In the past 2a hours its biggest daily increase since the start of the outbreak. Doctors injapan are warning the countrys medical system could collapse amid a rising number of coronavirus cases. President trump angers democrats after tweeting in support of protests against stringent lockdown measures in three democrat run us states. Now on bbc news, its hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. It may be a Global Pandemic but covid 19 has hardly united the world in a collective response. National governments are focused on self interest, not international cooperation, and that could spell disaster
for the worlds most Vulnerable People if and when the virus spreads through their communities. Well, my guest today is the former uk foreign secretary, now president of the International Rescue committee, david miliband. In this age of coronavirus, is the world getting the leadership it needs . David miliband, welcome to hardtalk. Thanks very much, good to be with you. This terrible pandemic represents a huge challenge right across the world. If we are to generalise massively at the outset of this interview, how do you feel the International Community is handling the response . To generalise, badly. We know that some countries have handled the disease well. Germany springs to mind. South korea as well, but we know that there has been far too much what i would call denialism, too much head in the sandism, too much hoping for the best and not enough of the kind of grip and unified action that is important, both in some countries im talking to you from the United States where the holes in the American Safety net have really been shown to be very serious but also internationally, where there has been so Little International leadership. The 620 seems asleep. The group of seven leading industrialised democracies could not come to an agreement on a statement and so, were face a crisis, the biggest crisis in 100 years in health terms, with a very weak governmental response where it matters. Surely, you cannot be surprised that leaders and governments around the world right now have turned inward and are putting all their priority on protecting
their own citizens . That is what they were elected to do. That is what they must do. That is absolutely right and, of course, local action is absolutely key, the isolation that everyone is trying to practise, but we all know that this is a disease of the connected world and a return to anything like normality, anything like the kind of Global Connections that existed before is not going to be possible without International Action that addresses the weakest links in the global chain, as well as takes local action. We cannot have a future for what the israeli author yuval harari calls a network of fortresses. That is no future at all to address the potential of humankind, nevermind the challenges for humankind and so, i think the wise leaders are taking local action, but theyre also thinking regionally and globally as well. But i dare say, a lot of people watching this interview will already be saying to themselves and in their heads to you,
saying, hang on a minute, we dont want to return to that completely open, globalised world. It is that very world which makes the possibility of the spread of pandemics like coronavirus so very easy. I think that we mustnt return to a world that has gaping inequalities and massive insecurities, but we dont want to live in a world where we cannot travel abroad and visit. We dont want to live in a world where trade is so circumscribed it does not address needs and so, i think that we must say that globalisation has to be changed, that we need a different kind of globalisation that is more equal and sustainable, but i think that a world of fortresses, national fortresses, would be a really dangerous lesson drawn from this crisis. Just a few days ago, your International Rescue committee released a long and detailed report looking at the most Vulnerable Countries and communities in the world and assessing just what coronavirus
might mean for them. You looked at south sudan, for example, which has a total of four ventilators in the entire country. North east syria has 11 and has not only a resident population, but also a refugee displaced persons population upwards of a million. Venezuela 90 of hospitals, your report says, lack critical supplies. Is it your belief that we have to assume coronavirus, this pandemic, is going to sweep through those most vulnerable places . Yes, i think its a matter of when and not if. Theres a short window of opportunity to take vital preventative steps hand washing facilities, triaging through fever testing, isolation centres for those who do get the disease, true information to tackle fake news that will also be rife, but i think weve got to prepare for a Health Emergency that is virulent and that is dangerous, given the density of population in many of the places you mentioned, many of the places that the International Rescue committee works, given the weakness
of the Health System and given the Underlying Health conditions. Remember, malnutrition 50 million children under the age of five around the world are acutely malnourished. These are all factors that drive the danger of the disease. I would also add that the report talks about a double challenge yes, the Health Challenge of coronavirus, but also the Collateral Damage to economy and society that threatens to be a second consequence of the disease. Our call is a very simple one simple to say, anyway, hard to do, but i think possible take the preventative steps now and dont let time go by. Build the Health Systems. Were not going to be able to get massive numbers of ventilators in, but we can get primary care going and protect those countries from the collateral economic and social damage. That is everything from the macroeconomic response by the International Monetary fund thats meeting this week, but its also the national and local efforts to make sure that aid reaches the people who need it. You say these are words that
