Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. The covid 19 pandemic has inflicted huge economic damage, but it has offered the Natural World a little bit of respite room to breathe. But what will come next . Will it be a return to the old ways of resource exploitation and consumption . My guest today is one of the uks best known naturalists and environmental campaigners, chris packham. Are we humans capable of fundamentally changing our priorities . Chris, thanks so much for inviting me to your home, but also this woodland, which i know means so much to you. Yes, well, this is my ecological home, theres no question of that. I love this patch of woodland. I feel more connected to this place than anywhere else on earth. Its an environment that i grew up in, this oak hazel, a bit of ash, a bit of yew woodland. And im comfortable here with all the colours, the sounds, the smells. Its a wonderful place to be able to spend my time. And ive spent more of it here this spring than ever before. I was going to say, the coronavirus pandemic has affected us all. How has it actually affected your life . My mother always used to say, youve got to find some good in some bad. And weve had terrible bad this spring and summer. But ive found good here because ive come to this place on a twice daily basis at least, and ive reconnected with nature in a way that i havent done since my teens. Because i had the capability to do that consecutively. So ive walked down this avenue of trees that we are strolling down now every day, and ive looked at all those little nuances, you know, changes in flower composition, changes in the length of the grass, changes in the sound made by different species of buzzing insects. And to have experienced that every day, to move through that process of growth and progress has been simply extraordinary. It was never an opportunity that i thought would be afforded me again. You of course are a naturalist, and this is your environment. There is a lot of talk generally about people in this time of pandemic, whether it be out of choice or necessity, sort of reconnecting with the earth, with the environment around them in a way that they normally do not do. Do you have any gut feeling that that is changing anything about our relationship with the planet . I think it could and it should. And we have an opportunity to make that happen. Many people who arent naturalists were stopped dead in their tracks. They were locked down. Outside of their windows, spring was exploding, and we had a very nice, warm, dry spring. They went into their gardens, into those green spaces where they were taking exercise. They heard birdsong, they saw things that they had the time to stop and listen, which is different from hearing, and they had the chance to look rather than see. But how far do you take this thought that there is something positive about the impact of the coronavirus pandemic . Because i noticed, for example, that a group that youve expressed some admiration and support for, Extinction Rebellion, are saying that this virus represents a huge opportunity its a phrase theyve used, and they talk about this being a moment when the human race must realise that it can change its relationship with the planet, and change it now. Do you go as far as that . Well, as my mother said, find some good in the bad. And Extinction Rebellion are saying that this has stopped us dead in our trucks, its not something we wouldve wanted or wished for, but it has therefore given us no choice but to manifest an opportunity to think again about how we were interacting with the Natural World. And lets face it as best we know at the moment, this whole pandemic is a result of the fact that we were abusing the Natural World, we were perhaps trafficking different animals from parts of that world alive in the markets where we were mixing them in an unnatural situation. And this disease has crossed into humans, which is something which we have feared for a long time. But how far do you take this thought . Because it strikes me that the danger is, a lot of people watching this programme around the world will have lost theirjobs, will find their own families in an economic crisis saying, its fine for this guy whos obsessed with nature to talk about seizing the positives, but frankly the negatives are overwhelming. And i need myjob back, i need the economy to kick start again, and frankly, i need the old ways to come back. So dont tell me that they cant come back. Well, im with you all the way until you got to old ways. Because im saying, heres an opportunity to generate new ways newjobs, new economies. Heres an opportunity to think that we can create a more sustainable existence for ourselves and other species on this planet, and we have the knowledge and technology, and now weve been forced into an opportunity to think about taking that. And here, we have an opportunity to put in play all those jobs to generate those economies, retrain people so that they can experience a similar quality to life that they had before, but one which is not a result of damaging the very world that they want to prosper in. Chris, i want to talk to you about an emotion that youve discussed and you clearly have felt and that is fear. Youve talked about how you felt fearful as a young person growing up in the 1970s, and youve said, i felt fear of the coming decade then, but now, ifeel a deeper, more profound fear. What is that fear . Well, i suppose in the subsequent period of time, i, we have become better educated as to what might manifest, a realisation of those fears, certainly in terms of the environment, etc. Weve come a long way in our terms of understanding the impacts of those in terms of science, a much better understanding of it. And ive matured as a person i suppose my life is moving closer to the end than the beginning, and im more conscious of my own mortality, and the less available time that i have to make a positive difference. You have said that you feel that things have become so much worse for the Natural