Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20200416

Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. I am stephen sackur. It may be a Global Pandemic that covid 19 has hardly united the world in a collective response. National governments are focused on self interest, not International Cooperation and that could spell disaster for the world s most Vulnerable People if and when the virus spread through their communities. Well, my guest today is the former uk foreign secretary, now president of the International Rescue committee, david miliband. In this age of coronavirus, is the world getting the leadership it needs . David miliband, welcome to hardtalk. Thanks very much, good to be with you. This terrible pandemic represents a huge challenge right across the world. If we are to generalise massively, at the outset of this interview, how do you feel the International Community is handling the response . To generalise, badly. We know that some countries have handled the disease well. Germany springs to mind. South korea as well but we know there has been far too much what i call to nihilism, head on the sand, hoping for the best and not enough of the group and unified action that is important, both in some countries, im talking chiefly about the United States where the holes in their safety net have been shown to be very serious, but also internationally, where there has been is Little International leadership. The gym 20 seems asleep and the group of seven industrialised democracies could not make a statement and so we face a crisis, the bigger spices in 100 yea rs crisis, the bigger spices in 100 years in health terms and we have a very wea k years in health terms and we have a very weak governmental response where it matters. Surely, you cannot be surprised that leaders and governments around the world right 110w governments around the world right now have turned inward and are putting all their priority on protecting their own citizens . That is what they are elected to do and it is what they must do. That is absolutely right and of course local action is absolutely key, the isolation that everyone is trying to practise, but we all know this is a disease of the connected world and a return to anything like normality, anything like the kind of Global Connections that existed before is not going to be possible without International Action that addresses the wea kest International Action that addresses the weakest links in the global chain as well as takes local action. We cannot have a future for what the israeli author ferrari calls a network of fortresses, that is no future at all to address the potential of humankind never mind the challenges of humankind and i think the wise leaders are taking wise action but a thinking regionally and globally as well herrari. Idsa many watching this interview would already be saying to themselves and to you that we dont wa nt to themselves and to you that we dont want to return to that completely open, globalised world. Idsa, many watching. That makes the spread of pandemics so very easy. We mustnt return to a world with inequality and insecurities but we dont want a world where we cannot travel abroad and visit and where trade is so circumscribed it does not address needs and so i think that we must say a globalisation has to be changed and we need a different kind of globalisation that is more equal and sustainable, but i think that i world of fortresses, national fortresses, would think that i world of fortresses, nationalfortresses, would be a dangerous lesson to draw from this crisis. Just a few days ago, your International Rescue committee released a long and detailed report looking at the most Vulnerable Countries and communities in the world and assessing just what coronavirus might mean for them. We looked at south sudan, for example, which has a total of four ventilators in the entire country. Syria has 11 and not only has a resident population but also a refugee displaced peoples of 11 million, venezuela lacks supplies. Is it your belief that we have to assume coronavirus, this pandemic, will sweep through those most runnable places . Yes, a matter of when and not if. A short window of opportunity to take vital preventative steps, hand washing facilities, triaging through testing, isolation centres for those who get the disease. True information to tackle fake news which is also right. But we have to prepare for a Health Emergency that is virulent and dangerous, given the density of population in many of the places you mentioned, many of the places you mentioned, many of the places that the International Rescue committee works, given the weakness of the Health System and given the Underlying Health conditions, remember, malnutrition, 50 million children under the age of five are acutely malnourished. These are all factors that drive the danger of the disease. I will also add that the report talks about a double challenge, yes, the health that challenge, yes, the health that challenge of coronavirus but also the Collateral Damage to economy and society that threatens to be a second consequence of the disease. Alcohol is a simple one. Simple to say, anyway, hard to do. Take the preventative steps now and dont let it go by our call is simple. We will not get massive numbers of ventilators in but we can get primary care in and protect countries from the collateral economic and social damage, that the other thing from the macroeconomic response from the International Monetary fund meeting this week but also the national and local efforts to make sure that aid reaches the people who need it. You say these words to deliver our easy but harder to deliver, and frankly impossible to deliver, and frankly impossible to be implemented. It is airily said by people like yourself that we must make sure clean water is available to people all around the world but there is no way in the next few weeks that will happen. That is the grim reality that so many hundreds of millions of people have lived with for years. They do not have access to clean water. There is nothing airily saying about saying that we have staff on the ground, 30,000 International Rescue Committee Staff into hundred field sites in the world, ready to go to work and they can, they wont be able to go and get a hand washing station in every one of the houses of3 station in every one of the houses of 3 Million People who have no hand washing facilities in their homes but they can establish communal and