are easy to deliver but harder to actually implement but, frankly, they are impossible to imagine being properly implemented. It is airily said by people such as yourself that we must make sure clean water for handwashing is available to all people all around the world, but there is no way in the next few weeks that is going to happen. That is just the grim reality that so many hundreds of millions of people have lived with for years. They do not have access to clean water. There is nothing airy about saying that we have staff on the ground 30,000 International RescueCommittee Staff in 200 field sites around the world ready to go to work and they can. They wont be able to go and get a hand washing station in every one of the houses of the 3 billion people who have no hand washing facilities in their own homes, but they can establish communal hand washing facilities for better than i station for 1000 people. And im certainly not pretending that we can make good the failings of the last 20 years in the next two weeks. That would be absurd. But, equally, i am saying that to pretend that nothing can be done is to condemn very large numbers of people to catch the disease at precisely the worst possible moment, when there are shortages of Global Medical kit that will exacerbate the problem. One of your focuses for you and you teams is very much for you and your teams is very much the displaced peoples from everywhere, from Northern Syria to bangladesh, where so many thousands of rohingyas are in those intensely crowded camps. Isnt the truth that, in those sorts of places, the local populations are evermore suspicious of displaced people, of migrants, that coronavirus is actually exacerbating tensions and hostilities and suspicions in a way that you and your team simply will not be able to overcome . That is certainly the case in some places, although, i was on on the phone to my team in bangladesh last week and they were very striking in the way they explained that, of course, the local host population has their own needs but actually
the kind of virulent anti refugee, anti refugee, anti internally displaced persons sentiment you described, hadnt yet come to the fore. It is a real danger and you are right to raise it. It is why we always say the services of the International Rescue committee are open to host populations as well as refugees and displaced people and, remember, when youre talking about displaced people, youre talking about internal displacement within a country. These are citizens of the country. The people in idlib, in north west syria, whose Health Facilities have been bombed by their own government, those are syrian civilians and so, its not a xenophobic issue thats raised there. Actually, its about fellow feeling for fellow citizens and i think its very important that we take seriously the danger that you raise, but we also recognise there is very good evidence about how to counter those tendencies and one way is to make sure services are open. Another way, which i think is vital, is to make sure there is economic support for areas that are hosting refugees and displaced people,
as well as social support. You are a former senior politician, former uk foreign secretary. You know more than most people that, in the context of a crisis which has senior economists across the world predicting that there will be an Economic Contraction between 5 and possibly 20 25 of gdp in the worlds richest nations over this year, it is impossible to imagine the kind of urgent, collective assistance being poured into the worlds disadvantaged places, the kind of initiative you talk of, when governments are looking at spiralling deficits, Massive National debt. They will simply be in no position to deliver on your words. I would say two things to what you said. First of all, it is very possible to imagine it. The difficulty is not imagining an appropriate response. The difficulty is predicting that it will happen, given the narrow myopia that dominates too much of the governing,
the governments around the world. The second thing that i think is very important is that the argument that quote unquote there is not the money to tackle global problems, that is being very clearly exploded by governments around the world who are discovering that, actually, while sustainable finances are important, in emergencies, you need to draw money. And so, for example, the call that we are making for special drawing rights for poor countries from the imf, that is something that tries to mirror some of the macroeconomic measures being taken in countries like the us or the uk and make sure they are available for countries that are more heavily indebted in the developing world. I would say to you it is possible to imagine it. The difficulty is doing it, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt stop arguing for it. It does not mean we should stop arguing for it. Do you think there should be a debt holiday that the imf, for example, should forgo debt repayment
from the worlds poorest countries for at least a year, if not for longer . That should certainly be on the table and i think it is absolutely vital that we do learn that countries who cannot get out of the debt trap even when they are trying to do the right thing need help. Just to give you one example, we know thatjordans debt to gdp ratio has gone from 50 to 90 plus in the time they have been hosting syrian refugees. The Austerity Programme in place hits both jordanians and syrian refugees. They need help to get a sustainable base for their public finances. This crisis should be the occasion to examine those issues. In a sense, and i dont mean this in a pejorative way, you are sitting there, lecturing the worlds current leaders, having been in politics yourself until very recently, you know how hard it is, but it seems to me you are also forgetting something really rather important about context. In your dayjob, you sit in new york city. I know you are not there at the moment for safety and Health Reasons but, nonetheless, you know very well what is happening in new york. To think the American Public will listen to your take on what needs to be done internationally when they are seeing their own country being ravaged by coronavirus and, for new yorkers, seeing their own city at the epicentre of the epidemic with so many people, particularly disadvantaged, black and latino new yorkers, being killed by this virus, do you really think that their horizon will go so very much wider . Look, im not lecturing anybody. Im as afraid as anyone else for my own family and community and the city im living in, and my own country i am a citizen of the uk and that is a very personal thing that we feel in this crisis and that this crisis in that sense is a great leveller. But the people in the bronx, the area of new york that has been hardest hit by this disease, the area dominated by african americans, by hispanics, the idea that helping them makes it impossible to help people
