This is bbc news, the headlines us president Electjoe Biden has complained that his Transition Team are facing what he called irresponsible obstruction from the Political Leadership at the department of defence. Mr biden said his staff were not getting adequate information and briefings on Key National Security matters. All three major us share indices have closed at record highs after donald trump signed into law, a massive coronavirus stimulus and Government Spending package. The rollout of more covid 19 vaccines and a post brexit trade deal are also helping to drive up investor sentiment. In the uk, the daily number of confirmed coronavirus cases has passed 40,000 for the First Time Since the outbreak of the pandemic. There were 41,385 new cases with 357 deaths in the last 2a hours, further increasing pressure on hospitals across the uk. Now on bbc news, its hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, over stephen sackur. No one better epitomises the strong man style of Political Leadership than president Rodrigo Duterte of the philippines. He has a visceral dislike of independent journalism he has a visceral dislike of independentjournalism and no one knows that better than my guest today. Maria ressa, founder of the rappler online news website. She hasjust founder of the rappler online news website. She has just been she has just been convicted of cyber libel in a case that has raised worldwide concern. Is press freedom being strangled by populist politics . Maria ressa in manila, welcome to hardtalk. Thanks for having me, steven finn. Lets start with your personal situation. You have, earlier this month, been convicted on this charge of cyber libel, as they are calling it. Is it changed things for you . Aside from the emotional rollercoaster and the fa ct we emotional rollercoaster and the fact we have crossed yet another divide, i think i am ready much on the same road i have been on for the last four yea rs have been on for the last four years which is really standing up years which is really standing upfor my years which is really standing up for my rights both as a filipino and as a journalist. You are on bail and i think your legal team have said they will be an appeal. Do you in any sense feel frightened right now . You know, stephen, i have one through this. When you have been under attack for four yea rs been under attack for four years as weve been, there have been all these stages. It is like the stages of grief was up in 2016, we were pummelled on social media. Exponential
attacks that are extremely visceral and takes you by surprise. The viciousness of it. And those same narratives in 2017 come out of governments mouse. President macri to himself again to equate journalist with criminal president duterte. And then i was president duterte. And then iwas in president duterte. And then i was in and out talking to officials and 2019, the filing officials and 2019, the filing of these cases, i have eight arrest warrant against me that we re arrest warrant against me that were filed that year. That was only last year. And i was arrested twice, detained once. I feel like alice in wonderland andi i feel like alice in wonderland and i am down in a rabid hot rabbit hole, i am going out and im going to walk out. This verdict that happened on cyber libel, a story we published before the law we allegedly violated, was even in effect cemented. This cements
it, 2016, they arejournalists 01 it, 2016, they arejournalists or criminals. In 2020 after the weaponisation of social media, the weaponisation of the law, 110w the weaponisation of the law, now i am convicted. Thats the death of a thousand cuts of our democracy. There is no doubt it is not just democracy. There is no doubt it is notjust you that has suffered from repressive tactics coming from government agencies. We can all see that but nonetheless, the notion that all sorts of freedom of expression are now curtailed and eliminated in the philippines surely isnt right, if one looks at your country today, there is still a multitude of diverse opinion across the spectrum of politics. In different platforms on the media. Not least rappler itself. After all, your website hasnt been shut down, it continues to this day, it has millions of eye balls o n day, it has millions of eyeballs on it every single month. The philippines is not
north korea, nothing like. Well, who would want to be north korea . Right . In the end, the philippines is also living under a climate of fear and violence stop in fact, when i last interviewed president duterte, when he was already president , i was one of four journalists that he gave an interview to in december of 2016, i asked interview to in december of 2016, iasked him interview to in december of 2016, i asked him that specifically i said, you know, mr president , now that you are in charge of actually protecting the constitution, is it necessary to use violence . And he said yes, he said its necessary to use violence and fear. So while you see what looks like a multitude of voices, imagine that those voices, imagine that those voices also have a damocles sword hanging over their heads. During a pandemic, people were, based on their posts on social media, people were arrested. I think there is a good veneer of
