I still have. Ive retained my jamaican identity, but im british, you know . I mean, lets face it, we have to face up to facts, im british. Ive spent the vast majority of my life in this country and, um. Yeah. I should just say that you also put your poetry to music. In 1977, you were given the opportunity by richard branson, the businessman who had a record label, that you could actually put your poetry to music. Later on, you had your own Record Company and so on. You worked as a journalist and tv presenter also. How important was it for you to reach an audience beyond the british Caribbean One . Very important because you want to share your story with other people and you want to build solidarity. And the only way you can build solidarity is if other people are able to understand what youve been through, what youre going through, and maybe find some common ground. So here youve got your new book which has come out, called time come, and its a selection of your prose over 50 years of work. 0r thereabouts. 0r thereabouts, yeah. Its a collection of my various writings spanning five decades. But dont you want to be relevant today . Well, i think im still relevant. But in what way . Because you yourself said britain has changed. I think some of the things that ive spoken about over the years are still pertinent to. To whats happening today. I mean, i talk about racism. It hasnt gone away. Um. Hasnt gone away. I mean, and you do say racism is very much part of the cultural dna of this country. But, come on, huge progress has been made in Race Relations now, hasnt it . The progress that weve made really is to integrate ourselves into British Society because there were huge barriers to integration. When i was a youngster, there was something called a colour bar. There were places you couldnt go. And through our struggles, through Building Autonomous organisations, through our uprisings and insurrections, weve been able to successfully integrate ourselves into British Society. We had to fight to do that. We have achieved that and that is a huge change. So why do you still say that racism is very much part of the cultural dna of this country . You yourself have just said. I mean, look at our government four of the highest offices in the land are held by people of colour. Under the former Prime Minister liz truss, we had seven. There are none in germany, spain, portugal, just two minor ministerial posts in france. The United Kingdom is doing pretty well. Well, were ahead of europe, for sure. Yeah. But thats good, isnt it . Thats good. Im not saying thats bad, but it doesnt mean that, you know, weve reached the end of the road. There are enormous challenges still out there for us to confront. Like what, though . Like institutional racism that permeates every Major Institution in this country, from the police force. I think there was a recent report by baroness. Yes, there was, by baroness louise casey in march, which looked into the police. And that was the fourth or fifth one over a period of about a0 years that arrived at the same conclusion the judicial system, the health service. Yeah. But the government is. Education. Yeah, well, lets look at police and the legal system because, i mean, the government is trying to get to grips with this problem. And louise casey, youre quite right, said in her review that there was institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia in the police force. The metropolitan Police Commissioner of london, sir mark rowley, would not accept the term institutional racism, which he says has become politicised and ambiguous, but he did accept that there are systemic failings that create bias. So, i mean, his words matter, surely . And also, wejudge him by the actions. Commissioners of police have been saying all these kind of things, you know, for years, but nothing seems to change. There is a deep culture embedded, culture of impunity within the metropolitan police force and other institutions in this country. I dont know how were going to achieve real meaningful change. Are we going to have another commission. A commission of inquiry that makes recommendations and then were back to square one . I accept that it may be difficult to do something about it, but if you look at the stop and search disparity between the black and white ethnic groups in the uk, its decreased substantially from nearly nine times higher in the year ending march 2020 to five times higher two years later. Well, it shouldnt be. It shouldnt be five times higher, should it . But, i mean, theres progress. Youve got to accept that its going in the right direction, the movement of travel. Another one, weve got an overhaul in the legal system. Thejustice minister mike freer says the goals are broader. Legal profession. In breaking down barriers and boosting eligibility is important as we recruit more diversejudges. Yes, well, lets wait and see what happens, because im all for having, you know, judges from ethnic minorities or whatever, but will that change anything, you know . But what can we do to change it . If theyre in situ. I dont have the solutions. Positive discrimination . I dont believe in positive discrimination. As i said to someone the other day, james brown, the american soul singer, had a tune called say it loud im black and im proud, and he has a line where he says, i dont want nobody to give me nothing. Open up the doors, ill get it myself. But does it really work . Cos im just going to go back to the police, tell you what neil basu, whos a Senior Police officer of indian heritage, says. The dial has barely moved on recruiting black and ethnic minority officers. He says, black men and women dont want tojoin, and if they do, its harder for them to get promoted. You cant just sit there, open the door and just hope that something will happen. You need to perhaps push it, dont you . And successive governments have failed. To take the initiative to bring about the fundamental changes that are needed. Should the black community perhaps be more receptive to joining the police force and wanting to change things from within, like neil basu . Um. People willjoin the police force. I dont think theyre going to bejoining in huge numbers, but they need to set their house in order first before, you know, your average young black person could think, well, this is a place where i could have a meaningful career. So when i asked you whether you deal with contemporary issues in your new book time come, im thinking of the windrush scandal. Of course, that was the big ship on which many caribbean immigrants came to the United Kingdom and, in 2018, we had in the uk what was called the windrush scandal, when people of caribbean origin were either detained, deported or threatened with deportation. The british Prime Minister at the time, theresa may, apologised, although we still see that only a fraction of people have received the compensation that they were promised. Its about 13 out of 11,500 eligible claimants. But