washing facilities for one in 1000 people and im certainly not pretending we can make would the failings of the last 20 years in the next two weeks, that would be absurd but equally to pretend we cannot do anything and cannot be done, and to leave those people in this situation, whether shortages and Global Medical kit that will exacerbate the problem. One of the focus of your teams are the displaced people, Northern Syria to the bangladesh were so many thousands wrecking gains are in those crowded camps is it true that those people are ever more suspicious of displaced people add corona virus is exacerbating tensions and suspicions ina way exacerbating tensions and suspicions in a way that you and your team will not be able to overcome . Rohingans. There it is the case in some places and i was on on the phone to my team and they were striking in the way they explained the way that the local host population has their own needs but actually the kind of virulent anti refugee sentiment has not come to the fore, and it is a real danger and you are right to raise that and thatis and you are right to raise that and that is why we say the services of the International Rescue committee are open to host populations as well as refugees and displaced people and remember when youre talking about displaced people, were talking about internal displacement in a country, citizens of the country, the people in italy and north west area, his facilities are bombed by their own government, they are syrian civilians and this is not xenophobia, this is about filling for their fellow citizens and it is very important we take seriously the danger you raise but we also recognise there is evidence of how to counter those tendencies and one way is to make sure services are open. Another way, which i think is vital, is to make sure economic support for areas that refugees and displaced people as well a social support. You are a former senior politician, former uk foreign secretary annie no more than most that in the context of a crisis, which are senior economists predicting that there will be an Economic Contraction between 5 25 of gdp in the world s richest nations, over this year it is impossible to imagine the kind of urgent, collective assistance being poured into the world s disadvantaged places, i kind of initiative you talk of, when governments are looking at spiralling deficits, Massive National debt. There is simply going to be in no position to deliver on your words. I would say two things to what you said. First of all, it is very possible to imagine it. The difficulty is not imagining the appropriate revolt response, the difficulty is predicting how it will happen given the myopia that dominates too much of the governing, around the world. The second thing that i think is very important is that i think is very important is that the argument that quote unquote there is not the money to tackle global problems is being exploited by governments around the world who are discovering that actually sustainable finances are important, in emergencies, you need to draw money and so for example the call we are making for special drawing rights for poor countries from the imf, that is something that tries to mirror some of the macroeconomic measures being ta ken mirror some of the macroeconomic measures being taken in countries like the us or the uk and make sure they are available for countries that are more heavily indebted in the developing world. I would say to you it is possible to imagine it. The difficulty is doing it but it doesnt mean we shouldnt stop arguing for it. Do you think there should be a debt holiday that the imffor should be a debt holiday that the imf for example should forgo Debt Repayment from the world s Poorest Company countries for at least a year or longer . That should be on the table and it is vital that we do learn that countries who cannot get out of the debt trap even though that they are doing the right thing need help. For example, we know that jordans debt to gdp ratio has gone from 50 90 plus in the time they have been hosting syrian refugees. There has Austerity Programme in place hits bothjordanians and syrian refugees. They need help to get a sustainable base for that finance. This crisis should be the occasion to examine those issues. Finance. This crisis should be the occasion to examine those issuesm a sense and i dont mean this in a pejorative way, you are sitting there, lecturing the world s current leaders, having been in politics yourself recently, you know how hard it is but it seems to me you are also forgetting something really rather important about context. In your day job really rather important about context. In your dayjob you seek in new york city, i know you are not there at the moment for safety and Health Reasons you sit in new york city but nonetheless you know what is happening in new york. To think the American Public will listen to your take on what needs to be done internationally when they are seeing their own country being ravaged by coronavirus and for new yorkers, sing their own city at the epicentre of the epidemic with so many people, particularly disadvantaged, black and latina new yorkers, being killed by this virus, do you really think that their horizon will go so very much wider quasi low look, im not lecturing anybody. Im as afraid for anyone else for my own family and community and the city im living in. Else for my own family and community and the city im living inlj else for my own family and community and the city im living in. I am a citizen of the uk. That is a very personal thing that we feel in this crisis and that this crisis in that senseis crisis and that this crisis in that sense is a great leveller. The people in the bronx, the area in your greatest hit by this disease, the area dominated by African Americans and hispanics, the idea that helping them makes it impossible to help people in south sudan where there are only four ventilators, that is really wrongheaded and that is not about lecturing and i think this striking thing if i look at my own organisation, we have not found that donations have dropped through the floor in the last month. We have found people are grateful for what they have but they also recognise, some of them, that this is a global crisis. To Say Something else to you thatis crisis. To Say Something else to you that is even more important. I was in government in the 2000 and certainly during the Global Financial crisis. I watched as