World under your watch, and you feel that that represents a failure. There is no ambiguity about that. As a child, when i was interested in wildlife, we were all a lot less aware of the threats of the declines, of the changes in distribution in a negative aspect. But theres no excuse for my generation that graduated in the early 80s to have been at any stage unaware of whats been going on. So yes, on my watch as a conscious conservationist, weve seen ive presided over colossal losses in terms of our biodiversity. And we arentjust talking about the mega fauna in terms of tigers and rhinos, and elephants and so on. Were talking about the creatures which wouldve inhabited this garden. You know, im sat in a beautiful part of the new forest with no swallows. No nightingales, no spotted fly catchers. I rent the house from a lady who lived here in the 1970s, and she tells me that when i was listening to the clash and the sex pistols, she was listening to nightingales in this garden. Right now, i know you are particularly angry about the fate of birds of prey in those parts of the United Kingdom where commercial game shooting, particularly grouse shooting, is prevalent. And you appear to be accusing those behind that industry of deliberately killing endangered birds of prey, including eagles. It makes you angry, but how far are you prepared to go to try and change this . Firstly, there is no doubt that there is active persecution and most of that persecution is focused within the driven grouse shooting fraternity. Im not anti shooting there are lots of creative, sustainable, legal shooters out there. Many people see you as fundamentally anti shooting indeed, they characterize you as a man who wants to put hundreds, if not thousands of people out of work. Well, they ought to read my biography more closely. Ive only ever campaigned, both in the uk and overseas about illegal and what i see as unsustainable shooting. Shooting in the uk is very poorly regulated. It has been able to expand some practices without any regulation, and theyve got to a point where we need to challenge them. And all im doing is asking the shooting fraternity to ask themselves, is what we do sustainable . And there are laws against it, there are codes of conduct to which all the big estates in game keepers have signed up. You know, you appear to have not been satisfied with an industry which is making efforts to change the way. No, no, ithink, stephen, theyre saying theyre making efforts, but weve seen no improvement with those sorts of voluntary measures in, say, the last a0 years. You have, i noticed, since i last came here i noticed this time, quite a lot of cctv on the driveway up to your rather isolated house. Youve talked about threats, intimidation that have come with your campaigning work particularly on this issue, but well talk about others too. Are you now living with a real sense of fear for your own safety . I fear for the safety of my stepdaughter and my partner, who spend time at the house here. To be quite honest with you, all of the intimidation spurs me on. Thats what it comes down to. I think a tiny minority of people have knee jerked when theyve failed to fully understand what im asking for. And what im asking for is for them to change their minds. And you know the human species is remarkably intelligent, adaptable, and resourceful but its not good at changing its minds. You and i are not very good at changing our minds sometime, we need to be pushed into that, and we are resistant to it. And what im saying to those in the shooting fraternity is that what youre doing now doesnt have contemporary sustainability. You may be doing something which you consider a tradition and it may have been viable in the past, but its not viable any more. I need you to stop and think about it, measure it, quantify it, see if it is sustainable and, if it isnt, change your mind. Since we last met, and i was last here 5 6 years ago, it seems to me youve become more of an activist than a campaigner. Well, the worlds a worse place to live in. Im running out of time, ive got to step up my game. Are you taking less joy in the world than you were then . Oh, no, not at all. This little tatty patch of unkempt former lawn has given me enormous joy this spring. Ive come out here before ive come out, ive opened that window and listened to the rich, fluid songs of a song thrush, which sang all the way through spring and early summer whilst it was still dark. And, as the dawn crept up, ive come our and ive knelt with damp, dewey knees in that tangle of wild flowers and stuck my nose into an insects business. And i can tell you, its been so uplifting. Let me flip the focus away from the Natural World, which obviously stirs so much passion in you, to yourself. Look inward a little bit. You, again, since weve last met, have chosen to speak out very publicly about your own Mental Health issues and your midlife diagnosis with aspergers, on the autistic spectrum. Youve talked about it as a gift, as an asset which has helped you. In what ways . Well, i think in some ways it is a gift. Its just that when you open it, you dont always get what you want. Sometimes its the shiny package which allows you to see and sense the world in a different way. Sometimes its an intellectual asset which allows you to think not outside the box, because there is no box there are no boundaries to your thinking. Sometimes it allows you to develop levels of creativity physical, artistic, mental that you cant have. But of course, sometimes you open the box and it presents you with all sorts of challenges, many of which are brought about socially. And, in order to deal with those, you have to have a Management System, a functional Management System that will will allow you to maximise your capability to fulfil your life, you know, to have sustainable relationships, to work in teams, as we all have to do in some way, shape or form, and that always did and continues, to some extent, to present challenges. But i think one of the. Ill stop you there, im tempted