My guest is shaharzad akbar, former chairperson of afghanistans independent human rights commission. What would morally acceptable engagement look like . Shaharzad akbar, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Its good to be here. Its good to have you here. If i may, im going to start with some powerful words of yours. You wrote recently, i spend every day with a fire burning in my heart with the pain of injustice that women in my country face. Of course, since the taliban takeover, youre no longer living in your homeland. Youre living here in the uk. Does that actually, in a funny sort of way, intensify the pain you feel . Absolutely. I mean, every day i feel like im living two different realities at the same time. I wake up in oxford, where im a visiting scholar and its green and beautiful and people are going on about their lives. And then im all day long following the situation back home, talking to colleagues, monitoring the human rights violations. And during the day, several times, i have to kind of stop myself and remind myself to be more present, especially around my children, but also not to be paralysed by the pain, because pain can be paralysing, it can take away action. You talk about monitoring the situation every hour of every day and of talking to colleagues. Im just wondering how you can talk to colleagues working on human rights issues inside afghanistan when you yourself made that decision, Fateful Decision in august of 2021, that it was no longer safe to be a senior human rights figure in afghanistan, with the taliban literally moving their troops onto the streets of kabul. How can anybody be safe doing that work . Its really not safe. And its really. We have to take a lot of measures. And in working with people inside afghanistan and working with and standing with people who are doing human rights work inside afghanistan. Whats really inspiring to me is that people want to do this work despite the risk. They want the world to know the truth of whats going on inside. But are they doing it undercover . Absolutely. Because you, of course, had this independent human rights commission, which you were the head of. Yes. But these days, it all has to be underground. Yes, absolutely. I mean, we. We all have to take so many measures. I dont, for instance, i. Because of my profile, dont talk to. I try to avoid talking directly to people inside the country a lot of times. And its absolutely necessary because it will put them at risk. And everyone who. Who shares information with us, they have to take a lot of measures in gathering and collecting that information. And thats becoming extremely difficult. 0ne trend that we see, obviously, is how hard it is to actually know whats going on inside the country and document whats going on, because taliban are doing everything they can to limit that access, to not let people talk to Human Rights Defenders orjournalists or anyone. I imagine there is a huge sort of moral burden of responsibility on your shoulders as well, because, of course, the taliban has obviously long since closed down your independent commission. Yes. But youve created this new organisation Rawadari Which, as you say, connects with Human Rights Defenders on the ground. But you know all too well that the taliban has no compunction. Yes. About using violence to suppress human rights work. You saw it when you still lived in afghanistan before 2021. Yes. You lost very dear colleagues. Yes. I mean, how do you live with the possibility that could happen again . Yes, thats my worst nightmare. We. I have to think every day about the fact that our reports, our monitoring is important, but it doesnt come even close to. To. To us taking any risk to put anyone in any harm. So do no harm. Every day i think about this, how do we do this responsibly, especially as people from exile, especially as a situation doesnt impact me, my family, my. My immediate family and my colleagues who are outside afghanistan. It impacts the people in the country. So i think being in exile and being diaspora and acting responsibly, thats something that we talk a lot about and we try to be very mindful of because very easily, not only in terms of monitoring whats going on, but also advocating for policies. You could very easily be advocating for policies that dont impact you, but impact people who are living the situation every day. Indeed. And that brings me to your practical advice, if i can put it that way, to afghan girls and women. Much of your focus right now is one on what you call and indeed many others call Gender Apartheid. Yes. Being practised by the Taliban Regime. The fact is that for more than 600 days now, girls have not been allowed to go to secondary school. Girls are banned from university, women are banned from many workplaces. Erm, is it your advice to women. But lets start with girls, actually. Is it your advice to girls that if underground secret schooling is available, they should try and be part of it . I am very actually hesitant to advise girls and women inside the country because i am following the situation but i know that i dont know as much as they know and that there are specific contexts. So the way we work in rawadari is we always ask for advice. What do you think we should advocate for . What works for you . And the truth is that Different Things work for different people. Women inside afghanistan are resisting in many different ways. Some of them are pursuing education. Some of them are going on the streets. Trying to negotiate with the taliban and find a way to kind of protect their own work through these negotiations. And i think. Thats fascinating. What do you think of that as a strategy . I think all those strategies are valid. I think the women of my country are strong and inspirational and they are doing what works for them. And as someone who lives outside, im very hesitant to say this is better, this strategy is better than that. Im also very hesitant