legality for all of these, but we certainly felt the walls closing in. In orderto we certainly felt the walls closing in. In order to be able to continue publishing as rappler, look what ive had to go through, im not a criminal, im just a journalist. Go through, im not a criminal, imjust ajournalist. I understand and my heart my show is called hard talks i have to take seriously the charges against you. Youve indicated that the cyber libel is the least of it, you still face allegations of, my goodness, what a list, fraud, tax evasion, receiving money from the cia, i mean, you could be in court for years and years to come. Well, the only thing i can say is that these charges, the eight criminal charges im facing, all into three buckets. The first is cyber libel, the second is a securities fraud and in that will throw in Foreign Ownership of foreign control, something violating, something called the anti w law. And then the third s tax
evasion and again, just like the first case, we were charged with tax evasion about six months after we received an award from the government for being a top corporate taxpayer. Then a little more than six months later, we are tax evaders, pushed on social media, and then in addition to that, to make this charge, they actually had to redefine rapplerfrom actually had to redefine rappler from News Organisation toa rappler from News Organisation to a dealer in securities. So. Sure, lets do hard to talk. So. Sure, lets do hard to talk. Hardtalk. So. Sure, lets do hard to talk. Hardtalk. As a reporter, as someone talk. Hardtalk. As a reporter, as someone running a News Organisation, give the government and the president of the respect that the office demands, i think, the respect that the office demands, ithink, but the respect that the office demands, i think, but the kinds of death by a thousand cuts that weve had to absorb just to do ourjobs, just to continue doing investigative reporting, ive never lived through anything like this and i covered south east asias
transition from authoritarian 1 man rule to democracy, starting here in the philippines in 1986. Maria ressa, do you think the filipino public care about your fate and indeed the fate of other journalist in fate and indeed the fate of otherjournalist in your country . One looks at dutertes Approval Ratings and they are consistently above 80 approval. The kind of a figure that other leaders around the world could only dream about, and the filipino public are well aware of what he is doing to the press. I think there are two a nswers to the press. I think there are two answers to that question. The first one other kinds of Propaganda Machines and how it uses technology to essentially uses technology to essentially use it as a behavioural modification system, and i can accept i can explain that more later. The propaganda is exponential and it lifts, when you hear resident duterte is best, the defender of the poor, evenif best, the defender of the poor, even if it is the poor or the drunk dying in the war
drugs. The age of social media, statistical surveys havent been able to keep up with these shifts. The second one is do people care . Yes. And i can see that just based on people care . Yes. And i can see thatjust based on whats happened and i think this in particular in 2020, three things have happened. Weve had a pandemic. The lockdown, were just our 14th week of a very security driven militaristic lockdown. Its a lockdown where president duterte has told filipinos to stay at home and he told troops that if they come out, if we break quarantine, he told them and this is a direct quote, he says shoot them dead. This is a direct quote, he says shoot them dead. That did happen. I missed more than 60,000 people have been arrested during this time period and because were lockdown, i think theres more introspection. Im going to stop there, if i made was a big it is stop there, if i made was a big it isa stop there, if i made was a big it is a fascinating but i am wondering what your evidences. Iam wondering what your evidences. I am looking the latest polling, there is a company who you know well, weather stations the filipino public approves, as a whole, president dutertes campaign against illegal drugs. They still seem to favour him despite all the controversy about his latest Anti Terrorist law which you and others have described as a fundamental threat to freedom of expression. That is the third one i was going to say, this anti terrible. Third one i was going to say, this anti terrible. You have to get real, in a way. Everything you say about what duterte is doing is not deterring a big majority of filipinos giving him their backing. You have to look at the surveys and talk to the people who do the surveys. The biggest question you have to ask them is how do you account forfear . Ask them is how do you account for fear . Before we went into lockdown, this was a question i asked all the time because