to ask why on earth youve chosen to work in television for more than 25 30 years . Its a medium where youre exposed, where you have to communicate with huge numbers of people. It puts you in a very public place and yet, youre a person whos always said, i hate parties, i hate many aspects of socialisation, i much prefer being on my own, i prefer animals to people why on earth are you in telly . Well, because when i graduated from university as a very angry young punk rocker with a fixated interest on the Natural World, there werent an enormous number of employment opportunities. But there probably were a few that were less difficult for somebody with aspergers than this . I thought about working in museums, actually. I like collections and i like the idea of taxonomy, of classifying and ordering things. Thats part and parcel of the condition. And i did give that some serious thought. But the other thing youve got to think of is im looking at you today, im very conscious of the fact that i have to do that, and im conscious of the fact that, in orderfor us to have a good conversation, i have to look at you. So i can do that and i can train myself to do that. Most times times im just looking down the lens of a camera, itsjust a glass blob. And thats easier . The glass blob is easier . It is much easier, and the only thing happening over here Audrey Hepburn could be pole dancing and i wouldnt even notice. Because you know what its like, youre focused on that one task, which is communicating what you want to do. And, in terms of a broader audience, i think one of the other traits that you have to that i have to acknowledge is that, you know, there is a fearlessness and a tremendous sense of refuting injustice. Generally people with my condition dont like people getting away with things. My mother used to say, you never know when to stop, chris. You always go that one step too far. You always say that last thing that really, you shouldve kept to yourself. And thats part and parcel of my character. A journalist recently talked to you and made a comparison between you and Greta Thunberg and said its interesting that youre both on the aspergers spectrum, and you both have this desire to be Truth Tellers above all else, and are not interested in social convention or pragmatic approaches to problems, but just want to drill down to what they see as the truth without artifice. I think if you were to ask me, and i always have to answer honestly, what had hurt me most in my life . It wouldnt be the teeth that ive had removed or the cartilage that ive ripped up. It would be the lies that ive been told by other people. You know, lying is not something which people, perhaps like greta and i, are entirely comfortable with. Its not that we cant understand other people lying, we learned to understand them lying. Its not that we cant to lie ourselves we do tell lies, its part and parcel part of the way humans interact, lying. But i think that the truth, for me, as i see it and know it, and understand it at that point in time has to out. But do you therefore see most of the rest of us as serially dishonest, both to each other and ourselves . I can be frequently disappointed by other humans. Im disappointed by myself to a far greater degree, but weve already talked about my sense of failure when it comes to protecting the Natural World. Ive had other reasons to, you know, manifest a sense of failure in myself. But yes. But this strikes me as really important, for you as a campaigner and a leader on environmental issues. Because its not much fun for other people to think that you judge them as, well, judge them badly or negatively. The message seems to be that a lot of human beings frankly, as you see it, tell lies to themselves and others. They do, and its part and parcel of the way we exist. We are natural born liars. We do that to control our environment. Its one of the reasons why weve got a big brain it allows us to remember who weve lied to, whos lied to us, who has lied to each other. And in our society, that for us is one of the ways that we, you know, control the balance of power. We do that naturally, i dont think thats an unpleasant thing, but a biological phenomenon. You know, we are a long lived social animal. We have a big brain which allows us to remember who lied to who, who we can lie to and get away with, and who can we lie to and they suss us out. And thats very much part and parcel of who humans are. I dont look down upon, you know, humanity for that behavioural trait. You dont look down on people . I can look down on individuals, of course, who dont we all do that, who dont meet our standards of whateverwerejudging, music, art, politics or anything else. But collectively as a species, i have enormous admiration for humans. You know, we did produce van gogh and rothko, and jackson pollock. We did build notre dame. We did go to the moon. Theres another aspect of your view of humanity that im interested in. And youve talked about it, made documentaries about it, and that is the question of, how many humans this planet can sustain . We are currently at over 7 billion. 7. 4, yeah. You made a documentary which suggested that that could well get to 10 billion, and you were very worried about it. Ive read a lot of demographic experts in recent months saying, actually, the trends and they use the word jaw dropping the trends are jaw dropping in a different direction, that many countries, including japan could see the population of their country half by the end of the 21st century. Actually, we may never get to 10 billion, we may stick at around 8. 