to tell people dont protest because im not in their shoes. But the fact is that there are people who are protesting and there are people who are negotiating. And. And i think it makes sense in the context of whats going on, because people are trying to preserve light in any way they can. You know, they are, especially women, they are surrounded by darkness. They are unable to live their lives and aspirations. And so they are trying to do what it takes to stay alive beyond just breathing, to kind of have a Sense Of Agency and power in a very difficult situation. Yeah. 0ne phrase that stuck with me that you used is describing afghanistan as a graveyard for the dreams of women and girls. Youve said you find it very hard when you are talking to them to offer them hope. Yes. It sounds to me in a way, theyre perhaps offering you a little bit more hope than youre offering them. Yes, i think their resistance because the courage that they have, i cant even imagine, stephen, i cant imagine me going on the street and risking my life in that way that women in afghanistan are doing because i. We. I read Survivor Testimonies of how taliban treat not only protesters, but their husbands, their brothers, their family members. It takes incredible courage to do that. And so when i talk to them, i. Their. Their stories about how they are finding ways to continue is always an inspiration, is always hope. And for me they ask me, when will things change . And i dont have an answer. And thats. That� s really difficult. You have said that what you want the International Community to focus upon is accountability and justice for what you insist are actually crimes against humanity, in this case, crimes against females. Yeah. Theres that phrase, again, genderapartheid. Do you actually think it would be helpful to the people, but particularly to the Women Of Afghanistan, to pursue the Taliban Regime in, for example, the International Criminal court . Yes, i do believe. I dont think it will immediately change things for women inside the country. I dont think, for instance, taking taliban to court will. Then the next day well see schools reopening. But i do think that it sends a message to the Women Of Afghanistan that the crimes against them are not being normalised, that its not ok. The world knows this is not ok, this is not acceptable. Because remember, stephen, in the context of afghanistan, taliban are trying to also give messages to the afghan population. And the message that they are giving is, oh, im meeting this delegation of the british politicians, which means the world is slowly recognising that we were just, this war was just, we are the winners. Everything that we do, they understand that the decisions that we make, policies that we make, are our internal affairs, their domestic affairs. Well, i do want to get to a discussion of what engagement with the taliban should look like in a second. But before we get to engagement, i want to just stick with this idea of the tough stand you think that must be made, including in International Institutions like the International Criminal court. Im just wondering whether you would acknowledge there might be a danger of playing into a narrative that, frankly, notjust the taliban spins, but others around the world spin about the arrogance and the hypocrisy, the moral failings of the west when they use institutions like the icc to impose their will on those that dont share the wests view of the way the world should work. And im thinking that this sort of message comes from. You could say it comes from the kremlin, it comes from some leaders in africa, and maybe the taliban will find some sort of means of reaching an audience with that message. Absolutely. Taliban can utilise that message in talking to their followers. But lets remember that. Multiple things can be true at the same time. The fact is that the International Accountability mechanisms, they are politically biased. This is true, because i also want accountability for the allegations of abuse by American Forces in afghanistan. I know thats not going to happen soon. That doesnt mean ill stop asking for it. There were abuses. There was torture. There was night raids. And people need to be held accountable. And thats part of the reason why taliban are back in power, that culture of impunity. But this impunity has been going on for over a0 years in afghanistan with soviet forces, with mujahideen, then with taliban, International Forces and afghan forces, and, again, taliban. And i think we have to break the cycle of impunity if we want peace in afghanistan. And, yes, i want icc to look into crimes against humanity of taliban. But also, in an ideal situation, i want icc to look at all of its mandate, to look at what americans did in afghanistan as well and British Forces did in afghanistan as well. So i thinkjustice. Afghans need justice. We have been Waiting Forjustice for a very long time. And taliban also should be held to account. The situation in the country today, though, is clearly one of urgent, urgent need for humanitarian assistance, so lets get to the nature of the engagement with the International Community that you think is acceptable. You know, when you have a situation where two thirds of afghans are in desperate need of International Aid to keep them alive, where 900,000, almost, children are suffering from severe malnutrition, the united nations, the International Community, must, must it not, engage in terms of immediate assistance . Absolutely. There needs to be more humanitarian aid to afghanistan, not less. Winter is coming, and im concerned every day about what the winter will bring. I mean, the past two years, we have been concerned, and the fact that we have not seen Mass Starvation is thanks to the social fabric of afghanistan and the fact that families and communities help each other, that afghans who are outside afghanistan are helping their families and communities. Its not thanks to just