these surveys are done in the homes of people, they have their numbers, they know who they are, they are normally, their names are given by their village chiefs. How do you account forfear . Village chiefs. How do you account for fear . Not saying that president duterte isnt popular because i think his home spun, this kind of, you know, the guy you want to have a beer with, the grandfather you want to have a beer with, thatis you want to have a beer with, that is the narrative, i think that is the narrative, i think thatis that is the narrative, i think that is appealing. But having said that, how do you count for fear . Interesting question and that plants in my mind a different idea about fear. Maybe for you and lets be honest, for a relatively elite personality living in a nice pa rt personality living in a nice part of manila was perhaps more security than most filipinos, it is easy for you to focus on threats to freedom which you feel and the fear you talk about, but what about the other filipinos whose fear is much more street level . It is more
about the insecurity, and your rappler website has made a point of investigating the drugs war that duterte has initiated for the last 3 four yea rs. Initiated for the last 3 four years. But the drugs war, according to filipinos, has made their streets safer. Yes, they look at the fact that hardly any security personnel have been prosecuted for egregious use of violence, but they also look at the fact that thousands of drug dealers have been taken off the streets and they like that. I think thats definitely the narrative, but if you dig deeper into the surveys , if you dig deeper into the surveys, number one, and this is based on the un report on the one just released a few weeks ago, you can see that the people who died in the drug war other poor, and you can also see in those surveys, it is not just the social weather stations, it is also pulse asia, you can see that the president dutertes support amongst the poorest of the poon amongst the poorest of the poor, has dwindled significantly compared to the people who are wealthy you can
cut the deals. You know, i a lwa ys cut the deals. You know, i always say that there are three things that really characterise living under the age of duterte. You have to do one of these things, the three seas, corrupt, coerce or co opt. And it isnt the poor who died at. Did three cs put up in fa ct, did three cs put up in fact, it is the poor that suffers the most. If you look at the brutal drug war, it depends who you talk to because of you talk to the police, well, maybe 6000 7000 people have died. They admit to that stop and then you talk to the human Rights Groups and they say it is tens of thousands. 0ur say it is tens of thousands. Our own Philippine Commission on human rights places the number at on human rights places the numberat 27,000. On human rights places the number at 27,000. That was several months ago. So no, i think you have to look much deeper into the numbers, look at which of the demographics and look at who is winning and who is losing. Let me ask you a personal question and be brief if you can. As the boss of
rappler which is known for its investigations, including of the drugs war, now think very carefully before commissioning any reporter to dig into what is happening on the streets . I am mindful that more than 100 journalists have been killed in the last couple of decades in the last couple of decades in the philippines. It is dangerous being a journalist. Are you now fearful for your own staff . That is a really good question. In a way, weve been forged in fire and i think the biggest lesson we have learned in the last four years is that with this damocles a sword hanging over your head, if you let it affect you then youve lost it and what weve done is, weve doubled down on our investigative reporting. We know its really important. We know its really important. We know we have to do this now so dont actually make the assignments in rappler but what i see assignments in rappler but what isee in assignments in rappler but what i see in our team is this
renewed commitment. They re tirelessly and we have a young team. Rapplers about 100 people, were 63 women. The media age is 23 years median age is 23 years old. The reported that president duterte lead, basically faced her down, she was 26 years old when he did that so no, i think, i dont have to encourage rappler to do investigative reporting, i think theyre doing it on their own and all im trying to do is keep the sky from falling. Lets talk about International Reaction and response to what is going on in the philippines right now. We have International Ngo there Like Amnesty International condemning what they call a policy of large scale murdering, murdering enterprise, they call it. The Human Rights Office referred to near impunity offered to Philippine Security personnel. What we also see is that
consistently, over the last four years, donald trump, for example, has referred to president duterte as his friend. We see a very close relationship developing between duterte and the chinese government. And we see, for example, that the International Criminal court, which appeared to be ready to investigate what was happening in the philippines, appears to have been neutralised because the philippines has refused to recognise its legitimacy. The international community, frankly, has let you down, hasnt it . I wouldnt say that. What i would say is that the philippines is punching above its weight in terms of determining the geopolitical power balance. You know, it really is, when president duterte took office by september, so, he took office in may 2016, by september 2016 he was in beijing and he announced a pivot of the philippines, a key country in the South China Sea conflict, right, what we call the west philippines see, he announced that the philippines would pivot away from the us to china