in south sudan where there are only four ventilators, that is really wrongheaded, and that is not about lecturing, and i think this striking thing if i look at my own organisation, we have not found that our donations have dropped through the floor in the last month. We have found people are grateful for what they have but they also recognise, some of them, that this is a global crisis. But i want to Say Something else to you that is even more important. I was in government in the 2000s and certainly during the Global Financial crisis. I watched as gordon brown, who you are having on your show, i watched as alistair darling, the chancellor, i watched as tim geithner, who is now co chair of the International Rescue committee in new york, the organisation i run, but was, at the time, the treasury secretary in the us, i watched the way they did address problems of their own country as part of a new, global compact. They took action in 2008, 2009, and 2010 that was Global Action that
did serve National Purpose as well, and i think that that lesson, and im not claiming credit for myself here i wasnt in the finance ministry i am observing the way leaders and finance ministers rose to the occasion in the Global Financial crisis and the need to rise to the occasion now. So, why are they not . How much of it would you put at the door of President Donald Trump . Well, theres no question that when the worlds leading democracy says America First means nationalism, that puts a block on international cooperation, theres no question that when the group of seven leading industrialised countries meet and cant come to an agreement on a statement because the us insists on calling the virus not covid, but wuhan virus, theres no question that American Leadership is absolutely essential. Now, theres an extra element to this today, because of course this is a crisis that is taking place when theres a second superpower. The chinese superpower is now is not a democracy, its an autocracy, and its drawing different lessons about the right kind of government. And so my point would be its especially important at this point that the worlds democracies notjust in the geographic west, but, if you like, in the political west theyve got to realise the stakes here, and the stakes are notjust about our local response to covid. Theyre about the global lesson about the right way to build a strong society, and one argument will be that its through a more autocratic government. Another argument led by countries like germany, which have shown how democracy is combined with public trust and effective action, to say no, its about a democratic future. And thats a really big argument. But it cant take place without america playing an important role. Cant take place without america playing an important role, you say, and yet donald trump is the reality of american political leadership. Youre not going to see him wave bye bye to the white house tomorrow. So, are you suggesting that with trump in the white house, everything you want to see in terms of International Leadership cannot happen . Well, first of all, the congress
of the us holds the Purse Strings for international aid, which weve been talking about in this interview, and that is being sustained and theres in fact a new and further supplementary bill with a 12 billion contribution, six times as much as the original World Health Organization un appeal. So, we shouldnt forget that there are a number of aspects to us global leadership. But when it comes to the politics of this, i do think that on the one hand, there is a debate about nationalism versus internationalism, and theres a second and related debate about democracy versus autocracy, and theyre going to come together, and i think its very important that we dont learn the wrong lessons from this crisis, because if were not careful, well build a network of fortresses, the nationalist network of fortresses that we talked about in the first part of this interview, and well find credit being claimed by authoritarian regimes for all the wrong reasons. But isnt the truth of this, and weve already talked about new york city,
that if one is honest about the way the coronavirus pandemic has affected the world, as an individual, one may well feel safer right now in singapore, seoul, maybe beijing as well, than one would feel in your home city, new york city, or indeed london. And that tells us something about what kind of governance has been most effective in tackling this challenge, doesnt it . Yes, theres no question that America First today means America First in the league for coronavirus cases. The holes in the us safety net, the fragmentation of political leadership, the polarisation and loss of public trust all of those are deep seated in the american crisis here. And on the other hand, youve got the extraordinary american response, which is public sector, private sector, Civil Society pulling together
in quite remarkable ways. So, youre seeing both sides of the american story, i think, in the really very serious conditions that exist here. Youre right, its safer to be in berlin or singapore at the moment than it is to be in new york, and that is something that is going to really affect americas ability for global leadership, because its going to have to deal with its own home problems if its going to be able to lead effectively internationally. And to quote the writersjohn micklethwait and adrian wooldridge, who write a lot on sort of Global Affairs with some authority, they say this confucian asia has taken government seriously in recent decades, while the west has allowed it to ossify. You were part of the western system. Did you and do you now acknowledge that ossification, if i can use that word, has happened, and post coronavirus, something really profound has to change . I think that you cant make a blanket Statement Like that. If you look at the figures coming out of germany, for example, or austria, you cant say that their system of government has ossified and failed. Its responded in quite an effective way. You can also find denialism in parts of asia as well, and so i am sceptical of saying that this is a confucian versus western issue. What i would say is that the politics of anger that has dominated the last ten years, that has dominated the period since the Global Financial crisis, the demonisation of foreigners, the demonisation of expertise that does not stand us in good stead for fighting the corona crisis. And so, if youre asking does a different kind of politics have to come out of this coronavirus, my answer would be yes. The world is being changed by this crisis. I dont think therell be a snap back to the status quo ante,