gordon brown, he had on the show, i watch the chancellor, the now co chair of the International Rescue committee in new york, the organisation i now run, now the treasury secretary in the us when i was in government, i watch the way they address problems in their own country as one of a new global contract. They took action in 2008, 2009, and 2010 that was Global Action that served National Purpose as well and i think that that lesson, and im not claiming credit for myself, i was not the finance minister, i am observing the way ministers and ministers raced to the occasion in the gfc and the need to rise to why are they not . There is no question that when the world public leading democracies in America First means nationalism, that a block on International Cooperation, there is no question that when the group of seven leading industrialised countries meet and cant come to an agreement on a statement because the us insist on calling the virus not covert 19, but wuhan virus, there is no question that American Leadership is absolutely essential. There is an extra element of this, because this isa extra element of this, because this is a crisis that is taking place when there is a second superpower. The chinese superpower is now is not a democracy, it is drawing different lessons about the right kind of government and my point would be it is especially important at this point that the worlds democracies, not just point that the worlds democracies, notjust in the geographic west, but the political west, they have to realise the stakes here, and the sta kes a re realise the stakes here, and the stakes are not just realise the stakes here, and the stakes are notjust about our local response to covid 19. They are about the global lesson about the right way to build a strong society, and one argument will be that it is through more autocratic government. Another argument led by countries like germany which have shown how democracies combined with public trust to say no. It is about a democratic future. That is a really big argument. It cant take place without america playing an important role. Cant take place without america playing an important role, you say, and yet donald trump is the reality of american political leadership. You are not going to see him waved goodbye to the white house tomorrow. Are you suggesting that with donald trump in the white house, everything you want to see in terms of International Leadership cannot happen . First of all, the congress of the us holds the Purse Strings was national aid, which we have been talking about in this interview, and it has been sustained and there is a new and further supplementary bill with 12 billion contribution, six times as much as the original world health 0rganisation un appeal. So we shouldnt forget that there are a number of aspects to us global leadership. But when it comes to the politics of this, i do think that on the one hand there is a debate about nationalism versus internationalism, and a second and related debate about democracy versus autocracy and they will come together and i think it is very important that we dont learn the wrong lessons from this crisis because if we are not careful, we will build a network of fortresses that we talked about in the first part of this interview, and we will find credit being claimed by authoritarian regimes for all the wrong reasons. But isnt the truth of this, and we have already talked about new york city, that if one is honest about the way the coronavirus pandemic has affected the world, as an individual, one may well feel safer right now in singapore, seoul, maybe beijing as well than one would feel in your home city, new york city, or indeed london. And that tells us something about what kind of governance has been most effective in tackling this challenge, doesnt it . Yes, there is no question America First today America First in the league or coronavirus cases. The holes in the us safety net, the fragmentation of political leadership, the polarisation and loss of public trust, all of those are deep seated in the american crisis here. And on the other hand, you have got the extraordinary american response, which is public sector, private sector, Civil Society pulling together in quite remarkable ways. So you are seeing both sides of the american story, i think, in the really very serious conditions that exist here. You are right it is safer to be in berlin or singapore at the moment than it is to be in new york, and that is something that is going to really affect americas ability of a global leadership, it has to deal with his own home problems if it is going to be able to lead effectively internationally. The quote the writersjohn nicholls wait and Adrian Aldridge who write a lot on Global Affairs with some authority, they say this, asia has taken government seriously in recent decades while the west has allowed it to survive. You were part of the western system. Did you and you now acknowledge that ossification, if i can use that word, has happened, and post coronavirus, something really profound has to change . post coronavirus, something really profound has to change . I think that you cant make a blanket Statement Like that. If you look at the figures coming out of germany, for example, you cant say that their system of government has ossified and failed. It has responded in quite effective way. You can also find the nihilism in parts of asia as well, and so i am sceptical of saying that this is a confucian versus western issue. What i would say is that the politics of anger that has dominated the last ten yea rs, that has dominated the last ten years, that has dominated the period since the Global Financial crisis, the demonisation of foreigners, the demonisation of expertise, that does not stand us in good stead for fighting the corona crisis. And so if you are asking, does a different kind of politics have to come out of this coronavirus, my answer would be yes. The world is being changed by this crisis. I dont think there will be a snap back to the status quo, and there are different versions of that beautiful to what is quite dystopian. It is xenophobic, it does lead to really quite worrying, what is called a liberal democracy. You watch what is happening in hungary and anyone who ca res happening in hungary and anyone who cares about the future of europe in the future of democracy has got to be worried. 0n the other hand, there are be worried. 0n the other hand, there a re lessons be worried. 