Venezuelans have now on bbc news, hardtalk. Been forced to do. Not just people involved in politics but 5. 5 million venezuela ns have been forced to leave venezuela. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. I well remember in 2017, being with your mother and shouting a sort of semi interview with you over the prison fence when you were sitting in your prison cell and you talked to me then about your determination to fight for freedom and democracy and Fair Elections in venezuela. The the venezuelan government is keen to bring down president the fact that you have chosen to flee and you are now Nicholas Medeiros to be my in spain suggests to me guest is the leader of the that you feel a sense of failure and defeat . Popular opposition party, and last month he escape from venezuela and found refuge in well, thats not spain. Is that the action of a the way i see it. Man who has lost faith in the 00 01 48,282 2147483051 37 39,785 oppositions ability to win its 2147483051 37 39,785 4294966103 13 29,430 struggle . Mandela once said, we who fight for freedom dont choose the terrain in which we fight. The terrain in which we fight is chosen by the oppressor, not by the oppressed. So the circumstances, as i said before, have changed, and one of the Main Elements in order to bring about change in venezuela is to strengthen our International Coalition with our National Coalition and with the venezuelan people in order to bring about change. For many years, stephen, many years, almost 17 years, the world and many people in venezuela did not talk about the case of our country as a cruel dictatorship. Many people saw venezuela as a democracy, as a failing democracy, as a different democracy, but it was not until 2014 when it was clear to us and to the world that venezuela was no longer a democracy, so its not easy, its not easy to bring about change in north korea, its not easy to bring about change in cuba, its not easy to bring about change in nicaragua and it has not easy to bring about change in venezuela and the reason is because its a dictatorship, a cruel dictatorship that has been identified as being responsible for crimes against humanity by the un, and many other reasons that make venezuela a strong dictatorship against the people of venezuela. Of course, Nicolas Maduro and his regime deny many of the allegations that you lay at their door, but you say, there is no doubt from independent reporting, from a host of different human rights and other groups, that there is a repressive regime in caracas. You talk about struggle not being easy. Is it not important that you recognise that you and people in the leadership of opposition have made some major strategic mistakes . Of course, i mean, were human, stephen, and we are fighting a dictatorship, and of course we have made important, accurate decisions that have led us closer to freedom and other decisions have not been accurate decisions at the moment. So it has been a difficult process. A process in which we have been on top at times, close to freedom at times, and it has been a process in which we have been in the bottom without hope at times. Crosstalk. And all, all definitions of freedom, as pepe mujica, the president of paraguay once said of uruguay, once said, freedom is not about being happy, it is about having the capacity of falling and stepping back up to the fight for freedom and i believe that. The problem in venezuela, let me be clear about this, its not the opposition, its not the venezuelan people, the problem in venezuela are not the democratic parties, the problem in venezuela is a cruel and criminal dictatorship that kills people, that murders, that imprisons and that it has millions of people in a situation of hunger. So lets may be clear about that. The tragedy of venezuela has today a face, a clear face with a name Nicolas Maduro, who is responsible for the unfortunate fate of millions of venezuelans. As you know, on this show, we try to hold those in power to account. I interviewed president hugo chavez. Unfortunately, right now, im not able to interview president Nicolas Maduro, but myjob is also to hold you to account for the things you are responsible for. You have always, inside venezuela, been seen as a Opposition Leader who advocates confrontation, resistance, direct action. We saw that back in 2014 when you got hundreds of thousands of venezuelans on the streets, that ultimately failed. We saw it in 2019 when your protege, juan guaido, declared himself de facto president , as president of the National Assembly, something which you had advocated and which you discussed, perhaps through your wife as well, with the Trump Administration in washington. Was that decision, to make guaido the opposition president of venezuela, a mistake . Well, its not something that i decided, stephen. It was a decision made with the basis of our constitution and the reason why guaido was recognised, notjust by the Trump Administration and the us government, but by almost 60 countries in the world as the interim president , is because our constitution clearly states that if there is no legitimate president , the date in which they knew a president ial term starts then the president of the National Assembly assumes as the interim president until there are president ial elections and thats what happened in venezuela. What happened bin venezuela is not