8 billion. Do you think in retrospect, you and others who talk about the dangers of overpopulation got it wrong . One of the things that i want to be really clear about is that, when ive talked about overpopulation, considering humans as organisms irrespective of their colour, race, political belief, so on and so forth what it is intrinsically linked with is consumption. Because you and i survive on the resource poverty of millions of other people in the world. We at this point in time in the uk consume two extra planets worth of resources. If we were in the united states, we would be consuming four extra planets worth of resources right now. And the only reason that we can get away with that and we are getting away with it is because of a lack of parity, the poverty gap. Because people in somalia are using a tiny, tiny fraction of the earths resources, and were using them all. So its notjust about numbers of humans, its how those humans are behaving. And what gives me gravest concern, of course, therefore is not the burgeoning population of sub Saharan Africa because, unfortunately, they are very, very poor. They arent using a lot of resources at this point in time. No, because their aspirations are just as great as ours. And why would they not be . Of course, why wouldnt they be . So surely, the logic of your message is. That we should lead the way. We should lead the way. At this point in time, we have the capacity to cut our consumption and develop means of living a fulfilling life without consuming as much. In a way, we have to make that their aspirations. I want to end by making this very, very personal. Because you talk with such passion and, in fact, perhaps the most passionate thing youve talked about today was this area of wild grasses and flowers right in front of our noses, which you described. Which has been distracting because its full of bugs and butterflies, and ijust saw a moth fly across here that i havent seen all summer. So yeah, difficult to keep my eyes off that. And when you talk like that, i get an almost spiritual sense from you. Yet youve always said that religion Means Nothing to you. But is there something that connects you to the world around you that you would describe in a way as being spiritual . Ive always been fascinated by religions because i need to understand humans in order to, you know, get them to do what i need to do. So when i have been fortunate enough to travel, im drawn to churches, monasteries and temples largely because they last longer in the landscape in many parts. But there isnt a spiritual cell in my body. I think we forget that we are living on this little blue jewel floating in all of that blackness at a unique moment in even our planets history. And we are conscious enough to be able to see and enjoy all of that beauty. How on earth can we countenance destroying it . And yet, here we are. Well, thats what made me set my alarm clock 50 minutes earlier this morning. Thats what gets me out of bed. I cant countenance it being destroyed. Ive got to get up, stand up for that Natural World. You know, ive got to be the voice of the song thrush and the voice of the poisoned eagle. And, you know, the voice of that oak tree which is being cut to facilitate a vainglorious railway project. We have to end there, but chris packham, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. Pleasure, thank you. Hello there. This heatwave continued across southeastern parts of the uk on sunday. The highest temperature was recorded in herstmonceaux in east sussex, 3a degrees, closely followed by 33 in farnborough in hampshire. More comfortable temperatures, more comfortable humidity through bedford and prestwick. It is going to be southeastern areas that continue to see the extreme temperatures over the next few days. But even here, temperatures will drop a bit by the end of the week. Together with the heat and humidity, theres an increasing risk of catching some torrential rain with some heavy and thundery downpours. Although, pinning down the detail is going to be rather difficult. As we head into the morning, we start with a fair bit of cloud around. Maybe some showers or rain developing, particularly across wales in the southwest. These could turn heavy and thundery, drift their way northwards through the irish sea, threatening northwest england, Northern Ireland and heading into southern scotland. There could be the odd sharp shower further east, but there will be a lot of sunshine around as well. Its going to heat up very quickly in england and wales, may well be a hotter day through the midlands 29, or even 30 degrees here. It gets more humid as well overnight across england and wales, temperatures perhaps dropping no lower than 17 19 degrees. Also be a bit warmer in scotland, and probably feeling a bit more humid here, i think, on tuesday. There may well be some further heavy and thundery rain to clear away from overnight, moving northwards, but the details have changed already for tuesday again with a scattering of showers developing further south, but also many areas still dry with some very warm sunshine. Those temperatures peaking at 3a 35 across the southeast of england. And probably a little bit higher across yorkshire and lincolnshire on tuesday. As we head into the middle part of the week, we are going to find a weather front developing across the uk. Were also finding falling pressure coming up from biscay heading across northern france. So every likelihood that there will be some further heavy and thundery rain, giving the risk of some flash flooding. One area of rain pushing across scotland, northern england, then we will see a scattering of heavy thundery downpours developing more widely later in the day probably for england and wales. Still 33 degrees perhaps in the southeast. Seven days in a row with temperatures above 30 celsius. It will be cooler, fresher across scotland and Northern Ireland. So, the threat of some very heavy rain and a lot of thunder and lightning over the next few days. Gradually, the temperatures will get back to near normal by the end of the week and continue that way into the weekend. This is bbc news. Im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. The World Bank Says they will be new systems are to deliver aid to the people of lebanon. We have to put systems in place that are radically transparent, inclusive, meaning reaching the people, and with good government. 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