0n the other hand, there are lessons that ice thinks speak to the kind of Global Action that is necessary as well as the local systems of trust that are vital. And thatis systems of trust that are vital. And that is a contest about the lessons of this crisis even as we are trying to battle it. Right. Politics is a completed mix of trends and individual influences, leaders in particular. There is a leadership coming from in the industrialised rich world . You have made it very plain in this interview you dont think it is coming from donald trump, at least not leadership you would want to see. So where are you looking optimistically for the kind of leadership that get us through this and takes us into a better place . I think there is a real struggle at the moment. No country can say we have done it perfectly. I have mentioned countries like germany and south korea, but i dont wa nt to germany and south korea, but i dont want to put all of my chips on those squares. I am saying that out of this crisis, there needs to be a new reckoning, and it has got to be a reckoning, and it has got to be a reckoning about global as well as local inequality. Yes, the issues in the bronx, but the issues in south sudan, there has to be a reckoning to do with quite profound issues about the way the democracies of the world beyond public trust and co operate with each other. It also raises some profound issues about do you trust google or the government when it comes to the tracing of your contacts. Those are political, and i think rather than looking to say, yes, this is a politician that will lead us out of the crisis, we dont know yet, we dont know how long this crisis will last, but my argument is we cant, no politician who thinks they will go back to the status quo is going to succeed. Yes, it seems to me nobody really denies that this will be some sort of watershed moment, and that history is going to move very fast. The historian ian golding put it, ian golding i should say, he said, look, there is a way of thinking about this that relies on our knowledge of 20th century history goldin. Will we react to this pandemic and its implications as we did after world wari implications as we did after world war i when the world basically went into camp s comment was divided, fragmented, impoverished and sowed the seeds of terrible conflict, or will we be more like we were after world war ii when we built multilateral institutions, we tried to develop International Trust and a collective intent . Which way are we going . Well, i am an optimistic person even in pessimistic times. I think that rationality does beat quack theories, i think rationality tells you that rebuilding a global is essential for a connected world and covid 19 is the disease of the connected world, world war i is aftermath is a terrible lesson in failed leadership. We cannot afford that again. We need to see the kind of vision that helps drive the world forward after world war ii, and so even though these are dark times, i dont want to make them darker. So i will put my bets on the optimistic side of human nature. David miliband, we have to end there, but thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello there. Yesterday was a warmer kind of day. Again, plenty of sunshine for most of us, withjust a little bit of high Cloud Crossing the skies. We had some rather dramatic skylines, for example, in the shropshire area. Now, it was the north east of the uk that had the days highest temperatures. Durham and parts of aberdeenshire seeing highs of 21 degrees, but look at this drop in temperatures on the way through thursday. For some, its going to be around 10 or 11 degrees cooler. The cooler weather is arriving with a cold front. Its this stripe of cloud thats sinking its way southwards across scotland right now, leaving the clearest of the skies and the lowest temperatures further south across england and wales, where there could just be a few patches of frost in the countryside. For thursday, well, it gets a little warmer across england and wales, but across the far north of scotland and increasingly into eastern scotland and north east england, weve got the colder air setting its way in. Now, into the afternoon, we may well see a few brighter spells for 0rkney and shetland, but otherwise, for much of scotland, its a cloudy day. The cloud could be thick enough for an occasional spot of rain. Not amounting to too much, mind you. For most, it will stay just about dry. Its going to feel a lot colder, though. Temperatures 9 to 11 degrees, 11 degrees the high in durham rather than the 21 we had on wednesday. Further southward across england and wales, again, most areas will have lots of dry weather and sunshine. Therell be a little bit more in the way of higher cloud moving in, and, yes, we could see just a few isolated showers across south west england, southern wales, but even here, the majority will probably stay dry. A little warmer, temperatures into the low 20s more widely. For friday, an area of low pressure thats been affecting spain and portugal wobbles a little bit close to our shores, and it looks increasingly likely that well see some rain arriving. Although the amount of rain you see from place to place across parts of england and wales is going to vary significantly. Still mild, but those temperatures are falling back a little bit. Highs of 17 in london, the cold air in scotland tending to seep down some of these eastern areas of england, knocking the temperatures back in norwich to just 12 degrees. Now, the weekend, scotland stays fine and dry throughout, but it looks like we could see a little bit of patchy rain still left over across parts of england, wales and maybe Northern Ireland on saturday. Sunday, for all of us, looks like the driest day of the weekend. Thats your latest weather. This is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world President Trump says the us is passing the peak of new coronavirus infections, despite the number of deaths doubling in a week. The data suggest that nationwide we have passed the peak new cases. A landslide election victory for south koreas governing party and its president as their handling of the coronavirus outbreak pays handsome dividends. Is europe about to open up again . From being the epicentre of the crisis, now some countries are moving to ease restrictions. As the uks lockdown is expected to be extended by three weeks, social care chiefs condemn the governments handling of the pandemic as shambolic