something that i or guaido or the Trump Administration imposed, no, its what the constitution mandates, that needed to happen at that moment and we are very grateful to all the countries, 60 countries in the world, the free world, europe, the region, recognises guaido as the legitimate president , in order to bring about free and Fair Elections to our country, and thats our fight, thats what we want, thats what we are calling for. Crosstalk. What we want is for the people of venezuela to decide who runs the country and who can be able to build the future of venezuelan people. Yeah, but if you and guaido had simply stuck with the advocacy of free and Fair Elections, i would understand your point but you obviously went much, much further, starting, for example, with april 30, 2019, you basically tried to launch an insurrection within the Venezuelan Security forces. You and guaido seemed very confident that you could topple maduro by getting the Security Forces on your side, and you failed, you got it wrong. Well, but we tried and we took a step forward and we. Crosstalk. But with respect, with respect, you just told me you are committed to democracy and elections. Yes, yes. And what you actually tried to do was engineer an internal coup detat . No, that is not true. What we were proposing that morning for that day was there was a protest with the people, the military and the police. I lived for four years in a military prison so i have had a lot of contact with the military of venezuela. Many of them have been responsible for committing crimes but most of them are people who also want change, and what happened that morning, it was the sentiment of many in the military that want to bring about change in venezuela, and what we were proposing was precisely to bring about a transition government with part of the structure that was in the regime and within nine months have a president ial election and the situation in venezuela today, stephen, is a situation where we are facing a dictator and you cannot treat and you cannot think about a dictator with the rules and the dynamics of a democracy. Its not a democracy, in any way. Yeah, but this. Crosstalk. Venezuela is a dictatorship and we need to do what it takes in order to bring down the dictator Nicolas Maduro who has been signalled by the un, not by me, not by the venezuelan people, not by the Political Parties but by the un as responsible for committing crimes against humanity. I will. Crosstalk. Listen, i. The un has identified more than 8,000 murders between 2014 and 2019 against people that have presented themselves against, or have positions against the dictatorship. Crosstalk so, thats what we are facing, we are facing a monster in venezuela. Leopoldo lopez, in the course of this interview, i promise you were going to discuss more more of what the people of venezuela are suffering right now, but i need also to focus on yourjudgement because not only did you get it wrong when you thought the military command would side with you in april 2019, you and guaido and others in the leadership then got it even more spectacularly wrong later in the year when you sent emissaries to miami to speak with a highly dubious former member of Us Special Forces who you appeared to be prepared to pay tens and tens of millions of dollars to organise some sort of half ba ked intervention from overseas to kidnap maduro. Now, to many people inside your country, thats simply suggested you were totally without credibility. Why did you do it . Well, as has been said many times since that happened, that episode was something that was made and put together by the dictatorship and it has also been presented with proof that the massacre that took place that morning was something that was built up and infiltrated by the dictatorship, so, its not true. No, hang on, hang on. It is not true that we were involved in that. But that cant be right because two people who were involved in the contacts in miami were Sergio Vergara and jj rendon who actually were part of the crisis Strategy Commission that included you. No, thats not true. I had no information of those talks, and, after president guaido knew about this, the information and the conversations with that group went to stalemate and they were completely blocked and it was very clear that the position of president guaido was not closed to that position and those two persons that were collaborators were no longer with the team of president guaido. He had to fire them but it was deeply embarrassing, wasnt it . And it allowed maduro to tell the venezuelan people that you, guaido and others were in the pocket of the americans. As i said before, stephen, i had absolutely nothing to do with that case, with that episode and president guaido made clear his position about that. And we believe that change needs to happen in venezuela and thats not the way that we believe change will happen in venezuela. Lets talk about the international context, you talked about the importance of the support you have received in the last year and two years from the United States, from latin american countries and from the European Union as well, but in the end, what matters most, i guess, is the support you got from the Trump Administration. Do you believe, in retrospect and certainly given what is happening in washington now with the likelihood, as we speak, of a biden presidency