and there are different versions of that future, one is quite dystopian. It is nationalist, it is xenophobic, it does lead to really quite worrying whats called illiberal democracy you watch whats happening in hungary and anyone who cares about the future of europe and the future of democracy has got to be worried. 0n the other hand, there are lessons that i think speak to the kind of Global Action thats necessary, as well as the local systems of trust that are vital, and thats a contest about the lessons of this crisis even as were trying to battle it. Right. I mean, politics is a complicated mix of big trends and individual influencers, leaders in particular. Wheres the leadership coming from in the industrialised rich world . Youve made it very plain in this interview you dont think its coming from donald trump, at least not leadership that you want to see. So, where are you looking optimistically for the kind of leadership that gets us
through this and takes us into a better place . I think theres a real struggle at the moment. No country can say weve done it perfectly. Ive mentioned countries like germany and south korea, but i dont want to put all of my chips on those squares. Im saying that out of this crisis, there needs to be a new reckoning, and its got to be a reckoning about global, as well as local inequality. Yes, the issues in the bronx, but, yes, the issues in south sudan, its got to be a reckoning to do with quite profound issues about the way the democracies of the world build public trust and co operate with each other. It also raises some profound issues about privacy do you trust google or do you trust the government when it comes to the tracing of your contacts . Those are political contexts, and i think rather than looking to say, yes, this is the politician who is going to lead us out of the crisis, we dont know yet, we dont know how long this crisis
is going to last, but my argument is we cant no politician who thinks its going to go back to the status quo ante is going to succeed. Yeah, it seems to me nobody really denies that this will be some sort of watershed moment, and that history is going to move very fast. The historian ian golding put it very ian goldin i should say put it very clearly. He said, look, there is a way of thinking about this that relies on our knowledge of 20th century history. Will we react to this pandemic and its implications as we did after world war i, when the world basically went into camps, it was divided, fragmented, impoverished and it sowed the seeds for terrible conflict, or will we be more like we were after world war ii, when we built multilateral institutions, we tried to develop International Trust and a collective intent . Which way are we going . Well, i am an optimistic person even in pessimistic times. I think that rationality does beat quack theories, i think rationality tells you that rebuilding a global settlement is essential for a connected world, and covid is the disease of the connected world. World war i in its aftermath is a terrible lesson in failed leadership. We cannot afford that again. We need to see the kind of vision that helps drive the world forward after world war ii. And so even though these are dark times, i dont want to make them darker. And so ill put my bets on the optimistic side of human nature. David miliband, we have to end there, but thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello there. The weather today couldnt be more different between the north and south late. Even further east across the country after that dilemma is to start it has been brightening up. More stopping cloud has been affecting england and wales. Early on, we had some persistent rain through the midlands. That cloud has been affecting the uk bringing outbreaks of rain. Some sand and earlier across northern ireland, the far north of england and scotland. Sunshine. It will peter out Late Afternoon during the evening and many places becoming dry overnight. Maybe if you murk outbreaks across other parts of the uk, but pretty mild around here. A few more. There may be some frost in england, but they will be areas of mist and low cloud farming later, but should
best of. The piece will push that cloud toward the west, allowing more sunshine to ride through the midlands and eastern parts of england together with scotland. There will be more cloud for northern ireland, wales and the south west. There would be there could be showers 30 south west. As we look into the early part of next week, there are some very wet weather to come across europe, pushing its way into the mediterranean again. Everything is getting blocked off by that area of High Pressure in scandinavia. That is going to be dominating our weather. Lots of sunshine to come on monday. Just about dry everywhere. There is a bit more cloud to clear away from the far south west that could get a bit of an early rain. That will get blown away by a stronger wind. It will be much stronger wind. It will be much stronger winds on monday. It is an easterly wind, and of course with that wind direction it is always going to be a bit cooler right on the coast. Higher temperatures
further west. We could make temperatures of 19 across southern and western parts of wales. Further head into tuesday and wednesday, it stays windy. We do not really see the wind is dropping until thursday. It stays dry, but it also stays sunny. And it continues to get a bit warmer. The higher temperatures across my Western Areas and courtesy temperatures of 2122. Could see temperatures of 21 or 22. This is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Unions representing doctors and nurses in england express concerns about new guidelines allowing the reuse of personal protective equipment. Some uk hospitals warn they may run out of equipment this weekend. 0na on a Global Pandemic, we have to really focus on what we can do because there is a shortage of gowns, and in that situation, following World Health Organization guidelines has to be the way that we go. The department of health says over 15,000 patients have now died in hospital after testing positive for coronavirus in the uk an increase of 888. Russia records nearly 5,000 new cases of coronavirus
in the past 2a hours its biggest daily increase