have you tackled that topic in any shape or form . Not in the book, no. I dont even like to use the word Windrush Generation because its a misleading term. There was one ship called the windrush that had caribbean migrants on it, but there were ships before and after. And, you know, a lot of people, black people in this country are excluded from. You know, under this windrush umbrella. I think the government is very cynical by, you know, giving us windrush day, and all these sort of windrush events as an attempt to mollify the black community and to cover up the shameful. The shameful way that theyve dealt with people from my parents generation. Sure. It didnt play very well, naturally, the scandal, in the caribbean, and weve seen now with the commonwealth where there are 56 countries, 15 of them have king charles as head of state. But jamaica, where you were born, is set on the path to becoming a republic. In 2022, an opinion poll said 56 are in favour of becoming a republic. Would you welcome such a move . I would welcome such a move. I think its. It� s ridiculous that in the 21st century, um. The king of england or the queen of england should be the head of any independent state. Are you saying that wearing your british hat or yourjamaican hat . Both. They chuckle. 0h, right, 0k. So clearly your republican views very much there. But what about the commonwealth, which is, of course, a different matter . Jamaicas not discussing leaving the commonwealth, but what about the commonwealths future . Because people are beginning to question it. For example, professor Philip Murphy at London University says, i think perhaps the commonwealth has historically run its course and what youre really seeing now is the ghost of an organisation. Does that have any relevance, in your view . I dont know. It seems to be a club of former colonies that enables britain to have status in the global. In Global Affairs as an ex colonial power. But the geopolitical map is changing all the time and has changed significantly after the end of the cold war, so how relevant the commonwealth will be in the future, i really dont know. All right. You talk of status and, actually, you are a poet of great status. You, more than 20 years ago, were the second poet and the first black poet ever to get your works published in penguin� s modern classics, a huge recognition of your achievements. How did that make you feel . Did you feel part of the establishment, in a way . Not at all. But i was amused by the expression of outrage by the gatekeepers of the english Literary Canon that i had been published in the penguin modern classics list. You know, the story. It was a story on the front page of the daily telegraph. Which is a right of centre newspaper. The right of centre newspaper. And i thought, my god, are they serious, really . I never, ever set out to seek validation from the gatekeepers of the english Literary Canon. I was always a part of the alternative poetry scene in this country. Right. Finally, and very briefly, youve described yourself as a member of the rebel generation. How would you describe the current generation of black britons . Um. The black lives matter generation. They have a greater sense of belonging than i. Than my generation ever did. And they dont have to fight some of the battles that my generation had to fight, and im very hopeful for the future. Linton kwesijohnson, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. Many parts of the country have had no significant rain for the past two weeks, and there is none for the next ten days. We are playing with the cloud, there is a bit coming in and sticking around across Eastern England in particular during thursday, but there is drier air following around the top of the area of High Pressure coming in off the north sea, so prospects better in terms of sunshine. The cloud we start with on friday will be thinner and its more likely to break more readily, and sunshine will develop across the whole of england and wales, Notjust Scotland and Northern Ireland. Not much cloud come the afternoon. Breezy in the south east and the wind off the north sea, so cool on the coast, but with more sunshine, the temperatures will reach 21 more widely. Into the weekend, the same area of High Pressure, its not going anywhere through saturday and sunday, sitting in the same place, seeing more isobars in the south, winding through the channel and the south east of england. Saturday should be dry and sunny, and across many parts of the country, but this time we have more cloud on the north coast of Northern Ireland and in the far north of scotland. So here it will be cooler. With the sunshine around and light winds for many away from the south and south east, the temperature is creeping up day by day, possibly 23. Second half of the weekend, still cloud in the far north of scotland, but its rolling down the north sea, hugging some of the north sea coast in the north east of england, a bit cooler here. Otherwise temperatures similar 0therwise temperatures similar on sunday in the sunshine. Reaching 23, possibly 2a in Western Areas of scotland. Early next week, High Pressure. The pattern isnt changing very much, so all the wet weather continues to be through the mediterranean. Although even here, its becoming a little less wet next week. More cloud coming our way through the north sea, so going back to the weather weve seen over the past couple of days, keeping some eastern coastal counties a little more cool and cloudy, but again west is going to be best in terms of the sunshine and the highest temperatures. As you can see, the same area of High Pressure, cloud within it, coming in off the north sea, some cloudy skies. That will move further inland overnight across a good part of england and perhaps scotland, and through the day it will gradually retreat to the eastern coastal areas where the breeze comes in off the north east. Again more cool and cloudy in eastern areas, warmer with more sunshine towards the west. It is a familiar story. Is it going to change . 0ur usual preferred model and preferred story, High Pressure still there, stronger winds in the south and south east at times, and may be a Weather Front on the tail end of the area of low pressure coming into the north west. Not all models in total agreement, we know there has been a lot of rain in the south of europe, and one Computer Model actually pushes the lower pressure and some rain towards the far south of the uk later next week. That looks less likely to happen. You can see a bit of rain in london on wednesday, totally overdoing it. Mightjust be a spot of drizzle because there is more cloud, but essentially it is dry, many parts of the country, feeling pleasantly warm in the sunshine, and no significant rain on the horizon. Live from london. This is bbc news. The Us Senate Approves a bill to suspend the Government Debt limit, averting the threat of an unprecedented default. 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