humanitarian aid, because humanitarian aid always has been below the level thats required. I mean, un is constantly telling us that they are not meeting the pledges, they are falling behind. So when we talk about engagement, first, do more, you know, give more humanitarian assistance. And what if the united nations, as it has been told for months now, is told by the Taliban Regime that they can no longer employ female staff . How do you think the un should respond to that . Yes, thats a very tough question, one that i struggle with every day. I do think that the un and the International Community as a whole, the region, the western countries and un institutions, they have a higher chance of upholding humanitarian principles, which includes Non Discrimination on the basis of gender, of women working for these institutions, if they act in a more cohesive way. What i see thats discouraging is that different un entities adopt different strategies. I understand that its because they want to deliver humanitarian aid, but. The less cohesion we see in the response, then there is more room for taliban to implement their policies of Gender Apartheid because they say, oh, ok, if sweden doesnt agree with us, at least china does, or pakistan does, or if unicef doesnt carry out, you know, its operations according to our policies, then another un agency does. And so the more discord, the less victory. Bottom line, as martin griffiths, top Un Humanitarian Affairs chief, put it, the un, the humanitarian community does not go on strike, he said. Where exceptions exist, we still have to work. You understand that mindset . I fully understand that mindset. But i also think that if there was a discrimination made on any basis. I mean, the un itself admitted to this. This is the first time they have been told in a situation, they have been told, you know, half of your workforce or almost half of your workforce cant come to work. I think the un should ask itself really critically, how have you been engaging with the taliban for the two years to get to this . You know, because, one, whats the purpose of engagement . The purpose of engagement is not onlyjust delivery of humanitarian aid, but also upholding some principles. Right . And if the engagement the way its going is failing, what needs to be revisited . Im not saying cut humanitarian aid and closing offices, but i think this is notjust about talibans policies, its also about the failure of un to act in alliance with its own principles. Are you prepared to give the taliban some credit in areas that actually really do matter to the welfare of the Afghan People . One particular one would be their determined effort to stem the flow of poppy, opium, drugs from afghanistan into the international market. It seems, according to Satellite Imagery and a special bbc investigation as well, that there has been a massive drop in the cultivation of poppy in some of the most important provinces to that poppy production i mean, down in one province from 129,000 hectares of poppy in 2022 to just 740 hectares in april 2023. Thats a massive achievement. And it matters. Well, yes, it matters. But also, when i look at Something Like that, my colleagues, what they look at is, how is this impacting the livelihoods of the people . And whats the plan there . You know, whats being offered . Because this is actually impacting the livelihoods of actual farmers, families, communities, the poor, so whats being offered as an alternative . Does the taliban have a plan . Is it sustainable . And the other question is, how are these policies being enacted . We know that talibans main way of enacting their policies is through force, through beatings, through raids, through, like, full attacks on peoples human dignity. There is no properjustice system. So this is. Truth, but its an aspect of the truth. Its not the full truth. And id like to see how this plays out in two, three years, in terms of sustainability of this policy, when no alternatives are being offered to communities. There are some voices in the International Community, in the west, who are now thinking that it is time to, rather than just focusing on the negative, on the isolation and on the potential punishment of the taliban, to focus on a more constructive approach. There was an editorial in the economist a few months ago, saying, isolating the mullahs is not working. The west needs a more constructive approach. And it should be said that you yourself, when you were still in kabul and working quite closely with the ashraf ghani government, you actually were involved in a dialogue with the taliban. So do you think there is any merit in the argument saying positive engagement with the taliban actually helps the more moderate voices within the regime, it could yield very positive results in the long run . Im not sure about positive results, but im not against engagement. What i want to clarify is that the engagement should be principled engagement. And its notjust the engagement of International Community with the taliban, right . The fact is taliban are not engaged with afghans. Taliban are not the only reality of afghanistan. People are fleeing afghanistan every day. Its not just the former government officials. Teachers, doctors, people are leaving afghanistan because their daughters cant go to school. And when they protest this in a very civil manner, the response from taliban is putting them injail, detaining them, torturing them, threatening them, so. But my question is about, perhaps, the diversity within the taliban. We are told by those who know the taliban well that there are senior figures who oppose the blanket ban on secondary education and University Education for girls. And you may well have spoken to some of them in the past. So my question is whether trying to engage actually strengthens those forces within the taliban. Im really not sure about the merits of that policy. Imean, again. Its fine to engage. Its good to talk