starting in january 2021, do you think you invested too much faith in donald trump and got too close to him . Well, we have faith in the International Community that supported us, and of course the Trump Administration supported the process to bring about change in venezuela and we are grateful for that. But i want to be very clear about the position of the United States with the case of venezuela. I believe that this may be the one issue that has bipartisan support. When guaido was invited to the state of the union in february of this year, he got a standing ovation from republicans and also from democrats. A standing ovation. And this is a bipartisan issue that we believe, no matter what happens with the us election, because thats a decision not of the venezuelan people but of the american people, we will have the support to bring about change, freedom and democracy in our country. Because this is not about ideology, stephen. This is not about left or right, this is not about republicans or democrats, this is not about the socialist party or the Popular Party in spain, no, this is about freedom and democracy. This is about millions of people being oppressed by a tyrant, a cruel and murderous tyrant, that continues to make the situation very difficult and very sad for the venezuelan people, forcing millions of people to flee our country so this is about freedom, and i know that you have many people that watch your programme and i would like to tell them that when they think about venezuela, when they read about venezuela, when they want to understand more about whats happening in our country, this is about the essence of freedom. This is about the essence of having the venezuelan people being able to make their choice about what their future should be about. Now, listen, you have told me many times about the suffering of the venezuelan people and i do not underestimate it for one second. Im just looking at statistics here. The economist magazine reckons that gdp is going to contract by 30 in venezuela in 2020, virtually 80 of the population are living in extreme poverty and 30 of children under five are suffering chronic malnutrition. That is the reality of venezuela today, and yet you, it seems, support the ever tougher us economic and financial sanctions on your country, which have just been ramped up even more with an end of the diesel for oil swaps which was helping the venezuelans get diesel into their country, something which humanitarian groups in venezuela say is going to make the situation for the ordinary people even worse. Why are you supporting this . Well, i appreciate that question, stephen, because many people would like to believe that the crisis in venezuela, the humanitarian crisis in venezuela is a consequence of the sanctions that have been imposed in venezuela, and that is simply not true. That is simply not true and we can show how the crisis in venezuela was developing in a very deteriorating way for many years before, in 2018, sanctions were imposed. So, fact number1 the situation in venezuela is not due to a consequence of the sanctions. And secondly, what we have been promoting, all of the humanitarian effort, which we believe needs to happen in venezuela today, yesterday, and of course we are working for that to happen immediately, needs to happen through the International Agencies and the Guaido Administration has been working with International Agencies from the un and from the regions, like the opec in order to bring about support for the humanitarian crisis. But i also want to be very clear about something. 0kay, be quick, because we are running out of time. In order to have the solution to the crisis, to the humanitarian suffering of millions of people in venezuela, there needs to be regime change. There is absolutely no way we can alleviate the suffering of the venezuelan people with maduro in power. If we want to bring about change, we have to have political change. Let me stop you, let me stop you there, because you say nothing but regime change. There are other opposition figures who think that your confrontation approach has failed and that there has to be a new strategy. For example, there are going to be National Assembly elections on december 6. Many opposition parties including yours are boycotting them but there are some Opposition Leaders who have decided that boycotting is simply not the right strategy. Henry falcon, chairman of the ap party says the ballot is the only instrument to achieve democratic change, the rest is just fantasy, and look at belarus. You take part in elections even if the government rigs those elections, the public will see what is happening and they will rally to the opposition. So why are you continuing your boycott . Let me start by saying, we have always believed in voting. I can tell you a personal commitment to voting. In 2015, there was a schedule for a parliamentary election. I was in prison, in the military prison that you visited in ramo verde, and i went into a Hunger Strike. 