and russia. He tosses this in. What is interesting is what happened when the United States pushed against what was happening in the drug war. Last december, the Us Government actually took away the visa of the man who was, who carried out the drug war, he was the Philippine National police chief. He is now a senator. They took away his visa and the Philippine Government was so upset that they can solve the pa rt upset that they can solve the part of a military base agreement that has gone on for agreement that has gone on for a long time. So the visiting forces agreement, the government cancelled it. But here we go again. Just this month, the Philippine Government gave notice that they were not going to cancel that, and it is back up. So, my
point, well, you are making my point, well, you are making my point for me, that whatever the detail of difficulties, geostrategic difficulties in relationships between the us and the philippines, india and there seems to be a of brotherhood feeling between donald trump and Rodrigo Duterte, and it is not surprising, given that, you could argue, they seem to be populists of a similar style. They have contempt for much of the media, which we have discussed. They both seem to see journalists as enemies of the people and it is true to say they have both found a way of communicating through social media, through using twitter and facebook platforms in a way that, politically, is extraordinarily successful. That, politically, is extraordinarily successfullj would extraordinarily successful. would agree with you. And i think part of what is important, but let me first a nswer important, but let me first answer that question you asked, which is, did it let me down, no, absolutely not. I understand the geopolitical power play at work here, but i think what you are seeing in the philippines and the us is very similar to what is
happening in many democracies around the world, including in the uk, and this is the role of technology. Facebook is our internet in the philippines. There are 71 million filipinos. We spent the most time on the internet and on social media globally, and i think it is the fifth year running. That is hootsuite, that is their number. What is happening is this kind of astroturf thing of manufactured consensus, the manipulation of the public at mass scale using facebook has happened here in the philippines. You asked about the popularity of president duterte. That is partly buoyed bya duterte. That is partly buoyed by a Propaganda Machine that we got clobbered for exposing in 2016. Maria, i am going to have to interrupted, because what you are suggesting is that democracy doesnt work anymore. If you are talking about manipulated public opinion, as you have just done, then you
are undermining and delegitimising the notion that the people have a right to choose their governors. If you are saying that their opinions are saying that their opinions are somehow fake or false, where is democracy . That is exactly what im saying, that is essentially dead, and part of what killed it our social media platforms that have come behaviour modification systems. If you look at what has happened all around the world, starting in 2017, studies have shown that cheap armies on social media are cutting down democracy, rolling it back. In 2017, it was in 27 countries. In 2018 2017, it was in 27 countries. In 2018 double. In 2019 it was up to 70 countries. These are Different Research studies, right . So the problem we have. If i may right . So the problem we have. Ifi may say right . So the problem we have. If i may say so, this is dangerous territory, because you are suggesting to me that president duterte, indian, is illegitimate and does not have a mandate, when patently, this man has an extraordinary mandate. That is not what i am
saying. What im saying is, first of all, he doesnt have extraordinary mandate. He was one of five president ial candidates, out of 61 or 62 million voters he had 16 million voters he had 16 million votes. That is what elected president duterte. That is ok. Of the five, he won the majority of the five. Beyond that, what i am saying is that the new information ecosystem actually allows lies laced with anger and hate to spread faster than facts. When i lies told a million times in todays age, when i am attacked a million times and called criminal, criminal, criminal, it becomes a fact. And this is what is wrong. Because if you dont have integrity of facts, you cannot have integrity of markets and you certainly cant have integrity of elections. This is the problem with democracy. A final thought, then. I am very mindful that he returned to the philippines from the United States after the people power revolution of,
i believe it was 1986, and you made your life in the philippines after that. There was so much hope around then, for a different kind of politics in your country. Here is what one filipino lawyer who moved to australia recently has written, jason lange check. He saysin written, jason lange check. He says in terms of corruption, the post people power governments became indistinguishable from the marcos regime. The only difference was the rhetoric of human rights and democracy, which people have increasingly come to regard as a sham. Isnt that the truth, that duterte is in power and so successful because the post people power politics of the philippines simply failed the people . think i would agree that post people power was a failure. We had endemic corruption, replaced one set of leaders with another, who then created their own. We have always had