to the taliban. And its good to. More importantly, its important to ask the taliban to talk to other afghans. Why are these so called more moderate voices so unwilling to speak with a wider group of afghans . Afghans within the country. Forget the diaspora. I mean, people within the country religious scholars or teachers, university teachers, or the protesters who are walking in the street when they want to bring their ideas to the table, they are being completely punished for that and brutally suppressed for that. So if these moderates are moderate and talking to the International Community, why are they not moderates and engaging with afghans, with a wide group of afghans Diverse Group of afghans themselves . But do you think the diplomatic mood music is shifting . Im sure you noted that at the very end ofjuly, representatives of the taliban met us officials for the first time, actually, since the Taliban Takeover In The Summer of 2021. Apparently, they discussed a way forward for their relations. They certainly didnt talk about normalising relations, but they did, it seems, talk very broadly about how there might be a pathway to unfreezing some afghan assets. Do you, as a senior human rights voice outside of the country right now, welcome that or view that with alarm . I view anything that us does in regard to afghanistan with alarm. Do you . Yes, i have a bad experience of the us policy in afghanistan. I think the us is only interested in its own. Domestic. It pursues its own domestic political interests. I dont believe human rights is at the centre of us� s foreign policy, as the Us Government claims. I think biden is very perhaps interested in afghanistan being forgotten, so that. Or maybe theyre worried about china and the fact that, as we saw recently with a major mining deal, where the Chinese Companies appear to be desperate to get their hands on afghan minerals, that the United States sees a geopolitical reason to begin to find a more creative relationship with the taliban. It could be. I mean, im notan expert on any of this. But my sense, my response to Us Engagement with the taliban always is, i dont think thats going to be in afg hanistan� s interest. Im not. At the very least, im not sure its in the interest of the Afghan People thats motivating this engagement. Is it about their hostages . Is it about some Security Concerns that they have . I genuinely dont believe that the Human Rights Situation in afghanistan is on top of the agenda in any of those discussions, genuinely. You. When you left in the summer of � 21, you said, i hope to be back soon. The fact is, youve now set up a Human Rights Organisation in exile Rawadari Which suggests to me maybe youve given up on the hope to be back soon. Have you . I havent given up. I dont think i can. I mean, i watch peoples photos, visiting afghanistan in the summer, and. No, i havent. I dont know when, but im really hoping that it will be soon and this will be short. There is part of me thats very rational, and i think about the fact that this will take longer than. I hope and expect. And there is another part of me that thinks, maybe i can do it. Maybe i can go back. Maybe its going to be safe to be back. So, yeah. Shaharzad akbar, we have to end there, but thank you for being on hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Hello, most of the week will be a story of sunshine and showers, we could see stormier weather wednesday into thursday. First, it has been quite windy so far and strong winds attached to these fronts, the strongest of the winds will clip the north east of scotland before easing. It leaves many of us with clear skies for monday. 12 to 15 degrees. Not a cold start but still some showers in the south east first thing. Some showers in central and Western Scotland and Northern Ireland in the rush hour and very few showers in the forecast on monday. Even if you see one, it should be a fleeting one. Only one or two in your day. For many across in england and wales, the day will be dry and 17 to 22 celsius. The breeze will strengthen into tuesday morning. Some showers and Thunder Storms pushing into Southern England and south eastern parts of wales. Tuesday we are drawing in this front and this one will work its way across many parts of england first thing in the morning. The risk of showers and Thunder Storms. Fewer showers and more dry weather. But some heavier showers for Northern Ireland and particularly in scotland in the afternoon. In the sunshine between the showers, again temperatures like monday around 16 to 22 celsius. As we go into the middle of week, all eyes are on this low pressure. It could be a stormy one, rattling in through wednesday and into wednesday night. Let me show you how things develop. It will be a quiet start for many. But cloud increases from the south and west and the rain pushes in and widespread gales developing in the afternoon and evening. Temperatures on the cool side where the winds are strong efs in the north. The position of that area of low pressure is open to question. But we could see wednesday into wednesday night winds around irish sea cost and Southern Scotland and north east england. The rain moving north. A Stormy Night Wednesday Into thursday and thursday although things turn quieter there could be some damage and travel disruption. Take care. Welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, im arunoday mukharji. The headlines. A Space Capsule carrying the largest Asteroid Sample ever collected lands safely in utah, which could shed new light on how planets were formed. France will end all Military Cooperation with niger and withdraw its ambassador and several other diplomats within hours, following a coup. The spanish town shaken Afterfake Naked Images of local girls, generated by artificial intelligence, are shared. And hosts china top the medal table after the first day of the asian games in hangzhou
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