28 days of Hunger Strike with other political prisoners, other fellow political prisoners, and hundreds of people thatjoined us into a Hunger Strike in order to have the date for the election that was to take place in december of that year. And finally, they presented and published the date for that election. And we went to the election, and we won the election. We won two thirds of the National Assembly with a situation that was adverse to us and we won two thirds of the National Assembly and what maduro did, the dictator, what he did, was he took away all of the capacity, the constitutional attributions that the National Assembly has and basically put the assembly only as the legitimate symbol of what the people wanted, but without any capacity of legislating and having an impact with the executive, so we have been there, we have won those elections and what we said, stephen, this is very important, we want to vote, we want elections. I want you and all the people who are watching you to have this message very clear. We are about elections, we want elections, we want president ial elections because thats the only way in which change can come about in venezuela, so we are not going to participate in a fraud. All right, on, hang on. Im talking about all the Political Parties, and im talking also about most of the venezuelan people. 65 of the venezuelan people are saying that there are no conditions to go for the elections in the terms that the maduro regime wants. 85 of the opposition people dont want to go to this election because there are no conditions. All right, one last question and we will have to be brief. You are in madrid, Nicolas Maduro is still in the president ial palace. Juan guaidos popularity rating inside the country according to Data Analysis inside venezuela is 25 . On all of those measures, your capacity to engineer change is now lower than its ever been before. Have you lost hope . No, ive never lost hope, stephen. Ive never lost hope. And as i said before, we fall down and we rise up again, because this is about our lives. This is about what we believe. I went to jail, i spent four years in prison. Many people, many people have gone through very difficult suffering and our most important commitment is with hope. And they will not beat us because we will not surrender and i can assure you that. And thats not me saying this, there are millions of people who are committed to this fight until the end, and i ask for the International Community, the people of other countries, governments, parliaments, ngos, media, to understand that the crisis in venezuela needs your help as well. We need the support of every single individual in the planet earth that believes in freedom, in democracy, and the idea of all rights for all the people. We are out of time, but i do, leopoldo lopez, i do thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk, thanks a lot. Thank you, thank you stephen. Hello there, weve got a bit more murky weather to come over the next few hours. Now, this weather watcher picture, i quite like it. This is the fourth rail bridge of course or at least half of it. The other half is subsumed beneath low cloud, the fog and the murk. Futher southwards meanwhile, weve got these bands of rain crossing england and wales moving at a northeastward direction thanks to an area of low pressure. This weak low pressure is also drifting northeastwards. But some of this rain is actually washing the fog out of the atmosphere. So, its not quite as murky as it has been. Still some mist, still some low cloud. The really dense fog is away from that rain across northeast england, particularly eastern scotland and some patches through the central belt. And where it is worse, the fog, visibility down to 100 metres so it is really quite dense. Tricky travel conditions are to be expected if youre out and about over the next few hours. A mild night though and a mild start to tuesday. This little low pressure will continue to push its way northeastwards with a few more bursts of rain during the morning, a lot of cloud and remember the murky weather too for east scotland, northeast england. That mist and fog taking awhile to lift into low cloud. Through the day though, im optimistic that well see an improvement in the weather. A little bit more in the way of sunshine breaking through the cloud. There will still be a few showers dotted around, mind you, into the afternoon but its another mild one. Temperatures 13 15 celsius. Therell be some further change in the weather midweek though. Another area of low pressure is going to move in. This one is much more potent. This band of rain will get all of us, and the rain will become really quite heavy and squally. So, sudden heavy downpours and as well as that, its going to be very windy as well with the strongest winds just rolling in on and ahead of the front. Also becoming quite windyjust behind the front as it works and across the south coast of england. Now, the wind gusts could be stronger to bring down a few tree branches. So, we could see some localised disruption. And this band of squally rain with strong gusty winds will continue to push eastwards as we go on through wednesday night. Now, as that band of rain clears eastwards, well see something of an improvement in the weather to take us into thursday as this ridge of High Pressure builds in behind us. That means that well have some descending air. That will break the cloud up nicely and will see the weather brighten up with some decent spells of sunshine. Thursday probably the sunniest day of the week but then further changes on friday. More rain is on the way. This is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. 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