eight oligarchs or families. The difference is this, right . The difference is this, right . The trickle down effect did trickle down. It was a perfect storm and this happened globally. It is part of the reason you are seeing a trend back to the form of, i would almost say fascism, because liberal democracy didnt deliver its promises. Having said that, we should not be moving the other direction and thatis moving the other direction and that is the challenge to every democracy here. Part of what has enabled but is social media. When the gatekeepers, the journalists and the News Organisations used to be gatekeepers, we kept the public sphere. We all agreed on the fa cts. Sphere. We all agreed on the facts. Now that the gatekeepers are tech companies, the abdication of that responsibility has had a huge impact on what we are seeing now, the growth of, i am almost going to say fascism all around the world. This is scary for me here in the philippines because we are one of the first
signatories for the un declaration of human rights, and yet i see filipinos, things i would have thought would be unbelievable, filipinos saying it is ok to kill, latinos saying it is ok but democracy doesnt work. Maybe it doesnt, but this is where i would like to see filipinos way in. We shouldnt look away, we should make an active choice, and when you see your rights getting pushed back, i personally saw my rights being violated when that happens, are we going to accept that . Because that will fundamentally change democracy. Maybe we should. I am just thinking, never mind the threat of present hanging over your head, you continue this fight . It is not just head, you continue this fight . It is notjust about prison. The journey is the battle, because i think there is so much more at stake. If it were just me i would be quiet. Why not . But there is so much at
sta ke for not . But there is so much at stake for us right now. I was a journalist in 1986 and i am a journalist in 1986 and i am a journalist today at my most senior, and i want to make sure that i do the right thing for journalism. Maria, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. Thanks for having me. A very frosty night out there in the glens of scotland. Temperatures are not far off 10 degrees celsius, and over the next few days, it certainly is going to be cold enough for further wintry weather. Not all of it pure snow, there will probably be some sleet around as well. Now, the cold air has spread across many parts of the continent. The point is its here to stay, so were not going to see a wave of milder air coming off the atlantic any time soon. Through the early hours, were expecting snow showers across parts of scotland and also across the pennines. You can see sub zero temperatures here, icy conditions in some areas as well. To the south of that, i think hit and miss showers. Now, this is what happens through the morning. The wintry weather, for some of us, spreads from the north into the north west of england, through parts of the midlands, parts of wales and quite possibly the south west. The snow showers continue across parts of scotland. Elsewhere in the uk on tuesday, its going to be a mixture of sunny spells and just the odd fleeting shower, perhaps wintry. And then through the course of tuesday evening, you can see snow and wintry showers continue there in scotland. Elsewhere, its going to be largely clear. Here is the forecast for tuesday night into wednesday, and we expect the next spell of wintry weather coming in from the north west, moving across ireland and then eventually into wales. Now, again, theres a lot of cold air sitting across the uk. Just hints of something a bit milder nibbling in the south west, but thats pretty much it. On wednesday, the next spell of wintry weather moves across ireland through the early hours, and then the thinking is it will move into wales. Remember, theres a lot of cold air sitting on top of the uk, and then that wintry weather spreads quite possibly into the midlands, the south west and the south. North of that, its clearer, some snow across scotland, and temperatures around freezing. Notice that over the next few days, heading towards the end of the week, we see certain areas of rain and snow mixed in, circling in areas, so there could be some substantial snow towards the end of the week. I say substantial, a covering. This is what it looks like, a sneak peek of new years day, chilly and dry for now. Bye bye. This is bbc news. Im sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Us president Electjoe Biden complains his Transition Team are not getting co operation from the Trump Administration on crucial matters Like National security. We have encountered roadblocks from the Political Leadership from the Political Leadership from the Political Leadership from the department of defence and the office. The number of patients being treated for coronavirus in englands hospitals is at its highest level since the pandemic began. In india, how the virus is having a devastating impact on communities already hit by poverty and hardship. For many of us, the enduring
image of what the pandemic